Topic: Ideal Castlevania movie

[zangetsu468]

There's no need to be sorry Seraph, I can't speak for anyone else but I wasn't attempting to pretend I know everything about alchemy or the alchemical process, I was simply floating Alex some ideas for an existing fanfic.

>reads last few posts
>see alchemy being assigned absolute morality
>see alchemy being confused with black magic
>see alchemy being turned into something that's not alchemy at all
>see alchemy being applied as an umbrella term because it sounds cool or whatever

Firstly I know there is a difference between Alchemy and dark magic, I've actually studied it in a University setting. The way I perceive Alchemy (not the dictionary definition) is the connection between all things, a holistic way of looking at one's place in the Universe/ beyond. Dark magic is clearly not that. Which I was stating Mathias could initially be using one but end up falling deeper and deeper into darkness by his own volition to try to win God's battles. I never associated Alchemy itself with being dark or light etc. There's also no reason both can not exist within the same universe, and no reason Mathias can not fall into the latter.

The only reason Alchemy is required in the plot if at all would be the creation of the Crimson Stone. For all we know the stone was already around and Mathias acquired it by some other means.

The whole point to include any of this was:
- Mathias falling from grace (the What)
- Mathias acquiring the Crimson Stone (the How)
- The Dracula novel which is a part of CV's canon mentions he dabbled in Dark Arts/ Magic

Hence including both would tie both the Dracula novel's story and LOI's story together.

In the sense of a narrative which is a fanfic no less, it doesn't make sense that Mathias was happy-go-lucky until he arrived home to see his SO die, then be all "Aww rats, f*** God now..". There needs to be a build to something.

Like I know CV's already got a slightly off-center concept of alchemy and how it works thematically and symbolically 

Exactly, so the point above in red is redundant and you've just contradicted yourself.

but this is ridiculous.

..Need a hug?

If you want a better look at a theory to incorporate the Magnum Opus into Castlevania, look no further than Mathias' collarbone--the Crimson Stone IS the Philosopher's Stone, born from the Prima Materia that is Chaos and providing eternal life through vampirism.

Bullshit. The Philosopher's Stone and the Crimson Stone are two different things. In context of CV we learn there are 4 stones of Alchemy; Ebony, Crimson, Philosopher's and one unnamed.

St Germain is also a figure who in the Alchemical sense was known to have mastered Alchemy and gained eternal life. Within CV's context he would have had to create the Philosopher's Stone to attain eternal life, more than likely in some capacity by which Rinaldo informs Leon about in LOI.

"You want more power, shed your humanity?" That's not really how equivalent exchange would work

From what Dungeonites have described regarding the LOI manga prequel, this is exactly the exchange between Walter and Death. I'm not saying that the exchange would be the same with Mathias (nobody knows exactly how he acquires the Crimson Stone, whether he made it etc) I'm not even laying out the blueprint for how or what capacity the process would work because it's not my fanfic. I'm floating ideas to Alex for his.

This isn't really alchemy. It's black magic and occultism being worded as alchemy purely for the sake of semantics.

As stated nobody is saying the two can not exist in the same universe. There's also nothing to say an Alchemist can not cross the line into unorthodox processes by which whatever is being done could be construed as something more sinister.

[TatteredSeraph]

*Shrugs*  No need to apologise.  I've looked a little into this stuff purely out of interest of some of the origins of science.  I find it fascinating in that to some eyes, Newton was perceived as an 'occultist', just as Galileo was a heretic for his views on astronomy.  The history of astronomy and physics is glorious.

  To me, Mathias was an alchemist, the latest in a long lie of alchemists most likely.  As D9 said, his intentions were good in the beginning, he was devout in his Faith, and the alchemy itself as 'neutral' in nature, having both lighter and darker parts to it.  However, most likely in my eyes, it was Elisabetha's death which pushed him over the edge and succumbing to the darkness in his heart, turning to the darker side of magic completely, which I guess he'd be aware of and maybe dabbled in to some extent, separate to his alchemy?  The alchemical process requiring a sacrifice - i.e. - Elisabetha's death - is the bit I'm less sure on, and not liking here, along with the suggestion that the alchemy = black magic.  Just my two cents on the matter.

