Topic: was IGA robbed?

[crisis]

*WARNING* controversial debates incoming


with the Lords of Shadow saga soon coming to a close (or so we've heard), i've been thinking lately not just about the future of the franchise, but what has come before it. castlevania has had a rich history of 25+ years. the rebooted version first began development almost 7 years ago, and Mercurysteam/Dave Cox has promised that they will conclude their "vision" of castlevania upon lords of shadow 2's release.

for those of us that still hold the classic canon dear to our hearts, we know that former producer Koji Igarashi also had a similar "closure" for what his vision of the series was. when Aria of Sorrow was first revealed in 2003, many were shocked with the fact that Dracula met his ultimate end in the year 1999. since, there have been several games teasing this event, from Portrait of Ruin to Curse of Darkness. many would argue that IGA hasnt necessarily been given a "fair shake," however those would counter that he had plenty of times to "close things up." alas he has been relegated to "side-projects" such as Harmony of Despair (which also somewhat teases 1999, in Julius' bio). why hasnt Konami allowed him to make this game?

other than that, he has repeatedly stated in interviews that his favorite game is CVIII: Dracula's Curse. he has said numerous times that he would love to remake it, similar to The Dracula X Chronicles. yet, this has never come to pass. i doubt there are very few people here that would object to a CVIII remake, with updated visuals, new artwork and such. in fact many can argue that this may be what the series needs in order to "revitalize interest" in 2D Castlevania, and quite frankly, with his excellent work on Adventure ReBirth and DXC, i believe he's perhaps one of the few producers that can successfully translate Dracula's Curse into 2014.

so do you feel that IGA was robbed? why has MercurySteam been given the opportunity to finish their saga, but not IGA? 1999 and CVIII ReBirth would've been perfect opportunities for him to say "good-bye" to Castlevania and move on to other endeavors, and we would finally have closure to the classic canon, los-saga, and a clean slate for a true rebooted franchise. what you think?

[GuyStarwind]

That's a good question. I think if he doesn't ever return(which is probably the case sadly) then yes he was robbed. I think both CV3 remake and 1999 would had been great ways to say good bye. I have no qualms with new looks on the series but I don't think Iga had that proper good bye.

[Dremn]

I believe IGA had plenty of chances to make the 1999 game, but for whatever reason he just did not do it. Maybe he was blocked by Konami, who knows, but that game should have happened awhile ago. IGA trying to cater to younger audiences with the generic anime style of Dawn of Sorrow and Portrait of Ruin probably didn't do him any favors, alongside the poor sales of the DS games.

As much as I love the old canon, the way IGA was going about it was sort of weird in hindsight. Not that I don't appreciate the games he made, but introducing Soma into the canon and making 1999 the definitive end of Dracula pretty much wrote the series into a corner. I would have loved to see the 1999 game and Dracula's Curse remake come to fruition, perhaps there's still a chance for both to become a reality. It's all up to Konami.

I don't believe IGA was "robbed," considering the poor sales of the recent titles I think it was a given IGA wouldn't have a grip on the series much longer, or Konami would have locked Castlevania away in the vault forever. In a way, I see LoS as a necessity/blessing for the potential future of the series. Not from a gameplay point, but in vitality.

[e105beta]

MercurySteam has made 3 games and is leaving. IGA was on his 13th game by the time MercurySteam released their first game, and from the sound of it, didn't have any real intention of creating the 1999 game for fear of disappointing fans. You can't really compare the two in terms of "opportunity to finish their saga".

I think he waited too long. Everyone talks about how MercurySteam just needs to finish their games and GTFO, because finishing a series is such a good thing, but then people talk about bringing IGA back when he was the ultimate offender of never getting to the point. Instead of ending his timeline properly, he started popping out side-stories like Curse of Darkness, Portrait of Ruin, and Order of Ecclesia.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see Julius's tale, but I don't think IGA was "robbed" in any sense of the word.

[Flame]

To be honest? He had PLENTY of time to make the Demon Castle wars.

Also, you are assuming he ever intended to make it at all. It's nothing new for games to have big background events pertinent to their story which are never explored as games.

Mega Man has the Elf Wars, the massive cataclysmic war between the X and Zero series, which has never been made a game, and never will be, because it's just that. background. It exists to set up the plot, for world building. IGA decided, "Hey, let's make a game about Dracula's reincarnation that plays like Symphony"

When ironing out the story for that, particularly when the Character of the current Belmont comes up, they concoct a backstory that ties him with the protagonist and the setting and timeframe of the game. That event being this massive final battle between Belmonts and Dracula.

IGA had plenty of time to make it, instead he made DoS, PoR, OoE, and 2 PS2 games, along with judgement. That's 3 sequels,(to games that did not need them) a prequel, an original timeline fit story, and a fighting game that's iffy on the plot and uses time travel as an excuse to toss a bunch of CV characters together. Then there's HoD, which i dont know what to call other than an odd experiment. That's a total of 7 games. 7! Instead of making Dawn of Sorrow, he could have made the Demon Castle War. Instead of making PoR or CoD, both sequels which shit on the games that came before them, he could have made the DCW.

