Topic: Professional Opinion about Lords of Shadow's Musical Score

[Vampire Killer]

(Most of my "friends" tend to think I dislike things just to "be different." The smarter ones, over time, realize that's not the case, but some of 'em are still real big dicks who won't let that pretension go.)

Or maybe you really are just stuck up and too damned picky. Maybe not. For me, LoS is pure CV. Sometimes, the biggest obstacle to enjoyment is ourselves.

[Abnormal Freak]

Well, if me being "too stuck-up" were the case, I'd like to know how I could become less stuck-up. :p But the thing is, these people don't like what I like, so...is it really hard for them to understand that differing people have differing tastes? I mean, the majority of what I like may be rather niche and unpopular, but it exists for a reason (because the people who made it like it and have that kind of mindset), and there are those of us out there who like it. So, if I were actually stuck-up and unwilling to like anything but a few things, then that wouldn't explain why I'm so heavily into the music, movies, comics, and video games that I am, heh. And actually, I listen to far more music and watch far more movies and all that than any of them.

[e105beta]

Since we're on the discussion of the music...

Am I the only one who hears the Dracula final boss music from Castlevania 1 in the Carmilla battle?

Castlevania Lords of Shadow Carmilla Boss Walkthrough 1/2 (LOS HD xbox 360 Gameplay)

Starts at 9:50.

EDIT: It plays the whole fight once she monsters up.

[shelverton.]

I like a few of the tracks in the game, but I can't tell most of them apart.. they're honestly not very memorable.
I wonder if this Oscar dude even listened to the older Castlevania music? I don't think so. Maybe Konami specifically told him not to, which is really sad. And might I add; Disrespectful to the longtime fans of the series. The music was probably the one thing that castlevania was ALWAYS praised for, so I don't understand why they'd change it completely. "It wouldn't fit with LoS" someone cries, but even so, did they really have to move THIS far away from the roots? What about a happy medium?`

With Michiru Yamane it's quite obvious that she studied the old soundtracks, cause her work in Bloodlines and Symphony sound like a natural continuation to the classic Castlevania sound. She absolutely NAILED what Castlevania was all about, while also giving it her own unique style. Some might argue that she was making the same 2-3 songs over and over in the end, but I still think she did a fantastic job. Better than any other video game composer I can think of at the moment.

EDIT: That video with the Carmilla fight... damn. The guy talks for 4 minutes about how he's not gonna talk during gameplay. He explains a million times that he's gonna pause the game whenever he has something important to say. People DESPERATELY need to learn how to EDIT their videos. Gonna listen to the music now.

[Valtiel]

With Michiru Yamane it's quite obvious that she studied the old soundtracks, cause her work in Bloodlines and Symphony sound like a natural continuation to the classic Castlevania sound. She absolutely NAILED what Castlevania was all about, while also giving it her own unique style. Some might argue that she was making the same 2-3 songs over and over in the end, but I still think she did a fantastic job. Better than any other video game composer I can think of at the moment.

I happen to disagree. In fact, I think there's very little continuity with what came before, and we simply notice less because she's basically always been constrained to midi-quality hardware. You'll naturally feel a bigger difference between the fully orchestrated music of LoS because there's 3 generations of consoles in between, and a completely different way to make music. But the way Yamane introduced electric sounds and high speed riffs to the soundtrack isn't less "revolutionary" than what Araujo did.

Which is also Yamane's limit: when she got to work on hardware that allowed for higher quality than she was used too, she failed to make the same jump other composers did. While she was doing this:

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people like Sakimoto got this far on an previous generation console:

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I guess I just don't see Yamane's much as THAT good (there's plenty of composer in her generation of gaming, not just Sakimoto or Mitsuda, who managed to produce better works), but she was definitely above average. WELL above average. I really like LoI's soundtrack, but it was as removed from the series' roots as Araujo's OST is, if not more.

[shelverton.]