[Dracula9]

Bullshit. The Philosopher's Stone and the Crimson Stone are two different things. In context of CV we learn there are 4 stones of Alchemy; Ebony, Crimson, Philosopher's and one unnamed.

St Germain is also a figure who in the Alchemical sense was known to have mastered Alchemy and gained eternal life. Within CV's context he would have had to create the Philosopher's Stone to attain eternal life, more than likely in some capacity by which Rinaldo informs Leon about in LOI.

Ah, now who's the one being unwilling to accept alternative possibilities, hm?

I could elaborate my theory in (great) detail, but since you've already acted snide about this and assumed I meant the two can't exist simultaneously (hint, I wasn't, but alchemy really isn't "kill your wife, get power" unless you have some iteration which assumes the value of a human soul, which only has significant value in a morally-biased system, which would not then be alchemy (did this not sink in the first time I said it?)), I'll just give the rundown.

-Philosopher's Stone requires difficult to acquire and/or unknown ingredients to make, the names of which shrouded in mystery

-Philosopher's Stone requires the Prima Materia

-Philosopher's Stone supposedly grants eternal life, and depending on the text discussing it superhuman powers

-Philosopher's Stone in the purest form is deep red

-Crimson Stone required a difficult to acquire and rare ingredient in the form of a powerful vampire's soul

-Crimson Stone likely could use the power of Chaos as its Prima Materia due to the connections and connotations of Dracula's power coming from Chaos later in the series, which is sensible due to what Prima Materia means and that chaos as a force of entropy (both in the universe at large and within the hearts of humans) is something that predates anything else--existence being born from entropy and chaos; many different names for it: chaos, ether, entropy, but whether in a human's heart or in the greater universe it all means the same thing thematically--potential for being.

-Crimson Stone provides eternal life in the form of vampirism. Nobody ever said how the Philosopher's Stone provided immortality.

-Crimson Stone's deep fucking red. I guess rubedo doesn't matter even if the Stone in question is the exact color of a completed and 'pure' Stone, though, does it?

I love how I'm full of shit for acknowledging a rather sensible connection purely because "waah the canon doesn't explicitly say so," despite the shitload of rational connections that do so. The CV Universe doesn't state that Crimson and Ebony are absolute stages of the process of the Magnum Opus, it simply states that they are results of the process.

Rinaldo considers the Crimson one to be "incorrect" or as he puts it, an accidental. But let's look again and what the Philosopher's Stone is said to bestow on its maker and what the Crimson Stone bestows on Mathias.

Huh, look at that. The bestowed effects line up pretty closely! Imagine that. Immortality and fabulous powers.

Ah, but I suppose that since Rinaldo said it, it simply must be true! There's no way that, in-universe, his judgment may be affected by his morality and beliefs, and that a Stone that provides the exact abilities told in legend through means considered at the time to be evil or unholy (vampirism) would, due to those beliefs and morals, be deemed "false" because the delievered effects are not preferable.

What I'm saying is, Rinaldo condemning the Crimson Stone as incomplete or inaccurate could very well be a case of "this this X isn't the way I always thought X would be! It must be a false version or incomplete iteration!" because of the very plausible potential for the assignment of morality to a process that doesn't give a shit about morals.

Alchemy is like a self-regulating machine--Mathias surrenders his humanity through vampirism, and as we see later on the only thing that ultimately keeps Dracula's power stamped down is the stereotypical elements of love and friendship and all that. The eclipse sealing killed his main body off for good and cut off his power source, but even that wasn't permanent as his power revived in Soma. And when Soma stood upon the brink of turning into the new Dark Lord, what prevented that from happening? Mina's charm and everything it represented. The things that suppressed Dracula's power at the moment they could have returned in full force were the very things Dracula gave up in his bid for power.

Now one could look at this as a divine irony, but really it feels more of a self-regulated flaw. There's really no such thing as perfection, and even the most powerful of things have a weakness somewhere. Alchemy, being self-regulating, would in this sense assign the things given to it as the hole in the armor to the end product, simply because it has those things on-hand and doesn't have to create something new as the flaw.

