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Offline The Puritan

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Was Simon using the Vampire Killer in CV2?
« on: November 02, 2017, 06:28:41 PM »
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The multiple purchasable whips suggest he's not, since he wouldn't need to buy them if he had the good old VK. One wonders if Dracula's curse prevented him from using the VK so he had to make do with those other whips.

Of course, you could argue that he was merely buying upgrades and for all we know that's exactly it. But I find it more interesting if he actually beat Drac handicapped like that.

Offline AdrianTepes

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Re: Was Simon using the Vampire Killer in CV2?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2017, 07:07:13 PM »
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As far as I know he is still using the Vampire Killer, and the different whips you buy are upgrades for it, as you guessed. Probably in the same way you picked up upgrades for it in Castlevania and Castlevania III and not a different whip, even if it looks like it. In fact as ridiculous as it sounds Haunted Castle's sword is usually seen as a Vampire Killer upgrade too and not as a totally different weapon.
But, yeah, the idea of Simon not being able to use the Vampire Killer due to the curse is amazing.
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Offline TriforceOfAether

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Re: Was Simon using the Vampire Killer in CV2?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2017, 07:18:19 PM »
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Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't Simon the last person who could upgrade the whip.

It could be said that he permanently upgraded the Vampire Killer in the process, which would explain why future Belmonts didn't have to use the basic whip
(other than game mechanic and design changes).   



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Offline uzo

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Re: Was Simon using the Vampire Killer in CV2?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2017, 09:27:28 PM »
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I don't think there is any official source that has clarified this. I'm not even sure if the Vampire Killer was even really an established thing at that point in the series' history. It may not make sense cause it was never a thing to begin with at that time.

That leaves only fan theories now. Maybe the curse made him too weak to wield it or had some effect?

EDIT:

Went to check and the CV1 and CV2 manuals have no mention of a Vampire Killer. CV1 says "magic whip" and CV2 says simply "the whip". So there ya go. No official word on the subject. It was never a thing at that time in the series. I think CV3 would be the first.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 09:33:22 PM by uzo »

Offline thernz

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Re: Was Simon using the Vampire Killer in CV2?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2017, 10:59:11 PM »
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didnt john morris's whip also upgrade

i dont think there's any narrative implications to gather though bc of what uzo said

at best, i would just assume he's upgrading the same whip, and purchasing the upgrades

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Was Simon using the Vampire Killer in CV2?
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2017, 07:08:18 AM »
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This is no different to Juste upgrading the whip, which is the VK and was passed down from Simon. Plus, in the original CV Simon is using the VK and the upgrades are leather whip>Morning Star(short)>Morning Star(long). They simply added 2 new forms and deleted one.

Also technically Simon doesn't buy the last upgrade, it's unlocked.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64        ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE     RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS
                                                                          v
                                                                          BE>*
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline Mysterii

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Re: Was Simon using the Vampire Killer in CV2?
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2017, 01:51:27 PM »
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Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't Simon the last person who could upgrade the whip.

Actually, John Morris was the last one to do so.  But you could argue that Jonathan did it last when he fought Richter in PoR and unlocked the whip's true potential.

Offline Nagumo

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Re: Was Simon using the Vampire Killer in CV2?
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2017, 04:48:56 PM »
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Technically the answer is "no" because the Vampire Killer wasn't established at the time as Uzo pointed out. It's one of those things that stopped making sense after certain retcons were made. I suppose you could think of a reason to make it fit with the IGA canon but the originally intended premise of Simon's Quest was that it was "the final tale" so it's probably easier to just straight up ignore the bits that no longer make sense.

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Was Simon using the Vampire Killer in CV2?
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2017, 06:59:06 PM »
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I don't think anything needs to be ignored as Iga later made reference back to the flame whip with Richter's default item crush in SOTN.

It also seems that chronologically after Simon's Quest, the default form for the VK is its Morning Star form.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64        ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE     RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS
                                                                          v
                                                                          BE>*
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline X

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Re: Was Simon using the Vampire Killer in CV2?
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2017, 10:41:27 PM »
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Quote
didnt john morris's whip also upgrade

It did. Three levels of power to be precise. The final level was the lightning whip look. Interestingly enough Reinhardt has a similar final power-up for his whip in LoD
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Was Simon using the Vampire Killer in CV2?
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2017, 06:13:59 AM »
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Actually, John Morris was the last one to do so.  But you could argue that Jonathan did it last when he fought Richter in PoR and unlocked the whip's true potential.

I agree with this. The Morris family are not true Belmonts, they need the Lecarde bloodline and the ritual and to fight the VK's memory to win. (As well as POR not having main weapon upgrades in general).

One could even go so far as to say that after Richter it receded to the leather whip, it was passed to Quincy carried it but never directly used it during the events of Bram Stoker's novel, then to John who unlocked its Morning Star form, and onto Jonathan who inherits it in its upgraded yet 'locked' form.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64        ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE     RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS
                                                                          v
                                                                          BE>*
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline The Bloody Time Lord

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Re: Was Simon using the Vampire Killer in CV2?
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2017, 02:34:04 PM »
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Harmony of Dissonance --which is as much of a direct sequel to Simon's Quest as we'll probably ever get, having gone out of its way to establish Juste as Simon's grandson and confronting him with Wraiths that look like the decayed zombie of his grandfather while once again the Relics of Dracula play a huge part in the story-- very clearly establishes (albeit through gameplay) that the Vampire Killer can be altered with various tips on the end and magical stones inserted into (I guess) the pommel. As a strictly gameplay feature, this didn't mean much to me until the feature started cropping up in other games enough that I took notice. Trevor Belmont could do it in his (noncanon) mode in Curse of Darkness, but even in the actual canon story, when Trevor wields the whip, it glows in a manner suggesting his gameplay mode's alterations, which leads me to think there's actually a link there and that while Trevor Mode isn't canon, his ability to alter the whip was, which could suggest Juste's ability to do so might actually be an in-universe thing.

So if Simon's ancestor could do it, and his grandson could do it, there's zero reason for me to think that Simon couldn't do it if he had the tools and know-how to pull it off.

The best part is that Harmony of Dissonance, through that same feature, implies that Christopher Belmont actually possessed a relic that allowed the Vampire Killer to literally fling fireballs. Badass.

It's a shame Konami doesn't really want all of this money of ours.

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Re: Was Simon using the Vampire Killer in CV2?
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2017, 09:50:41 PM »
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I think the upgrades are 'attachments' to the whip.
Similar to how Gabriel finds Gandolfi add-ons to the already-existing Combat Cross, in the other timeline, Simon probably just attaches things to the whip to change its behavior, such as adding thorns, chains, or even fire, to the already-existing whip.
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Re: Was Simon using the Vampire Killer in CV2?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2017, 11:15:34 PM »
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this is an interesting question...  i really looked at it like you're buying some form of the power-ups from the first game.
or a method of upgrading it like TGmagoo was saying, since the whip is magical in nature and seems to be able to take many forms.


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Re: Was Simon using the Vampire Killer in CV2?
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2017, 04:43:44 PM »
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