He had his chance quite frankly, and he blew it. That is, again, if he ever intended to make a DCW game at all.

You mention that CV3 remake too, well, he had his chance, again. Instead of making those games, he could have made a CV3 remake like Dracula X Chronicles.

so to finalize,

so do you feel that IGA was robbed?

Nope. I think he had his chance.

why has MercurySteam been given the opportunity to finish their saga, but not IGA?

because their saga is only 3 games long, while IGA's was never ending. It's hardly comparable. LoS is also outsourced. MS is doing the developing, with Konami just supervising and publishing. So money works a bit differently.

Also, IGA was building off of the old timeline and trying to cram as much as he could into it until it burst, and not all of it for the better. Bloodlines and CV3 did NOT need sequels. neither did Aria. he wasted time and money on needless sequels that were very poor in terms of original content, full of rehashed graphics and gimmick driven gameplay. As a result, Castlevania sold less and less. After all, he didn't try to appeal to younger gamers on a whim with Dawn and Portrait. it was because sales were staggering, so he tried to widen the audience by appealing to little kids. Itdidn't work and he tried to go back with OoE, but too little too late.

Meanwhile, LoS is supposedly the best selling CV game of all time. So obviously MS gets their chains loosened a little to flex their muscles with the sequels. Which from the start mind you, they said would be a 3 parter only.

The choice of platform also counts immensely. IGA was working on handhelds And while the GBA was the hot thing to have back in it's day, (it was very much the ONLY thing to have, since Nintendo still had the stranglehold on the handheld market) the DS, with competition from the PSP, became branded as a kiddie system, that had kid games. people who before had only 1 choice, flocked to the Sony handheld that had superior hardware and was marketed as a cool system, while Nintendo was doing that thing with the apple style designs and casual market appeal.

TL;DR on that- the DS was, especially late into it's life, branded a system for little kids, so not as many people who would normally have bought CV games, bought them, because of the system. Not that the PSP actually fared much better when Konami tried it. But the PSp had a very weird sell in Japan.

Console games meanwhile, are whats considered top shit, and IGA's foray into 3Dvania was received with mixed emotions. lament was alright, but didn't look that great, and was sort of weird. CoD compounded LoI's problems with more problems, including story and a character so blatantly trying to imitate Alucard that he makes Juste look tame by comparison.

Then Konami made the gamble on Judgement instead of the currently in early production Western pitch of a CV1 remake, which was re-branded an original IP as a result. E3 was all about Judgement for Konami that time, with Lords of Shadow the side next gen game. It was a Symphony moment, basically. They bet on Judgement, with LoS as the side game, and judgement was a critical flop, while Lords of Shadow went on to become a best seller when it released.

From there, business sense. IGA's games got worse and worse results, while the outsourced studio got great results. So IGA was given a last chance, which turned out to be CVHD as an experiment. It predictably got mixed reception for different reasons, and was overshadowed by Lords of Shadow.

The promotion on LoS was also really well done. I don't recall CV having that level of promotion before.


So there, that's my 2 cents. Well, more like 10 bucks.

[darkwzrd4]

I don't think he was robbed. Especially in terms of the 1999 game. He had years to make it. So, unless Konami told him not to, he had plenty of time. As for what happens after LoS2 is out, I say don't give the series back to IGA. His method of game-play first and then shoe-horning the game into the timeline is ass-backwards. Love them or hate them, MS did their vision of CV right. They thought it out ahead of time and knew where they wanted to go in terms of story and build their saga based on that instead of IGA's method.

[Flame]

To be fair, gameplay SHOULD come first.

The problem with IGA, isn't that he went gameplay first and story second, it's that he always designed a gimmick, and built the gameplay and story around the gimmick. Some gimmicks like Aria's soul system were unintrusive enough and meshed well enough  with the SoTN style gameplay that it worked. It replaced Alucard's relics and sub weapons.

But the teamwork in PoR or glyphs in OoE (sorry guys), or the innocent devils in CoD really felt forced. LoI worked, for instance, because it's gimmick was simple. Relics that changed the way your sub weapons worked. It was simple and unintrusive, and you could swap them on the fly for different sub weapon effects.

[Kingshango]

MercurySteam has made 3 games and is leaving. IGA was on his 13th game by the time MercurySteam released their first game, and from the sound of it, didn't have any real intention of creating the 1999 game for fear of disappointing fans. You can't really compare the two in terms of "opportunity to finish their saga".

I think he waited too long. Everyone talks about how MercurySteam just needs to finish their games and GTFO, because finishing a series is such a good thing, but then people talk about bringing IGA back when he was the ultimate offender of never getting to the point. Instead of ending his timeline properly, he started popping out side-stories like Curse of Darkness, Portrait of Ruin, and Order of Ecclesia.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see Julius's tale, but I don't think IGA was "robbed" in any sense of the word.