Think of alchemy like a factory machine that produces pastries. It produces the same kind of pastry day in and day out and everybody knows and loves what this particular brand of pastry has to offer--they know its name, they love how it tastes, and they can't wait for the moment they can get another one. Now suppose I throw a handful of meatballs into the production machine and the machine keeps on making pastries as if nothing happened. Now we have a batch of pastries with meatballs in them. Well, so many people grew to know and love what the original recipe had, and for a great deal of them this new divergent batch is off-putting. Many of them refuse to even consider what the new ones taste like purely because it's not what they've come to know from that brand. However, there would obviously be some out there for whom this new batch would taste quite good and be enjoyed, despite the protests of the rest who firmly believe that the original flavor is the only "good" flavor.

Does my metaphor make sense? The original batch of pastries is the "normal" Philosopher's Stone and the meatball batch is the Crimson Stone. The die-hard lovers of the old batch who refuse to acknowledge the meatball one as having value are Rinaldo and the ones who enjoy the meatball ones are Mathias.

The machine doesn't recognize what the people who use its product consider "good" or "bad," and provided you don't make changes which would structurally break or damage the machine it'll keep on doing what it knows how to do regardless of what new ingredients you throw into it. Meatballs, strawberries, a jug of Pepsi, the machine will continue producing pastries and will simply just be offshoots with different flavors and textures. And even if you did break the machine with an ingredient unable to be processed normally, the machine wouldn't produce anything undesirable or twisted--it would shut itself down and just not produce anything more until the obstruction is removed.

The machine is alchemy. It doesn't care one way or the other and only does what it knows how to do. Morality is assigned to the process and results by the people who use it. It does not gain or lose moral fiber because its users declare it as such. It still remains neutral.

I can call the sky blue and someone else can call it orange, but does the sky actually care or alter itself based on what either of us say? Of course not, it existed before either of us were around and the terms we use are only terms that we ourselves assign value and meaning to--sky doesn't give a shit what we think its color is, it's gonna go right on existing as it always has either way.

St Germain is also a figure who in the Alchemical sense was known to have mastered Alchemy and gained eternal life. Within CV's context he would have had to create the Philosopher's Stone to attain eternal life, more than likely in some capacity by which Rinaldo informs Leon about in LOI.

Um, no? CV's St. Germain's a time traveller, and there are no hints whatsoever that he is either an alchemist or immortal. Now the Comte de Saint Germain has those connotations, but it's not entirely sensible to assign the real-world stories to a fictional character bearing his name. Based on what we have documented about the Comte de Saint Germain, and what is told of CV's St. Germain, there's nothing linking the two other than name and the legends of popping up here and there throughout history.

Popping up here and there throughout history is something a time traveller would be entirely capable of doing. It doesn't automatically make the guy immortal or and alchemist.

I understand entirely that you were merely offering suggestions and avenues for the writer, but there is a connection being made within those suggestions that should not be being made.

Alchemy is not a dark magic, nor is dark magic the same as alchemy. One might use ideas or methods from the other, but the intent and structure of each are vastly different. Dark magic within the game universe has connotations of "evil" or demonic involvement, whereas alchemy, again, doesn't give a shit about morality either way. Something like sacrificing a loved one by accident in a bid for power using dark magics isn't really something alchemy would do, since alchemy would require you to deliberately add that loved one as an ingredient, and wouldn't produce unexpected/undesirable results out of nowhere. It wouldn't just up and kill your loved one as an ironic bargain while you were off using the power gained by your dabbling--alchemy would require you to consciously put that person into the recipe for something to happen to them.

Dabbling in powers beyond imagining that grant great and terrible power that take something very near and dear to you in exchange? Sounds more like something a malevolent entity would do, like a demon pact. And despite the retconning, we have seen such a pact in CV before with Renon.

Mathias losing Elisabetha tragically in his bid for power wouldn't really be alchemy unless he himself threw her on the table and offered her up to the process. What you described is more "deal with the devil" territory.

You say you weren't making such a connection, but the entire bit deliberating how Mathias used stages of alchemy to fight for God and that the ultimate stage was to shed humanity to become like God and that doing so required the loss of something dear to your human heart--i.e. a loved one. This, again, assumes a moral bias on the part of alchemy. Mathias thinking it relates to God is his own preference, and doesn't affect the alchemy, this much is true. However, the caveat you describe as having to shed humanity by means of something like a loved one falls under the jurisdiction of the human soul having inherent value so as to equal that sort of exchange, and that kind of value placed on a human soul is one that only really happens in religion, which would assume that the alchemic exchange therein has a moral overhang, which isn't how it works.

