Topic: Metroid: Samus returns

[RichterB]

@RichterB
There are some fundamental problems with Other M though. Forget the story elements and narrative, there are a few things inherently wrong with the game which could've been easily solved:

- FPS puzzle sequences, including the final boss fight (notice I didn't lump firing missiles in with either of these); remove entirely
- Slow walking sequences; remove entirely
- "Recharge" ability; remove entirely
- Spammable dodge mechanic; solve by adding a meter which depletes
- Extremely Short Campaign; lengthen the game legitimately
- Poor graphics compared to previous console 3D Metroid games (they were still using billboarding for some of the blast effects); invest more in polishing the game.

These things alone are enough to make me dislike the game as a Metroid game. It strayed too far from the original series imho.

Some redeeming factors imo were:

- Melee elements
- Switching between 3rd and 1st person was interesting
- Generally the game played well

The linearity is a matter of opinion, the issue here with Other M is that everyone wanted a 3D version of a Super Metroid/ Zero Mission, but what we got was a linear 2.75'D Metroid Fusion. (Don't get me wrong, I don't hate fusion, but it's not one of my favourites.)

With Samus Returns I'm about 11 hours in now and as X said, I'm not seeing any bullshit here. I'm surprised the level of challenge is decent and stays pretty true to the original game. The semi-cinematics which occur only during Metroid fights in a moment of "meleeism" are handled well, and it doesn't take away the players viewpoint etc. (so they've taken something from Other M and it's worked). I can see where MS have put in their two cents in certain places (pulling the blocks with the grapple for one is reminiscent of Gabriel in LOS1 wrapping the combat cross around objects and pulling, for example) but it doesn't detract from the experience of being "Metroid". Enjoying it quite a lot thus far. It makes me want to go back and finish the original at some point.

Oh, I agree there was a real mix of weird ideas that should be dropped. Some traditional elements were taken away without good reason, much like Zelda: Breath of the Wild.

Those slow-walking sequences/1st-person examination sequences I lumped into "camera experiments." The slow-walking view was potentially interesting if reworked more naturally into the "Click-Stick" action-aiming view from the full-3D Bionic Commando game. I think some of the weirdness came from a desire to make it a sort of narrative-driven detective game; it was trying to be a new genre rather than being Metroid's Ocarina of Time. (One could argue that Prime was its OoT moment, but there's a little bit of difference there, IMO, because OoT didn't turn Zelda into 1st-person dominant, even though it probably could have successfully done so.)

Anyway, my bottom line for Other M was, as you said "generally, the game played well." Prime 1 is my favorite Metroid game after Super Metroid, but even with all of its sequels, it never took full advantage of how Samus could move and interact with her environments because of the 3rd person-dominant perspective. The speed-booster segments of Other M are a great example. As you said, it was sort of "2.75'D Metroid Fusion," but it showed me the potential of 3rd person 3D and that it should be expanded on rather than having all Metroid development retract back to Metroid Prime.

I think I'll enjoy Samus Returns when I get to it, but I don't know if I'll be overly impressed. I've beaten the original, and while it was a product of its time, it had its own unique spin on things that I respect.

[zangetsu468]

@RichterB Have you played Primes 2/3? They made much better use of Samus' movement particularly with the use of off-the-wall kick jumping and introducing screw attack. In particular Prime 2 did a lot with spider ball,boss-fights and showcased more vertical environments. Not to mention it did the best job imo of giving that original/ Super Metroid feeling of isolation. (Prime 3 was more about interacting with objects and had more linear progression like Prime 1, but kept Samus' abilities from Prime 2.)

[Jazz Paladin Productions]

Prime 2 was pretty slick, much better than some people credit it for being...Amen to the Screw attack and morph ball battles!

I liked the atmosphere of Prime 1, it really did set the stage well...Even though prime 2 was pretty dark and bleak, the controls really improved and I still internally debate whether 1 or 2 was better...

The only thing Prime 3 did for me was to make Wii remote control viable for Prime 1 and 2....which made them even more immersive for me.

[RichterB]

I've played all the Prime games (except Pinball and Federation Force). I've played through Prime 2 two times, once on Gamecube when it came out and once on Wii via the Trilogy. While it was a nice "token" touch, I personally found the Screw Attack stuff to be awkward and forced compared to how it was handled in Other M. Prime 2 did double down on a lot of interesting ideas and mechanics, but the Light/Dark mechanic was way too overbearing (and uninspired) for me. I actually found it overly convoluted by the end. I did like the new suits it afforded Samus, but in terms of areas, I think only the Torvus Bog felt right to me.

Something about Prime 2's overall motif felt...sterile and bland. Prime 3 was too linear at first, but it got better as it went along and had some nice use of the Wiimote. I think I had more fun with it than Prime 2, and it had some interesting puzzles, but I don't remember too much about it. It seemed like it was remixing planet ideas, too, IIRC. I certainly wasn't blown away by it, I know that. I'll probably have to replay the first three again, eventually. What's strange is, while it was limited, I really enjoyed Prime Hunters a good deal--I'm talking the single-player. I felt it used the planet hopping with getting those special keys better in some ways than Prime 3. One thing I do know is I thought the Phazon stuff was overdone, especially by Prime 3. The Dark Samus plot bugged the heck out of me, because we were just coming off the SA-X plot, and to milk that for three games was overkill and uninspired.