I guess I just don't see Yamane's much as THAT good (there's plenty of composer in her generation of gaming, not just Sakimoto or Mitsuda, who managed to produce better works), but she was definitely above average. WELL above average. I really like LoI's soundtrack, but it was as removed from the series' roots as Araujo's OST is, if not more.

It's funny how you mention LoI, cause that was quite frankly the least Castlevaniaesque soundtrack Yamane has ever done, IMO. And it's also my least favourie (give or take a few tracks.) So I can't argue with you there.

What I'm saying is that Yamane picked up on melodies and harmonies from earlier Castlevania games and gave them her own flavour. It's not hard to see that the Clockwork theme from Dracula's Curse was a huge inspiration for many of her songs, starting with Prayer of a Tragic Queen, continuing with Wood carving Partita and so on. Tracks like Calling from Heaven, Leon's Theme from LoI, Clocktower from CoD, The Colossus (OoE) and a few others sound like typical Yamane songs, and they also share a certain "vibe" that arguably started in Dracula's Curse ("Riddle" to be more precise. I know people will disagree here, but I hear what I hear..).

I always felt songs like Reincarnated Souls are very true to the series roots too. Bakc in the day, before anyone even knew (or cared) who the composers were, I remember thinking that Bloodlines had much better music than Super Castlevania 4, cause it sounded more like the older games. But hey, that's just me.

[Zobias]

The score from Lords of Shadow is not an expansion of themes from an existing series rather it is the 1st piece so any titles after LOS the score will be either expanions of the main themes or new pieces all together. Thats what most people don't understand...

I'll use Howard Shore as example for the LOTR each CD had different music but each had its main themes that signified the Lead or Lead characters or were expanions of the main theme.

[Valtiel]

I always felt songs like Reincarnated Souls are very true to the series roots too. Bakc in the day, before anyone even knew (or cared) who the composers were, I remember thinking that Bloodlines had much better music than Super Castlevania 4, cause it sounded more like the older games. But hey, that's just me.

I think the core problem here is that the older Vanias (1 to 3) were published on such a primitive piece of hardware that 5 monkeys blowing a flute sounded closer to it than actual music does. I mean listen to:

Castlevania 3 Dracula's Curse - Beginning

I have tears in my eyes just listening but... it's a 20 seconds loop. Almost all the old OST suites were about 1 min long. They're glorified ringtones. Even Yamane had to move away from that, try and make it evolve. I think she was facilitated compared to Araujo because she began working on games where the OST wasn't supposed to follow the action (the game structure had not changed, and nobody was expecting anything more than a catchy tune to listen to while sidescrolling from one screen to the next) and because she could factually continue producing music with synth sounds and midi samples - she just made it more complex and gave it her own style, and it felt just right.

Making an orchestrated OST that is faithful to CV's roots would be incredibly hard, in my opinion. Classicvania music is... happy. It's very energetic stuff. When it tries to be "scary", it heavily falls upon using "church sounds" (something Yamane exaggerated with imho, there's only so much you can do with choirs and organs). It works fantastic inside a videogame, but would class with any pretension of "realism" or immersion. It screams "this is a GAME, enjoy!". Which is fantastic in its own way, but I wonder if it could be made work inside a game like LoS.

If anything, it's somewhat criminal that they didn't even attempt at putting in something like this:

Castlevania - Bloody Tears

It would have worked fine, even if just for credits, or as background during a FMV scene. Or during the last fight. Bloody Tears COULD have worked, and they should have made it work.


However, you need to consider something. Imagine hiring a musician you consider having some talent, and then asking him to re-make someone else's music instead of giving it its own spin. I don't know, I guess Araujo deserved his chance, and while overall his work is indeed somewhat disconnected from the serie's roots, some of the suites are amazing. Courtyard is breathtaking, and Gabriel's Theme is the best Belmont theme after Simon's.

[shelverton.]