I wasn't inherently calling YOU specifically out in my previous post, but rather that the inaccurate connections were being made in general. It just happened that a lot of what I said lined up as conflicting with what you'd said.

As D9 said, his intentions were good in the beginning, he was devout in his Faith, and the alchemy itself as 'neutral' in nature, having both lighter and darker parts to it. However, most likely in my eyes, it was Elisabetha's death which pushed him over the edge and succumbing to the darkness in his heart, turning to the darker side of magic completely, which I guess he'd be aware of and maybe dabbled in to some extent, separate to his alchemy?

No no no, what I meant by that was not that alchemy has "light" and "dark" in harmony, but that alchemy inherently just is and only has what moral associations we give to it. It's neutral on its own, literally and entirely neutral. The pastry machine I used as metaphor earlier--we wouldn't say that it has "light" and "dark" parts to it, because it's just a machine that only does what you put into it and tell it to do, right? Same concept.

As for the rest--that's about how I see things. Mathias lost Elisabetha through means unrelated to alchemy or magic, got pissed off at God, and decided to dabble in the things he considered to be reprehensible to said God--i.e. vampirism, eternal life, black magics, etc. All was good and well until his wife died (or was "taken" by God as he feels), at which point he decided to basically do as much as he could to piss God off forever as retaliation.

--------------

Lastly, really?

You actually played the "oh well the game universe gets it slightly wrong so you acknowledging that going forward means you contradicted yourself hurr hurr" card?

C'mon dude, that's a shit argument and you know it. It'd work if I was applying ONLY real-world knowledge and lingo to the game world, but I haven't been--I've been using said real-world knowledge and lingo to fill in the gaps within the game story in a way that makes sense within the game story by means of deviations to what is considered the "standard" to what basically amounts to a magic rock nobody's ever actually seen in person to know the true effects of.

Oh, and having studied it in college doesn't mean anything either. I didn't study it in a college setting and look at the level of understanding of it I have. I realize that you brought it up in response to me stating my appreciation for there being some understanding of the knowledge being present, but I don't really care that you read into it at university. People can flaunt degrees and proof of having studied until they're blue in the face (and maybe I'm being a bit too harsh on this bit, but I've had to continually deal with a special breed of asshole who believes his degree makes his work infallible and flawless for longer than I care to admit, so I concede that I may very well have a bias on this one, so take it with some salt), but I care far less about the fact that one studied something and far more about their ability to utilize that knowledge. Don't tell me you've studied it, show me.

[TatteredSeraph]

I gathered as much.  What I meant by it having lighter and parter parts is that due to its neutral nature, it can be used for good or ill purposes, depending on the alchemist.  It was be 'dark' in a way, as it can be used for such purposes, just as it can likewise used for good.  *Shrugs*  Sorry, my words are getting a bit muddled in how they're falling out of my brain atm.  I should probably take it as a sign for going and gettign some sleep at some point.   In an case, I'm agreeing with you on that front abotu alchemy being neutral, but is shaped by the intent.

[zangetsu468]

D9 I'm not  unwilling to accept alternatives, nor acting snide, I asked if you wanted a hug, because you  seemed genuinely offended at a 2 minute post that was written to offer Alex ideas on his fanfic. I've never claimed to know more on the subject of Alchemy than yourself or others and my comments were made and expanded upon in my last post.

I'll keep it short, Rinaldo is not God but in context of LOI he is the sage persona who offers knowledge to the protagonist and seems to understand Alchemy, specifically the 4 stones. This counts for a lot in LOI because we're barely given anything as to the discourse of Alchemy or how Mathias acquires the Crimson Stone. He was also right about the Whip of Alchemy requiring a tainted soul to be complete which was oddly specific and right on the money. (This isn't CVII where some villagers are offering the player bum deals on information )

On that note, all of you don't get me wrong, I'm not attempting to rewrite the sequence of events as to how Elisabetha dies and when Mathias goes down a certain road to acquire the CS, the narrative in previous posts was not my attempt to explain away the canon, it was directed to Alex only. (I'm surprised it was read at all.) I do not believe this to be the canon itself.

