Topic: I think Christopher originally came before Trevor/Ralph pre-IGA

[Belmontoya]

I feel like Rondo of Blood is a turning point where the story almost reboots itself basing it off of the previous games.

Dracula is represented differently, the artwork changes. I feel like this game is the start of what Iga carried on.

And why is Dracula X in the title? What is that part of the title representing or referring to? Why didn't they simply call it Castlevania 5? This is perhaps my biggest question about it.

Is Dracula X referring to a reboot of the character of Dracula in the CV universe? His age being 800 which is more than twice as old as he should have been. It's very peculiar.

[Lelygax]

If You take the stories of the CV games as presented in both their manuals and in-game text up to this point there is a reasonable timeline that fits well enough with the 100 year resurrection mythos. And there is basically nothing to support or deny the possibility the AjDen was intended to come after DDen.

For that same reason there is nothing to support or deny that it comes before.

However, I will bring up something that you didn't; Ralph C. Belmont. It is common for a child to have a middle name derived from a parent or grandparent. So Ralph's name could be another indication of intent, but again it is not supported by anything concrete. You would have to make an assumption that Ralph's middle name came from Chris, or that Chris was named after Ralph's middle name. So we are really just back to square 1. We really just don't know enough to say anything for sure.

Exactly and that is the problem.

The fact unfortunately is that prior to Iga's official timeline, there was virtually no effort to establish a canon by the varying chapters of Konami Computer Entertainment. They just made games and said "yeah that looks good". For the most part, this worked on a game by game basis, but had its own issues. Meanwhile, retroactively shoehorning in a canon timeline caused as many breaks as it mended, and discussions here routinely prove that these are some fairly serious problems.

Problems that have already been resolved by IGA when he did the timeline, we're only having this conversation because we wanted to discuss about things that happened originally, before the fix.

Even after that, there's translation hiccups and contradictions, remakes of old tales with unclear scaling of canon, and worst of all, endless amounts of incredibly vague and minimalist storytelling. Honestly it all just snowballed into a horrid mess, and after all this time, stuff like the light novels have never been made available in America, so many American fans are left without crucial pieces of the puzzle.

Sadly storytelling wasn't a big deal at the time for most games Castlevania games before Rondo of Blood and Symphony of the Night. Light novels hardly are translated to us also (being Konami doesn't help also).

About remakes they are more like reimagining the story and doesn't change the most important thing at the time, that is which Belmont killed Dracula at this year. Ironically now people complain that they're willing to pay for a classicvania or remake even if doesn't have a story or if doesn't is canon, know why? Because after all that is the true essence of the series on its origin (Belmont walks to the castle and kills Dracula, END) and I have no problem with it, while also liking the metroidvania style with a story and dialogues.

Iga's attempt was noble but damaging, imo, and it's no wonder why headcanon is so rampant in this fandom, as opposed to something like Halo, where things are tightly controlled and always have been.

I disagree with this, he fixed something broken and made it work. Also comparing Halo to Castlevania is like comparing orange to apples, since Castlevania is much more older and came from a era where developers didn't cared much about story and sometimes people that would make the next game changed, while Halo is from times where people try to make a cinematic game that have a good story and tend to focus on that.

Dracula is represented differently, the artwork changes. I feel like this game is the start of what Iga carried on.

And why is Dracula X in the title? What is that part of the title representing or referring to? Why didn't they simply call it Castlevania 5? This is perhaps my biggest question about it.

Is Dracula X referring to a reboot of the character of Dracula in the CV universe? His age being 800 which is more than twice as old as he should have been. It's very peculiar.

Rondo of Blood is named Dracula X because it was meant to be a "gaiden" title, so they could test new things without being restricted. In the end it was so good that became canon. The art style that you say is this "anime" style? Because some japanese manual already had this since CV1 or 2 IIRC. IMO they never did this game thinking about the market outside Japan.

[X]

I disagree with this, he fixed something broken and made it work.

To an extent. He's not that good. IGA has mentioned that he glossed over some elements of all the games when creating the "official" timeline and story, and due to that choice, just as much damage was done as "fixing" it. If IGA had paid careful attention to ALL the details (like plot is doing with his story), no-matter how small, then all the issues with his timeline wouldn't be nearly as noticeable. The man's not perfect and I don't believe he's a perfectionist as he claims. If he was then--again--we'd have a story with virtually no potholes in it.