Pretty much my thoughts as well.

[X]

I'm with Flame and darkwzrd4 on this topic. IGA had plenty of chances to tell the DCW tale, but nothing ever came of it. Just a bunch of hype over several games that lead to the creation of an out-of-control Juggernaut. The 1999 tale at this point is so engrained into the minds of CV fans that they have their own personal interpretations about it. Everything from story and character involvement, to gameplay and graphics. Right now it would be a big risk to try and bring about such a game with so many expectations. Instead of creating this game after the success of Area of Sorrow, he decided to wait and do a bunch of side stories that were completely unnecessary & contradictory. IGA waited too long. No, he wasn't robbed by Konami. He did this to himself.

[darkwzrd4]

To be fair, gameplay SHOULD come first.

The problem with IGA, isn't that he went gameplay first and story second, it's that he always designed a gimmick, and built the gameplay and story around the gimmick. Some gimmicks like Aria's soul system were unintrusive enough and meshed well enough  with the SoTN style gameplay that it worked. It replaced Alucard's relics and sub weapons.

But the teamwork in PoR or glyphs in OoE (sorry guys), or the innocent devils in CoD really felt forced. LoI worked, for instance, because it's gimmick was simple. Relics that changed the way your sub weapons worked. It was simple and unintrusive, and you could swap them on the fly for different sub weapon effects.

You're right. Gameplay should come first. But, you can't make a game around it and then force it into the existing timeline (which is what IGA did). So, it is:

1) Develop gameplay
2) Look at existing timeline
3) Build the game around the existing story.

With this method, you can build a game for an existing franchise without shoe-horning it into the timeline and you can minimize plot holes.

[Ahasverus]

Never forget.

No, he wasn't , he had his chance and mocked us in the face for 11 years riding into ToruGod's tails. The fact that he was promoted inside Konami is a case of unjust reward. YOu might be missing him now but at the time we were upset and certianly tired.

[NagoriyukiSlayer]

I'm with Flame and darkwzrd4 on this topic. IGA had plenty of chances to tell the DCW tale, but nothing ever came of it. Just a bunch of hype over several games that lead to the creation of an out-of-control Juggernaut. The 1999 tale at this point is so engrained into the minds of CV fans that they have their own personal interpretations about it. Everything from story and character involvement, to gameplay and graphics. Right now it would be a big risk to try and bring about such a game with so many expectations. Instead of creating this game after the success of Area of Sorrow, he decided to wait and do a bunch of side stories that were completely unnecessary & contradictory. IGA waited too long. No, he wasn't robbed by Konami. He did this to himself.

Seconded.

Not that I hate the 2D games, but IGA's making sequels to games that really didn't need them was unnecessary. Every game post-AOS felt like filler for parts of the timeline that did not have any activity. I know he once said that he builds his games around ideas, which leads me to wonder how the DCW game would have played in terms of gameplay. A 3D game would not go over very well, if the past tells us anything. A 2D game could work, but I'm not sure how they would convey the scale of the war against Dracula other than in a cutscene or if the game was a strategy RPG.

However, all of the above is simply conjecture, at best. I personally think he waited too long, as the old canon was being dragged out long enough, IMO. If things kept going on like they were, we'd eventually be saying something like "Skeletons in space!?" for games that take in 21XX A.D. and beyond. That would be assuming if they kept making games in the old canon. I like the way LOS is being handled: three games, and that's it. Mercury Steam is setting out to do what they want, and let's hope that their take does not get saturated with more games than what is necessary.

1) Develop gameplay
2) Look at existing timeline
3) Build the game around the existing story.

Agreed.

[mindbender]

I'm not the biggest fan of IGA's efforts, but it's always easy to say that his games sucked and he had all these chances when we have no idea what kind of budgets he was given and what upper management decreed to him. Even Kojima struggles with Konami's management, but he happens to have a franchise that will always sell more to help get his way.

[KaZudra]

IGA had years to show his fans the best of IGA, sadly it's mostly regarded to SoTN, he first project.
For years it's been hit or miss, but only the true fans can try to enjoy them all, which is a mouthful because everyone should be able to enjoy any title from random...
Mercury Steam has come, despite the Overload of Criticism of how "Lords of shadow isn't Castlevania", It still succeeded IGA's legacy with the first title.
As opposed to just filling in the blanks with weak stories, MS gave us 3 Complex stories spanning in a perfectly placed timeline.

Not saying IGA was bad, but if he were given a second chance, I'd suggest him to make his "Castlevania" more than "blah blah, kill Dracula, remember 1999", and I highly suggest taking the Kojima route for 3D games, Kojima knew his team couldn't do MGR as envisioned, so he gave it to a team that could, p+.

I would love to see a castlevania game with greater complexity in level design.

[EstebanT]

I don't miss Iga... But Michiru Yamane and Ayami kojima need to come back...