As for Saint Germain I'm not speaking about the Count (although CV's SG does seem as sophisticated as a Count) I'm speaking of the Alchemical figure who is often called Master Alchemist. Some consider him the same figure as the Count of SG, others believe the two are different figures entirely. There is evidence in his official artwork that hints at possessing the philosopher's stone imo, but I've already posted about this long ago and I don't feel I should post it without localising it to another thread.

I would like to say thank you for offering all the information you have. It seems like researching Alchemy has been an interest of yours and I'm glad that Alex can perhaps incorporate some of that into his fanfic if he decides to go down that route. 

[Dracula9]

Ah, alright. Without the Master Alchemist specification, I went with the most obvious iteration of SG in the Comte.

And my apologies--things like "need a hug?" and calling bullshit were interpreted the wrong way.

Lastly, I understand that Rinaldo is used as a sage-wisdom kind of character to Leon, who knows next to nothing about the subject, but that doesn't make his perspective infallible. Leon knows nothing about alchemy--Rinaldo could have just as easily told him alchemy required you to strip naked and run around the woods for seven years to become one with the earth or something and Leon wouldn't have known any better. Rinaldo is wise to his end, but even the wisest of people have the capacity to be wrong and have their judgment clouded by personal bias.

And yes, alchemy, esotericism, occultism, all of these things fascinate me intently. To see how older generations viewed and sought to understand the universe around them and their place in it--this is immensely captivating for me, and many of the philosophies therein ring true even today; particularly, the paradoxial logic of alchemy being absolute in its relativism. Shit's a head-spinner, but it's an amazing head-spinner.

[zangetsu468]

Ah, alright. Without the Master Alchemist specification, I went with the most obvious iteration of SG in the Comte.

It's my opinion that the CV version of SG is probably a synthesis of both figures. I do also believe him to be the ancient sage Eneomaos who left all of the Devil Forgemaster (which seems to be an Alchemical process) information for Hector and ultimately assists him to "alter his destiny" i.e. not becoming the vessel for Dracula, but that's another theory. It's simply how I interpreted the character at the time and mind you I haven't played COD in nearly a decade.

And my apologies--things like "need a hug?" and calling bullshit were interpreted the wrong way.

All good, no apologies necessary.

Lastly, I understand that Rinaldo is used as a sage-wisdom kind of character to Leon, who knows next to nothing about the subject, but that doesn't make his perspective infallible. Leon knows nothing about alchemy--Rinaldo could have just as easily told him alchemy required you to strip naked and run around the woods for seven years to become one with the earth or something and Leon wouldn't have known any better.

^Ideal Castlevania Movie^ right there...

I no longer feel bad about potentially derailing the thread

Rinaldo is wise to his end, but even the wisest of people have the capacity to be wrong and have their judgment clouded by personal bias.

This is true, but the little bits/ cutscenes that we're given are about all we have to go off in the game. I'm just trying to use the least amount of assumptions to understand the actual canon. This is why I always believed LOI should have also been a movie (animated preferably) where it could've gone into more detail about everything. 

And yes, alchemy, esotericism, occultism, all of these things fascinate me intently. To see how older generations viewed and sought to understand the universe around them and their place in it--this is immensely captivating for me, and many of the philosophies therein ring true even today; particularly, the paradoxial logic of alchemy being absolute in its relativism. Shit's a head-spinner, but it's an amazing head-spinner.

It's been a good 6 years since I was studying anything to do with Alchemy. We never went into great detail on any specifics but it was more of Alchemy Philosophy 101, connecting the seemingly unconnected.. It's a lot to go into but it definitely struck a chord that resonated with me. One of my favourite electives for sure.

[TatteredSeraph]

It's bouncing around my head again that I think that a Lords of Shadow based movie could be rather fun.  There's a wide enough cast of main characters and setting info to know some key stuff going on in the setting, while there's enough not there to be able to have some creative fun.  Perhaps, even Mirror of Fate could work, in film form?

[Dracula9]

Wasn't Dracula Untold basically LoS1, though? 

[TatteredSeraph]

Wasn't Dracula Untold basically LoS1, though? 