[Lelygax]

I agree in parts, since I couldn't imagine IGA being able to fixing every hole even with time. To be honest we are able to do more fixes because we had years to think, while receiving material that they produced after the fix that can help in fixing even more. We are a community that thinks about this almost all the time, being able to receive direct feedback and debate with people that care with everyone being equal, thats why its my thought. *hugs*

It only made it work, its far from perfection, but a lot better than before it was fixed. I won't ignore the problems (but please show me, I'm oblivious about them, dead serious) but they don't seem to be a complete mess.

potholes in it.

Sorry couldn't resist, but seriously we have a lot of these here, in USA its the same?

[zangetsu468]

If he was then--again--we'd have a story with virtually no potholes in it.

'Plot'holes? (not directed at Plottwist btw)

IMO they never did this game thinking about the market outside Japan.

XX is evidence enough of that, right.

[Crying Freeman]

The fact unfortunately is that prior to Iga's official timeline, there was virtually no effort to establish a canon by the varying chapters of Konami Computer Entertainment. They just made games and said "yeah that looks good". For the most part, this worked on a game by game basis, but had its own issues. Meanwhile, retroactively shoehorning in a canon timeline caused as many breaks as it mended, and discussions here routinely prove that these are some fairly serious problems.

Even after that, there's translation hiccups and contradictions, remakes of old tales with unclear scaling of canon, and worst of all, endless amounts of incredibly vague and minimalist storytelling. Honestly it all just snowballed into a horrid mess, and after all this time, stuff like the light novels have never been made available in America, so many American fans are left without crucial pieces of the puzzle.

Iga's attempt was noble but damaging, imo, and it's no wonder why headcanon is so rampant in this fandom, as opposed to something like Halo, where things are tightly controlled and always have been.

That's the impression I always had with the AJDensetsu translation, cus AjDracula says Chris came 100 years prior. Back in the day devs didn't care about storytelling the way they do now. Hell, ROGs like Hydlide didn't even have a flowing narrative; just save the princess. This is especially bad for action games. Over the years story became bigger in games and now it seems like the only thing reviewers and mainstream players care about. Having mishandled plot in a game today would be suicide for a dev, unless it was meant to be humorous and hardening back to games like CV.

Im not familiar with the staff, but the story writer for AKDensetsu could've been the project lead/director, who decided to make the game more unique and cinematic by adding a background plot with a moving film reel this time, then give the extra players background to add to this plot and world. Since his main concerns were the gameplay and graphics, he had little time to make a fleshed out plot and just wrote something up akin to the back of a game's box and just let it fly. "Consumers won't care, everything else is the best we could do", which is true at the time: nobody really cares about story unless they played PC games like text adventures or ROGs. And then Ninja Gaiden came but that's for another time lol

Miscommunication and no need to worry are my reasons for why they're mixed up. I mean, Chris is the legendary warrior he is in the CV1 manual, so maybe he was originally the first Belmont(let me know if there's any info I'm unaware of that proves this wrong) to fight Drac. Then when the devs started making a game about the first Belmont that fought Drac, Christipher, they heard from the DDensetsu team that THEY were also making that game, and at the last minute they changed AjDensetsu's protagonist to a Ralph C. Bemlondo. This would make sense because when AJDensetsu starts, the Belmonts are far from famous, then after beating Drac, their name will be remembered for centuries, and Ralph will hopefully get the respect he deserves; this could lead into how Chris became the legendary warrior he was in the CV1 manual. Plus the way the CV1 and Vampire Killeer manuals were written, it feels more like a "Your ancestor did this, now you must, Mr. Chosen one" type plot rather than Simon carrying a long running torch from multiple ancestors.

[X]

Lelygax@

zangestu468@

Hahaha! Didn't even notice my spelling was off 

...that's been happening a lot lately 

[Nagumo]

Chris is the legendary warrior he is in the CV1 manual, so maybe he was originally the first Belmont(let me know if there's any info I'm unaware of that proves this wrong) to fight Drac.

The CV1 manual says something like "once Dracula was brought back in this world" and then continues to recount the Christopher story. This sounds to me like this Christopher was not meant to be the first Belmont who fought Dracula. Unless a non-Belmont fought Dracula before, I guess? So it's pretty odd that afterwards Dracula Densetsu went on to act like this Christopher is the first guy who did this.   

