Topic: Playfulness in Castlevania, and why it left

[aensland]

I would say the issue is that later vanias started trying to be more like anime. SotN does start this trend

I think you mean Rondo of Blood, the original animevania, but to be fair most of japanese games of that era and platform followed the same art formula

If SotN started something, it was the gothic/visual approach in the series' aesthetics, that was a signature of the series until the 2 first DSvanias returned to the bland anime shenanigans.   

[xscientist5000]

Look how SC4 is so grim and dark but has better mood then DS games or Judgment.

I side with superc4 - didn't know there were so many people on the opposite fence who like the anime / cute / Japanese humor, which being an American, I never fully understood. The darker and more realistic art style, the better for me. LOS would have been great if better music, better game-play mechanics, and better script writing. CV64 had it all for me. You can drag me through the mud all you want on that. It looks like neither of us are getting what we want anymore anyway.

[zangetsu468]

I side with superc4 - didn't know there were so many people on the opposite fence who like the anime / cute / Japanese humor, which being an American, I never fully understood.

I can see why people aren't attracted to DOS and POR. I still think OOE, art style and all had enough darkness. The only difference being that the colours in game weren't as dark and gritty as SCVIV, instead they were bright and more vibrant, but still fitted the gothic/ horror style in a different way. it didn't have that same oldschool feel that the original games gave us, it was more like a cross between Classic and Sotn.

CV64 had it all for me. You can drag me through the mud all you want on that. It looks like neither of us are getting what we want anymore anyway.

CVLOD is the best 3d CV to date. #crossyourheart

[Flame]

I also think a major element of CV playfulness that phased its original form out over time was wallmeat--the idea of fully-cooked wall shank was goofy and fun, and over time it just became a standard consumable. Enemies could hang onto them now, rather than smacking a brick and suddenly finding dinner.

BRING BACK MAH BRICK CHICKEN (BRICKEN?) KONAMI!

I remember LoS2 had an easter egg I appreciated- which was after the garden puzzle, (when you are trying to get the mirror of fate necklace back from pan's brother) if you hit the bird with a fireball at the end, it becomes a cooked chicken on a platter, which was amusing

I think you mean Rondo of Blood, the original animevania, but to be fair most of japanese games of that era and platform followed the same art formula

If SotN started something, it was the gothic/visual approach in the series' aesthetics, that was a signature of the series until the 2 first DSvanias returned to the bland anime shenanigans.   

yes, yess, you are right, Rondo did start that. though there is a clear tongue in cheek camp to rondo, despite also having some japanese humor. it's less of a horror game and more an "action" game, where the main character wears a bandanna and strikes cool poses in an animated cutscene. where one of the playable characters is a little girl in a frilly dress, who is actually the strongest character.

but games like the sorrow games, for example, dont have a whole lot of humor. SotN had some subtle humor, some subtle japanese humor, and some self referential/parody humor.

but later games just sort of copy SotN. and thats the issue. because of the rampant reuse of assets, it ends up just being repeated watered down SotN elements without the novelty value that say, made them funny.

Its hard to really put into words what I mean. then there's PoR, which tries to be funny, but be funny in an anime way, (haha look at the funny anime facial expression!) and it falls flat, imo

[Dracula9]

Personally the only funny things in Dawn I found were Hammer/Yoko meetcute interactions (might have been cliched as hell, but I got a chuckle out of 'em) and Dario/Dmitrii's fashion senses.

Wasn't much beyond those for me.

I think a part of it stems not only from asset reuse, but also just how lifeless the DSvanias feel (excluding OoE). I mean, you look at SotN (the game that started the formula they recycle) and you have dark brooding Gothic environments where every palette and color and light source has a defined and noticeable purpose in conveying the themes.

The DSvanias come along with photo-edited tiles and backgrounds, everything's very bright and washed-out looking, there's hardly any black or dark tones anywhere...none of it really felt like it had a soul and character to it, or at least not to me.

I bring this up as relevant to series playfulness because environmental feel sets up any comedic timing--for instance, SotN's Catacombs are eerie and otherworldly at times, and here's this goat skull on a pedestal and its carriers freak the fuck out and take off if you kill it before killing them. Olrox's Quarters is ominous and regal and the Chapel is really rather unsettling given the subject matter, but the Skelerangs cower in mortal fear of you if you get too close. Those same things in, say, Dawn, I probably wouldn't find as amusing since there isn't a contradictory tone in the area. The areas are dark and foreboding, but here's this goofy thing happening right in the middle of them--that's what made those little touches of humor in SotN nice, IMO.

