Topic: When was Dracula at his full power?

[theplottwist]

Some time ago I was reading a discussion about this, and someone said "Dracula was defeated at his full power by Trevor Belmont." This happened again in the CV Facebook page recently, and I thought "Wait... Where is it ever said that?" and decided to track down the source. I found nothing.

I assumed that this was the case because Dracula hadn't died before Trevor kicked his ass, therefore there was no need for him to "recover" his power. It was never lost, in first place.

HOWEVER it also ocurred to me that Dracula was not the Dark Lord before CVIII. It was Lisa's death that made him into the incarnation of evil. Before this he was simply a dude defying god by living forever and trying to get his shit together with his wife and son. So this would mean that "full power" here means "full power as the Dark Lord", perhaps?

So I went on to look for an evidence, and found this dialogue from Castlevania Judgment:

Dracula: Ah, my long-lost boy. Well met, my son.
Alucard: This will mark the first time I face you at your full strength.
Dracula: Yes, you were with that wretched Belmont, and I had not reached my
full power.
Alucard: In truth, I may have been frightened... scared to confront my own
father.
Dracula: You're as soft as ever, boy. You truly hope to challenge me?
Alucard: This time, I will not hesitate. This time, the son will surpass the
father!
Dracula: Very well, child. Come.

Yes, it comes from Castlevania Jugment, the canon-paradox wonder. However, the game is constructed upon information supposed to be true to the source. Even Cornell's story is "canon" to his world.

So... This lead me to question if anyone has ever fought Dracula at his full power ever. What do you guys think? Can we find when he was at his full power or not?

Also, about this CVIII info, can someone provide me with any details contradicting Judgment? It'd really come in handy.

[AxeLord]

Hmm. Legacy of Darkness, perhaps? I mean, Dracula Ultimate was the final boss, wasn't he? Just a guess.

[theplottwist]

Hmm. Legacy of Darkness, perhaps? I mean, Dracula Ultimate was the final boss, wasn't he? Just a guess.

Well, Legacy of Darkness is not canon to IGA's timeline (where Trevor and team exists) so I don't really know how we can seek evidence for this, as there is no mention of him being "underpowered" sometime in the past or in another ressurrection.

BUT since I didn't mention what canon I was talking about, anything goes. Since the sacrifice was a success, and he had YEARS to develop safe from vampire hunters, I believe he was fully powered in LoD indeed.

[The Puritan]

The original Castlevania, I guess. Makes sense for the most famous Belmont to have brought down Drac in his prime. The Adventure too, maybe.

[BLOOD MONKEY]

I'd say either SOTN or Castlevania 3.

[X]

I would guess the canon games that had Dracula prematurely resurrected feature a sub-par Count; Where he doesn't have all of his dark power. This would mean the other canon titles feature a fully powered Dracula. HoD I would exclude since Dracula never made an appearance, but was instead Maxim's evil twin utilizing the remains for 'its' own purposes. In terms of The Adventure and Belmont's Revenge, Dracula would have been at full power however he was defeated the first time round; not killed. The original Castlevania would also have a fully-powered Dracula. Strong enough to enact a horrible curse on one as strong in both body and spirit as Simon. And definitely in Castlevania III where it took the combined powers and efforts of all those who were involved. SotN features another premature resurrection for Dracula and thus I believe he was not at his full strength. But definitely in Rondo do we see a fully-powered Dracula as he threw everything he had at Richter (3 powerful forms from the DXC version), and ultimately failed.

[Nagumo]

Seems like that quote would bring some salt to a Castlevania forum, especially since we have a couple of members here with a Belmont bias. 

If that's what said in the game I see no reason to doubt it myself since Judgment is a reliable source even though some people might not like that. I'm not sure why Dracula wouldn't be at full power myself, but it's probably a better idea to just ask IGA why he made that decision instead of just straight up denying it. Presumably, Dracula is at full power every 100 years. It might have something to do with the "power of Christ" being weak at that time.

edit: To expand on that "ask IGA" bit in my comment, why not do exactly that? Since Bloodstained IGA has been a lot more open to answering fan questions. So maybe plottwist or somebody else could try contacting Ben Judd and maybe ask if he could get IGA to asnwer a couple of lore questions. Obviously, we couldn't ask anything about 1999 and so on, but I'm sure he would be able to answer "when was Dracula at full power"-type questions.     

[Jop]

The only thing i can think its that he say he wasnt in his full power because he lose that fight so he lie, It is an excuse.

[beingthehero]

I would guess the canon games that had Dracula prematurely resurrected feature a sub-par Count; Where he doesn't have all of his dark power.

Indeedly! PoR confirms this:

Eric: This power! Has Dracula been revived?!