[Crying Freeman]

The CV1 manual says something like "once Dracula was brought back in this world" and then continues to recount the Christopher story. This sounds to me like this Christopher was not meant to be the first Belmont who fought Dracula. Unless a non-Belmont fought Dracula before, I guess? So it's pretty odd that afterwards Dracula Densetsu went on to act like this Christopher is the first guy who did this.

Oh I see. I remember reading the manual once years ago, ought to go through it again.

Now that I think about it, I do own that CV hint book with the full CV4 art on it, and before each game it tells the story, separate from the manuals I beleive. It covers CV1-4 and the first two GB games, so I'll take a look tonight and see what I can scavenge that might add to this.

[Inccubus]

[1]Thank you for the criticial responses by the way. It's important to be skeptical when considering a theory, since it helps us come closer to the truth.

[2]Fair enough. You would need more context in order to better judge the contents of that sentence. I didn't provide the translation for the sentence that follows. So this is my fault for not providing the full context. Sorry about that. Anyway, that sentence is as follows: "ベルモンド家はその人間離れした強靭な精神・肉体能力のためヴァンパイアと同じように受け止められ、人々から恐れられ疎んじられてきたために、いつしか人々の前から姿を消していたが、手を尽くして捜索し、ようやくベルモンドの血を受け継ぐ若者を見つけ出した。 " (The Belmont family were treated no differently than vampires because of their superhumanly strong spiritual and physical abilities, for which they came to be feared and shunned by the people, and one day disappeared from the people's presence. However, after relentless searching, at last, a young man who inherited the blood of the Belmont family was found.)

I think it's very clear from this passage that the Belmonts had a reputation among the local population. So your interpretation wouldn't quite work.   
 
[3]Yeah, that's right. Christopher was a vampire hunter already, of course. But I think it's also important to consider that in the sentence before, it's mentioned Soleiyu (or Soleil) would took over Christopher's role as vampire hunter. So, to me, this implies that from that point forward, the Belmont becomes famous as a vampire hunter lineage, the reason for why they weren't famous as a vampire hunter lineage before being that Christopher was the progenitor. I think that is further strengthened by the manual of the first Dracula Densetsu acting like its the origin story of the chronology (not sure if you agreed with that or not).     

But let's just go along with your interpreation. I still think even if you would interpret it like that, it supports my argument, because Akumajou Densetsu's plot is dependant on the Belmont family being famous. (see above and my previous posts)     

[4]I'm glad you brought this up, because I looked into that, and given the phrasing in the Japanese text, it's a bit misleading to translate that line as "more than 100 years". The expression that is used, "100余年", is actually like saying "a 100 odd years ago". Of course, that would sound awkward in English, so I understand why it was translated like it has been, but it's important to be aware of the nuance. But why would they say a 100 odd years ago? That would imply at most 109 years, correct? I think they did that in order to account for Simon's Quest, since if you would go back in that time from that game, technically it would be 107 years. But this means Akumajou Densetsu was definitely meant to take place roughly 100 years before Akumajou Dracula. Because of that, and because the intention of the story writer was for Ralph to be Christopher,  I do think combined this is solid evidence for Akumajou Densetsu originally being the same event as the "Christopher vs revived Dracula" conflict .   

[5]Yeah, all my individual points are only convincing when taken all together, so it's a bit hard discuss these points on a case by case basis. Just out of curiosity, what do you think are the assumptions I'm making? Knowing that might be helpful with figuring out what kind of evicende to look for. 

[6]Actually, don't forgot Rondo of Blood. That one definitely denies Dracula being the historical Vlad Tepes because of his age (unless Rondo of Blood takes place in the 23th century). Dracula's age from that game is actually something what makes me more confident in my theory since I just can't think of any other reason for why else they would go so blatantly against Akumajou Densetsu's story. What also might be interesting to note is that Toru Hagihara worked on both Rondo and Dracula Densetsu II. So he might very well have been aware of CV Dracula predating his Akumajou Densetsu appearance when establishing Dracula's age in the manual.   

[1] You're welcome. To be honest, I was afraid I might come off as too harsh.