Of course, SotN also implied that Alucard not only stood directly below where Master Librarian presumably takes his shits, but also rammed headfirst into the old fart's ass.

[suomynona]

Well, nothing in DoS made me laugh or something (apart of that cheesy Dario/Dmitri's death scene but that's more like: WTF was that?).
Castlevania's not a game designed for humors. They should be more like Easter egg then storyline (Like how you can stick Alucard's head into Master Librarian). DoS feels way to generic and computerized (especially with artwork. I'm fine with anime art itself, but it's just bad. Simply the worst anime art ever seen. At least have FF7, Yu-Gi-Oh or CV64 quality of art). I don't feel any living soul like in AoS (cannot describe better). PoR got a slight better, but still not good enough. Also, at the second ending division, the cheesy artwork and Arikado's very unusual appearance and dialogue ruined the scene which could be as epic as Lisa and Alucard scene at SotN. And why did Julius lose in a first place? If he kicked Soma's ass even though Julius was going easy on him, it's just illogical.

One thing: If Dracula hates Christianity, why does he have a damn Chapel on his own castle?

[Dracula9]

One thing: If Dracula hates Christianity, why does he have a damn Chapel on his own castle?

Irony.

And why did Julius lose in a first place? If he kicked Soma's ass even though Julius was going easy on him, it's just illogical.

Because he was restraining himself out of faith that Soma hadn't turned evil--you can kick a dude's ass six ways from Sunday but still hold back on the finishing blow--it doesn't make the outcome illogical, only one where you refuse to kill the opponent you've already proven your point to. Julius fought just seriously enough to, well, indicate that he was serious, and also to indicate that he's fully capable and prepared to kill Soma if it came down to it.

The fight in the Gardens was nothing more than a test.

[Nagumo]

One thing: If Dracula hates Christianity, why does he have a damn Chapel on his own castle?

The explanation that makes the most sense to me is that Dracula is not the original owner of the castle and that whoever owned it before him had no qualms about having a chapel. You could go even further and ask why Dracula has holy weapons lying around all over the place, which makes it even more likely there originally was no 'demon castle'. It's not something that's ever been addressed by the games but it's an interesting question that could be explored in the future.   

[theplottwist]

And why did Julius lose in a first place? If he kicked Soma's ass even though Julius was going easy on him, it's just illogical.

1. Age. One year can make a world of difference to someone who is 56.
2. The Vampire Killer lost a portion of its power after Aria.

One thing: If Dracula hates Christianity, why does he have a damn Chapel on his own castle?

Dracula hates god and humans, not religion. He believes religion to be just another tool to control mankind, as SotN shows. A demonstration of power, only.

Dracula9 already added "irony" which, for me, explains very well. Mocking religion is one of the OG ways evil beings have used to defy gods (and here Dracula does that by having a huge-ass cathedral filled to the brim with demons).

And, before the "doesn't it hurt him?" question arises: "religion" is not what weakens Dracula. Faith is, if we are to believe his legend (and taking a page here from what IGA said about faith, and what he does to the cross at the intro of DXC). He can have as many chapels and holy symbols as he wants. If no faith is involved, nothing will happen to him.

The explanation that makes the most sense to me is that Dracula is not the original owner of the castle and that whoever owned it before him had no qualms about having a chapel. You could go even further and ask why Dracula has holy weapons lying around all over the place, which makes it even more likely there originally was no 'demon castle'. It's not something that's ever been addressed by the games but it's an interesting question that could be explored in the future.   

I'd believe that more if The Adventure's manual hadn't said that Dracula built his castle at the outskirts of Transylvania:

"狂的な悪魔崇拝者であったドラキュラ伯爵は、トランシルバニアのはずれに暗黒の城を築き、毎夜悪魔の儀式を行っていた。"

[Nagumo]

I already had a feeling you would bring that up twist-kun. 
That's definitely true but I wonder how much attention IGA paid to Dracula Densetsu's manual story. It might have been one of those details that got ignored by the IGA canon later on, such as Alucard becoming a vampire because of a pact Dracula made with a demon instead of him being dhampir. There's of course also the claim that Christopher was the progenitor of the Belmont family which ended up being changed. So I personally consider any claims from that manual to be doubtful unless it information that's repeated in IGA-approved sources. That's just my take on things, of course. It's also a convenient way for me to keep entertaining the thought that Dracula's castle used to be a normal castle that later ended up being corrupted.