Jonathan: Afraid so.

Charlotte: Brauner was sealing Dracula away, so when we destroyed
           him...

Eric: Strange Even Brauner's seals would be easily Broken by
      Dracula's power, and yet--

Charlotte: !! Perhaps Dracula still hasn't revived completely!

Eric: Perhaps.

Jonathan: Either way, our only choice is to defeat him. And I'd
          prefer the easiest way to do that.

Charlotte: Alright, let's go.

Eric: This is your final battle. Don't do anything foolish
      and get killed, you hear?

Jonathan: ... Let's go!

[DarkLavos]

I'd say 1999, I'm pretty sure it's stated somewhere that he was at his strongest there.

[beingthehero]

I'd say 1999, I'm pretty sure it's stated somewhere that he was at his strongest there.

Yep, this was also confirmed in PoR, right after beating Dracula:

Jonathan: Too bad pal. As long as were here, you won't be revived.

Charlotte: Still, that was an impressive display of impromptu
           teamwork.

Dracula: Say what you will. But I can see it... One day, my power
         will be fully revived!

Jonathan: Fully or not, you're never, ever going to win.

Dracula: I look forward to seeing who will have the last laugh

EDIT: It's kinda weird to see PoR really set up 1999, and then follow it up with OoE, which in turn tried to bridge the gap between SotN and Bloodlines, even though we already knew Richter gave the Vampire Killer to the Morris family and run off with his wife, leaving just a disparate group of extended family members in Romania. I certainly don't regret OoE whatsoever, but it's still slightly odd in retrospect. But back in 2007, I thought the next 2D game was certainly going to be a Lament sequel only because of Leon's 2D sprite in the Greatest Five.

Oh to be young and dumb(er) again...

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Let's break this down by game, then.

Lament:
Not Dracula yet at all.  This is where the connection with Chaos starts, though....

Legends:
Not "The Dark Lord" yet.  Only kinda starting.  Just a Vamp pissed off at the world for killing his SECOND loving wife (poor guy can't catch a break).

CVIII:
Risen as "The Dark Lord" due to Necromancy and other dark arts.  Truly at Full Power.  However, was fought by a team of Four, not just one (though gameplay-wise you only fight him with two). <----here's one instance, methinks.

Curse of Darkness:
Not at all Full Power.  Recently resurrected when Isaac does his thing and Trevor does his thing with the blood and the stuff.

Adventure:
Possibly at Full Power.  Fakes his own death.

Belmonts' Revenge:
Possibly at Full Power.  More power than in Adventure, unless defeat at the hands of Christopher left him weak and regenerating.

Order of Shadows:
Not at all at full Power.

Castlevania:
At full Power.  Enough power to put a curse on Simon upon dying.  <----here's one instance

Simon's Quest:
No power at all.  Barely a regenerating Skeleton.  Simon whips his ass.

Harmony of Dissonance:
Not even with a body yet.  You fight a ghost, and then an amalgamation of parts before they have a chance to unify and do anything.

Rondo of Blood:
Possible candidate for "Full Power", given the blood ritual... but the kidnapping of maidens suggests that he's still recovering.  I think this one might be a candidate for it, though <----here's another possible time.

Symphony of the Night:
Recently defeated.  Only a few years after Rondo.  You fight Dracula in an ethereal Castle that's not of this world, not unlike in Harmony.

Circle of the Moon:
He states he's not at full power and requires a ritual of the moon and Morris Baldwin's sacrifice.

Order of Ecclesia:
Not at full Power (unless you count the Bad Ending as such).  Barlowe is a poor sacrifice for this ritual.

Legacy of Darkness:
Not at full Power.  However, the ending suggests that, in time, and using the power that Cornell relinquished in order to save Ada, will help him become stronger in time.

Castlevania64:
Possibly at Full Power, given the events of LoD, the 8-year gap, and the countless children Actrise has sacrificed to Dracula.  It's possible that Gilles DeRais's perversions have also helped the Count be at full power.
Only problem is, he's been revived in the body of a child.  But gameplay-wise, he has enough power to make you fight an impostor, then make you fight his human form, and then make you fight his Dragon form... and what a form THAT is.
It's possible that Reinhardt and Carrie fought Drac together... but since the game is not Canon, it is unclear how they went about it, as there are no references to these heroes at all later.

Dracula (the Book):
Dracula is purchasing property and is able to travel and he's able to use all of his powers.  It takes quite a lot of work for Van Helsing and company to take him down.  This nullifies Bloodlines and PoR from being candidates for "Full Power Drac", in my opinion... since Drac dies in the book.