[2] Interesting. I wonder about the time frame. And do the people still think that way or have they forgotten by now? Still I think I can concede this point.

[3] Also interesting. Is Soleiyu a mistranslation or is it just the way Soleil is written in Japanese? That is the way I see the existing plot, but I'm not convinced either of our points of view is necessarily correct. Where I stand on it right now I think either could be possible, though.

[4] Hmmm... I should point out that 100 odd years ago is perfectly acceptable grammar outside of the tone in this particular intro. Sounds like it's saying '100 something years' or 'about 100 years'? If so it's kinda hard to say what the number of years beyond 100 it could be without knowing the more about the common use of the original phrase. I'd say at most it's less than 150 years and more than say 101 years. But, yes, I agree on the rest.

[5] Just the two points I mentioned. Didn't mean to imply that there were more.

[6] I don't take that age as a denial. There is no reason to believe that he didn't originate centuries before and simply usurp the name of a line of nobles. For all we know Dracula could be the Real Vlad III and Vlad II and so on and so forth for centuries into the past. If he had followers he could have easily have used them to fake a family or perhaps he may even have had a real family before Lisa on multiple occasions.

I think it might very well be the case that the idea of Dracula being far older than the historical figure was intended from much earlier in the series' development and possibly even from the beginning now that you mention that detail.

The CV1 manual says something like "once Dracula was brought back in this world" and then continues to recount the Christopher story. This sounds to me like this Christopher was not meant to be the first Belmont who fought Dracula. Unless a non-Belmont fought Dracula before, I guess? So it's pretty odd that afterwards Dracula Densetsu went on to act like this Christopher is the first guy who did this.

I call shenanigans on the entire affair surrounding DDen and AjDen! 

[Crying Freeman]

Was watching the gaming historian on youtube, he brought up nintendo power with a CVIII walkthrough. I paused on the game description, and the first sentence read "In Castlevania III, you play the role of Trevor Belmont, youthful hero and originator of the Belmont warlord line."

I know NP isn't the greatest official source or anything, but going by this Trevor was the first Belmont to fight Drac, which obviously fits with Iga's timeline. What makes this more significant is the date, which would've been around the time CV3 came out. So the CV1 manual confirms Chris before Simon, and this can be used to show Trevor was the first, therefore before Chris.

I do have to say, I believe the typo at the beginning really was a mistake based on miscommunication, and that they might've intended for the game to either be about Chris originally but the GB devs were like "No", or they didn't know about Chris and made up Ralph/Trevor so they could make a prequel. The C could be a coincidence, but I believe it was put there later, possibly after they changed him from Chris to Raplh or from when they might've originally written him as Chris. Something else we can use to show it was a mistake was how the English verison doesn't even mention "100 or so years" before Simon, so when they were translating and changing the game for the US and PAL releases it was changed.

[Inccubus]

Actually I'd say that there is nothing official to be found in NP outside of interviews with staff members of given game.
Personally, I don't take the US version of either game into account at all. The original staff of the game was likely not even involved with the localization except to perhaps have provided some notes maybe.

[Crying Freeman]

Actually I'd say that there is nothing official to be found in NP outside of interviews with staff members of given game.
Personally, I don't take the US version of either game into account at all. The original staff of the game was likely not even involved with the localization except to perhaps have provided some notes maybe.

Yeah US publications in general didn't really care, they just tried to sell the game, but I thought it possibly could've been taken from some original Japanese thing or whatever. It's like old school box art for anime styled games in a way, how they changed the style to realistic, western comic book or metal album style lol.

[zangetsu468]

It's like old school box art for anime styled games in a way, how they changed the style to realistic, western comic book or metal album style lol.

#simmonsbelmont #vampiresKISS

[Nagumo]

Yeah US publications in general didn't really care, they just tried to sell the game, but I thought it possibly could've been taken from some original Japanese thing or whatever. It's like old school box art for anime styled games in a way, how they changed the style to realistic, western comic book or metal album style lol.

I can understand your reasoning. However, Trevor being "the originator of the Belmont warlord line" would already conflict with the Japanese manual and intro, since it establishes the Belmonts as already having fighting experience before him. Although I suppose it would be odd for the NoA localisers to call him that. Not sure how Christopher was meant to relate to Simon and Trevor in NoA material.