Metroid Prime 1 felt the most balanced, but then, I readily admit it relied a lot on Super Metroid. I think the Chozo ruins/jungle and the frozen drifts areas, which were not in Super Metroid in any form, were more exciting than anything new the series did afterward. As for the Spider Ball...it's nice and all, but it's not the Metroid II Spider Ball. It should have been called the Magnetic Ball or something. I don't want another 1st-person-centric Metroid...or, if I have to have one, then I want a game where you can switch between 1st and 3rd person on the fly after that entry in a much more fluid and comprehensive way than what we got in Other M. And to be clear, I'm not saying Prime 2 and/or 3 were bad games, I just felt I'd already gotten enough out of that scan-visor-type FPA formula with Prime 1. Prime 1 was actually set to be 3rd person originally, but the developers had too many troubles dealing with it, so they settled on 1st person. So to me, the work should go on. I mean, we wouldn't want every 3D Zelda to be 1st person, as far as I am aware. (By teasing the elaborate Morph Ball sequences and Screw Attack sections, it's kind of a concession that there is more to be done in the 3rd person.) But I'm pretty sure Metroid Prime 4 is just going to be Metroid Prime, with maybe a bit of the newer Halo games thrown into it. Maybe I'll be surprised.

[theANdROId]

I finally finished Samus Returns, so I came back to read through this topic.  I think I agree with just about everything Jorge had to say.  I was a little worried about how Mercury Steam would handle the game, but I think it was pretty phenomenal and overall a welcome addition to the series.  I absolutely hated being stuck with using the Circle Pad thing for movement though.  The 360 degree aiming was kinda neat (which might be difficult to do when using the d-pad) but I'd sacrifice that for the better/tighter control that the d-pad would offer.  Although I loved the chase and battle with the giant digger when all is said and done, it was these areas especially (and battles with the various metroids) that made me really want the d-pad for control.  I think there were plenty of hits/deaths I could have avoided -- caused by a slip or error resulting in jumping straight up and not at an angle, or turning into the morph ball, or whatever else.

Did anyone feel like damage taken was a bit high for the normal mode?  While I did just say I think I took hits I could have avoided with d-pad control, throughout the whole game it felt like I only took a few hits before nearly being out of energy, even at the end when I had a bunch of E Tanks.

Any thoughts on the story progression as seen in the Chozo memories?

(click to show/hide)

It pretty clearly shows the Chozo arriving, discovering the X parasite, creating the metroids, and sealing away the metroids.  What about that last photo though where someone seems to have killed the Chozo?

And how about that ending?!

(click to show/hide)

Is it just a nod to the outcome we already know -- that the X make a comeback?  Is it a tiny teaser at a remake of Fusion?  Based on how much I liked this remake, I'd take a Mercury Steam remake of Fusion...especially if they give us some variety in control options!

[BLOOD MONKEY]

I played through it and found it to be a fairly mediocre reimagining of what seems to an experience pre-destined to be flawed no matter what you do to it. The new features didn't open any new possibilities for exploration and honestly just slowed down my experience. For what tries to be a streamlined game, it still has too many speed bumps. 6/10.

[theANdROId]

...what seems to an experience pre-destined to be flawed no matter what you do to it...

Wait, do you mean that about the original setting and story of Metroid 2?  If so, I don't think it's fair to say it's that bad.  The idea of Samus being alone on this planet, wandering around to find and eradicate all of these creepy life-sucking creatures seems like the perfect setting for a Metroid game.

The original Metroid 2 seemed kinda easy though and (at least for me) didn't evoke the feelings that other Metroid games did even though the story seems like it ought to do that really well!  The apprehension I felt when I first made it to Tourian in the NES game; in Tourian and Maridia (and maybe a little in the Wrecked Ship) in Super Metroid; in the Phazon Mines and some of Phendrana Drifts in Prime; in the Dark World in Prime 2; any time the SA-X showed up (especially that chase scene!) in Fusion...I wanted that from Metroid 2 while I hunted the various forms of Metroids, and I think it's fair to say Samus Returns did alright with that.  That's my favorite part of Metroid games!

[BLOOD MONKEY]

Wait, do you mean that about the original setting and story of Metroid 2?  If so, I don't think it's fair to say it's that bad.  The idea of Samus being alone on this planet, wandering around to find and eradicate all of these creepy life-sucking creatures seems like the perfect setting for a Metroid game.

I'm not talking about the idea behind the game, but the game itself. You hunt down 40 bosses, many of which are the same, and
the spider boss
ugh
The whole concept to me seems flawed at his core. There's also the segments with the spiderball, which are still slow and dumb.