It came across to me as a weird cross inspired by a mix of LoS and the main timeline.  The Master Vampire sort of fulfills the role of a cross between Zobek and Carmilla (in terms of her function of turning Vlad, and telling him that he will end up turning completely).  I even had this crazy idea for a crossover fic in my head where I picutured Ingeras growing up and ending up becoming Alucard.   That said, an all-out Castlevania LoS film could be quite fun. 

[zangetsu468]

It came across to me as a weird cross inspired by a mix of LoS and the main timeline.  The Master Vampire sort of fulfills the role of a cross between Zobek and Carmilla (in terms of her function of turning Vlad, and telling him that he will end up turning completely).  I even had this crazy idea for a crossover fic in my head where I picutured Ingeras growing up and ending up becoming Alucard.   That said, an all-out Castlevania LoS film could be quite fun.

Hit the nail on the head... LOS Gabula meets Zomilla..
Classic boy meets stranger, stranger offers boy eternal life at a price-cliché narrative.
The rest writes itself 

[KaZudra]

Castlevania movie....

First off the plot should steer away from an origin story, leave it as a short prologue and not drag it out, too much of that in recent years.
The story should center around the Belmont, being both feared and necessary should result in better interactions with characters.
Characters. Castlevania isn't about having many characters, nor much interaction, if executed right, Belmont could interact with plenty of side characters to humanize him.
Dracula needs to be evil and with a motive, the goal is to build him up as a someone you want to see die in the end but still doubtful if Belmont can actually do it.
There also needs to be a subtle campiness to it to keep things in a good pace, without some comedic relief, the story becomes less interesting as the tone never shifts to keep the viewer wanting to come back to it, It's a very essential part of drama.
Belmont needs to be a badass, but still human.
There also needs to be a reason, in the game you don't really need a reason, you're playing a game, but in entertainment without interaction, motives and reasons need to be thoroughly thought through.

Lastly and most importantly, it needs to have an appeal that pleases both those who play castlevania and a good way to introduce castlevania to those never heard of it, Most VG movies neglect this and rely too much on player prior knowledge to make up for the lack of plot.

So, which game fits best? the obvious choice would be Castlevania 3, there's plenty going on and enough characters for constant interaction and lore trading to make a great movie without any drastic creative liberties.
Second choice would be Bloodlines, The buddy-cop formula can work especially with a more familiar historic setting, plus it can grab attention from bram stoker Dracula fans.
Third choice, LoD/CV64, if taken some pages out of the beta concepts, you'll have a rather diverse crew and an already interesting take on dracula

Just Do not do LoS, if it already plays like a movie, don't attempt to make it into a movie.

[AlexCalvo]

Let's not forget two important details here...

We're talking about an “alchemy” that can be used to make monsters, magical weapons, and steal vampire souls.  This is not really the pseudo-science of history, it is a fictitious version of it set in a dark fantasy version of the world where magic and stuff is real.  I don't think it's completely necessary to stay so within the lines of what alchemy was historically.

Second, in the old games' Japanese manuals Dracula is said to have been a dark sorcerer long before he becomes a vampire, not just an alchemist, and notice that I specifically said that I was going for a more Lovecraftian type occultism than just alchemy.  And I don't think that is inconsistent with what we know about Mathias as a character.  I don't know about you, but given his actions and what Rinaldo says about him in LoI, coupled with what the old games said about pre-vampire Dracula, I would imagine he was knowledgeable in many more magical disciplines than just alchemy.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Y'all are gonna kill me for saying this but I think Lords of Shadow was the Castlevania movie we'd have realistically gotten. It has "Hollywood adaptation" written all over it.

And honestly, I'm fine with it.

If I had a choice about what game got adapted, I think I'd actually shoot for Portrait of Ruin. The World War II setting virtually eliminated the need for an origin story, and everything about the Castlevania half of the setting else can be gradually revealed through dialog after a short text intro making mention of the generalities of the series plot. I'd tweak it by making Brauner a Nazi scientist tasked with cracking the secrets of Dracula's power to tie it into the World War II era, but early into the film he learns of the deaths of his daughters which pushes him over the edge. Stella and Loretta need not be the descendants of the Lecarde family (kind of an unnecessary detail for a film version) and they might be simplified as the daughters of a Romani vampire hunter with a connection to the Belmont family instead.

Also that orb... armor... thing... Death is wearing in game needs to go away. Like forever.