I dunno if this thread is even right for me... but anyway, I'd much rather have "glorifed ringtones" than cookie cutter hollywoodesque "epicness", even though I realise times have changed. 20 sec loops would not work in LoS, but there must be a happy medium. There are examples of epic, cinematic scores that are totally memorable, such as;

Shadow Of The Colossus OST - Counterattack

I just wish the songs in LoS were memorable and hummable like this.

Then again, I think the NES version of Beginning sounds great too.

[Valtiel]

I dunno if this thread is even right for me... but anyway, I'd much rather have "glorifed ringtones" than cookie cutter hollywoodesque "epicness", even though I realise times have changed. 20 sec loops would not work in LoS, but there must be a happy medium. There are examples of epic, cinematic scores that are totally memorable, such as;

That's an entirely different argument; disliking Araujo's OST is perfectly fine. I find it very good, with some outstanding pieces, but also extremely flawed. He could have injected some more personality in the tunes. Too often he played safe.
Plus, pulling out the SotC OST isn't fairplay. It's an heavyweight right there.


As a side note, on the issue of music being "hummable", I think that's one of the most crucial (and fantastic) contradictions of CV: it's supposed to be a gothic horror saga. We COMPLAIN if things get to bright or not "scary" or gothic enough. And yet, the music is all catchy and happy and hummable... and we love it. Makes you think, in a way.

(Besides, I really like the NES CV music. I have it on loop on my MP3 players. But still, it's very safe, very simple loops )

[thernz]

why are we insulting synths by saying monkeys blowing flutes is more like them. they're distinct sounds of their own. there's a perk richness to them i think. the way they are punctuated and crisp lets you enjoy the different layers more easily too imo.

how does valtiel feel about harmony of dissonance's music

[crisis]

why are we insulting synths by saying monkeys blowing flutes is more like them.

because the old music for the old saga is old & outdated

[Munchy]

Sure, it's more of what you'd expect out of a generic fantasy motif. But in a way, that detracts from the charm of how unique of an experience Castlevania has been. It was serious, yet dove into uniqueness and nonconformity by breaking out some awesome tunes, and delivering a sometimes subtle yet appreciable sense of humor.

Even though it wasn't generic 'epic' medieval music, it was still fitting because it was KICK ASS music. You're a badass warrior with a whip kicking ass, and making your way to Dracula. Then you kick his ass too.

Stuff generic and stereotypical material into Castlevania, and you will get a more generic and less unique experience. This is pretty much the definition of Lords of Shadow. A more generic Castlevania game.

Sure, generic sells more, but it also stifles the series' charm in the process. This is why people are having beef against Lords of Shadow, and it's more generic music.

QFT. I'm not going to magically like a soundtrack because a "professional" says I should. That's like listening to Uwe Boll when he says his movies are genius because he has a PhD in Literary Arts.

Also, Araujo can make some great music, as is evident by the Waterfall theme. Most of his other tunes don't live up to it, though.

[Ahasverus]

Since we're on the discussion of the music...

Am I the only one who hears the Dracula final boss music from Castlevania 1 in the Carmilla battle?

Castlevania Lords of Shadow Carmilla Boss Walkthrough 1/2 (LOS HD xbox 360 Gameplay)

Starts at 9:50.

EDIT: It plays the whole fight once she monsters up.

NOp you are not. The "Carmilla" song is a clear readaptaition of the old Dracula battle theme, the start is the same and they share the same chord progressions until Carmilla introduces a new melody. One of the finest tracks in the score.

Edit: It seems the "Carmilla" song is broken up in parts in the game, This is the "Carmilla" that came with the soundtrack, and it¡s the one that shares the chord progressions with the original theme
Castlevania Lords Of Shadow OST: Carmilla
Castlevania OST - Out Of Time Part 2 (Stage 6)

[Vampire Killer]

and Gabriel's Theme is the best Belmont theme after Simon's.

I totally agree.  I have found myself humming it while driving.