[theplottwist]

I already had a feeling you would bring that up twist-kun. 
That's definitely true but I wonder how much attention IGA paid to Dracula Densetsu's manual story. It might have been one of those details that got ignored by the IGA canon later on, such as Alucard becoming a vampire because of a pact Dracula made with a demon instead of him being dhampir. There's of course also the claim that Christopher was the progenitor of the Belmont family which ended up being changed. So I personally consider any claims from that manual to be doubtful unless it information that's repeated in IGA-approved sources. That's just my take on things, of course.

I'm a predictable goose u_u

Also, I agree that the retconed details exist. My rule is a bit different though: Whatever IGA has not contradicted stays the same. Since he didn't contradict much, then almost everything stays, which kinda follows into the next point...

It's also a convenient way for me to keep entertaining the thought that Dracula's castle used to be a normal castle that later ended up being corrupted.

And this I also agree with, mostly because on Dawn Arikado says that "the summoning of the Demon Realm" turns the structure where its summoned on into a Demon Castle (which is how Celia is making her castle into a "replica" of Dracula's castle). This would mirror exactly what Dracula was described to do on CVIII and The Adventure.

[suomynona]

Well, if Christianity is about god, which Dracula hates because he thinks god made his first wife die, Dracula hates Christian god = Draclua hates Christianity. At the time of Dissonance (chronologically first MetroidVanias and first one to have a chapel inside the castle), Dracula, not only hating the god, hates humans too, because  they killed his second wife, which was killed by witch hunt; organized by none other then church, at least. So it's not shown in the storyline, but I assume that he hates Christianity as well. My assumption about the Chapel is that it is not Christian chapel but a chapel to practise dark magics and rituals.

Also, only thing I have to say about Julius VS Dario is nothing but a shitty storytelling.

[zangetsu468]

One thing: If Dracula hates Christianity, why does he have a damn Chapel on his own castle?

It's the exact reason that can be applied to why he has dominion over angelic and holy beings, because he does.
The other reason is blaspheme. Which chapel have you every visited that contains knights that will stab you, or swords/ weapons that levitate and attack you  of their own accord. A chapel is supposed to be a place of prayer and calm, yet in this chapel the confessional contains a priest that either blesses you or stabs you (depending on what you equip).

Dracula 9 is correct, it's irony, it's taking the house of God and giving it a twisted meaning. Given Dracula is the Satan equivalent of CV's original universe I don't see why he wouldn't have a chapel. I seem to also recall HoD and COTM also having a chapel.

Well, if Christianity is about god, which Dracula hates because he thinks god made his first wife die, Dracula hates Christian god = Draclua hates Christianity. At the time of Dissonance (chronologically first MetroidVanias and first one to have a chapel inside the castle), Dracula, not only hating the god, hates humans too, because  they killed his second wife, which was killed by witch hunt; organized by none other then church, at least. So it's not shown in the storyline, but I assume that he hates Christianity as well. My assumption about the Chapel is that it is not Christian chapel but a chapel to practice dark magics and evil powers.

Your assumption is misguided imo, aside from the part about dark magic and rituals.
Dracula was once a religious man, better yet as Plottwist put it, he was a man of faith. He believe that his God had forsaken him with the death of his wife, so he curses God and finds a way to live for eternity; that's step 1.
Dracula's wife gets burned at the stake after being accused of witchcraft, so he wages his war on Humanity; step 2.

Not sure regarding the Japanese version of SOTN, but in the ENG version when Richter says "Man kind ill needs a saviour such as yourself", Dracula replies "Perhaps the same could be said of all religions".

[chainsawmidget]

One thing: If Dracula hates Christianity, why does he have a damn Chapel on his own castle?

There was a sale and he didn't want to pass up a good deal. 

[suomynona]

Your assumption is misguided imo, aside from the part about dark magic and rituals.
Dracula was once a religious man, better yet as Plottwist put it, he was a man of faith. He believe that his God had forsaken him with the death of his wife, so he curses God and finds a way to live for eternity; that's step 1.
Dracula's wife gets burned at the stake after being accused of witchcraft, so he wages his war on Humanity; step 2.

Yes. I do agree. Dracula in fact hates religion itself. What I meant was that he practices his magical power inside the Chapel, like Chapel draws him more dark powers.