Bloodlines:  Because of Dracula (the book), and because of Drolta's schemes, and Elizabeth Bartley/Bathory's plot to use the blood of maidens, etc. to resurrect the Count, we know that he's not at Full Power in this battle.

PoR: Same reasons as per Dracula (the book) and due to the events of Bloodlines.  On top of this, you fight Drac and he requires Death's assistance.  He's also sealed within the magic of Brauner's paintings for some time.  Obviously weak...
...but the deaths of many during World War II may be why he's so young-looking.  Interesting.. hm...

1999: At the strongest, but this is only referenced later.  We do not know the extent of Drac's power, but we know it took an army, the Church, and other secret organizations, combined with magical rituals from both religious and secular groups, to defeat Dracula and move his realm to a place where he couldn't attack anymore and his connection to Chaos is severed.  Dracula has been linked to Chaos (a demonic entity... possibly the biggest demonic entity... perhaps even bigger than Lucifer... just the embodiment of Entropy and Disarray... we're talking Eldrich Abomination, here) since Lament and the Crimson Stone.

AoS: lose to Chaos and 'technically' you're Drac on his prime.  Not the canon ending, though.

DoS: lose your mind and 'technically' you're Drac reborn, resurrected, and on your strongest prime.  It will take a team of three (Grant's representative got snubbed) to take care of Somacula.  <----here's another candidate for "Full Power" but not a canon instance.

[Gaawa-chan]

Most likely either Castlevania 3 (he had not yet been defeated unless you count Legends as canon... which you shouldn't) or 1999, because... well, duh.

[theplottwist]

Lament:
Not Dracula yet at all.  This is where the connection with Chaos starts, though....

CVIII:
Risen as "The Dark Lord" due to Necromancy and other dark arts.  Truly at Full Power.  However, was fought by a team of Four, not just one (though gameplay-wise you only fight him with two). <----here's one instance, methinks.

Here is another thing I have qualms about: When did Dracula become connected to Chaos?

I thought that the Crimson Stone only made him into a vampire (this is literally the only description given to it), but no such connection had been established yet.

Then, in CVIII he goes batshit insane and actually connects with Chaos (explaining how he's suddenly gaining power to wage his war, feeding from the chaos he's causing himself).

Oh well.

Right now I agree that Simon, Richter and Julius fought a fully powered Dracula (even though I can also find nothing on the matter relating to Julius, but the scale of the event makes it look like it). But Dracula's line on Judgment is really the only answer there is about his power in CVIII, and here I'll agree with Nagumo. Judgment does contain reliable information pertaining the canon (it's where the whole blood-ties connection of the Lecardes with the Belmonts came from).

As for Trevor needing three more allies to do it, I thought up the following possibilities:

-Trevor is the weakest Belmont to fight Dracula if we consider that each Belmont is stronger than the last. This would explain how he wasn't able to do it alone and how the others after him were.
-Maybe he WAS able to do it alone, but the allies decided to help anyway to ensure victory, as they also had their beef with the Count.
-Maybe Dracula was not fully powered BUT was strong as hell anyway, and rising to fully powered status, requiring four people to put him down. Almost fully powered, perhaps?

Dunno, it seems weird that IGA would put this line concerning a big plot-point in a game he made for no reason at all. Seems AWFULLY unconsiderate for someone whose CVIII is the favorite game. But then again, Maria is obsessed with boobs and Grant looks like a ninja-mummy.

[zangetsu468]

So if Full Power is basically:

CVIII
CVA/BR/AR
CV/ Super CVIV
Rondo/ XX
CV64 (not canon to IGA timeline)
1999

If full power is approximately every 100 years, this could make sense.
However the 64 games aren't counted, so wouldn't there need to be another instance of Full Power...
Is this possibly why they made OOE? Shanoa talks about the real keep of the Castle being in Hell itself. So if Dracula has completely resurrected and claimed his throne (which I believe he has in OOE; as per his sitting on the throne in the intro) then I don't see why he's not at full power. With no Morris or Belmonts around to fight, it had to be Shanoa using Dracula's own power, again i understand the Belmonts can defeat Dracula, but Shanoa had to use his own power against him which was embued with the strength of the Belmonts. If he wasn't at full power she wouldn't have needed that, Hector defeated a prematurely resurrected Dracula only with his Devil Forgemaster abilities.

Additionally, the entire point of the Order was Dracula's resurrection, why would Barlowe sacrifice himself if he knew this couldn't be achieved.

DoS: lose your mind and 'technically' you're Drac reborn, resurrected, and on your strongest prime.  It will take a team of three (Grant's representative got snubbed) to take care of Somacula.

Wasn't Hammer originally playable and able to climb walls/ throw knives originally in AoS? This would make him Grant's representative. However, they left the playable side out and he just became the merchant instead.