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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2017, 01:11:21 AM »
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The strange thing is that Maxim is only able to overcome Evil Maxim in castle B (the castle associated with Evil Maxim) and not the castle that is associated with himself. You would expect it to be the reverse.

The thing is there is a sequence of events with with HoD which plays out between the 2 castles. Where as with Sotn it was linear, Normal Castle>Inverted Castle.

HoD is more complex, Death mentioned the two castles were supposed to eventually merge and  they were 2 "layers" or planes of the same castle. Lydia's sacrifice - which never ended up happening in game - was supposed to resurrect Dracula. It's my contention that at this instance (which occurs in the throneroom) the castle becomes "Castlevania" rather than 'formerly Castle Maxim' and this point there is no turning back for Maxim, as the influence of the remains consumes him once the sacrifice occurs. (The notion of the castle potentially becoming CV was touched upon by IGA in an interview from memory).

Dracula's resurrection never happens so the Castles remain unmerged. The next part is more technical; Maxim(A) in Castle A is the original component of Maxim, Maxim(B) in Castle B is the 'influenced' (by the remains; morally weak, evil, etc) component of Maxim. If you fight the original component only, you'd kill the whole Maxim(A) and Maxim(B) also ceases to exist. As opposed to killing Maxim(B) where you fight the 'influenced' portion of Maxim... (However you can still kill Maxim(B) in his entirety unless Lydie's bracelet is worn.)

If what Death says holds water, what happens in one layer effects the other layer, which is what I've explained above. If Maxim(A) dies, his will and both Castles go with it. The reason they've only made Maxim(B) react to Lydie's bracelet is twofold imo:

1) Evil/ 'influenced' (by Dracula, his remains or whatnot) individuals often react unfavourably to "good/pure things" or triggers that resemble them. The way this is handled CV games is by equipping something like a bracelet.

The bracelet resonating with Maxim is what finally purges Maxim(B) out of him, and then the remains resonate - in Castle B only, being associated with chaos, or whatever one wishes to call it.

I do believe if Juste had lost this battle, the castles would still merge, but with Maxim as the host body for Dracula: notice how the remains turn into Dracula Wraith whose second form is (you guessed it) a cluster of actual remains.. If Maxim(B) had won, Dracula would return the way he did with Isaac in COD imo. This may also have happened in Castle A, but it makes little difference if the Castles then merge. 

My take:
Why this only happens in Castle B is because B imo is the "Chaotic" or more demonic side of the castle which is why it's associated with Maxim(B); 2 Maxims with the same will except one is still clinging to good and retaining his humanity(A), while the other(B) is trying to resurrect Dracula, has extraordinary powers (compared to the original, which is the one you play as in Maxim mode) and has almost succumb to the influence of the remains.

Because the theme of the story re: Belmonts is a hero defeating evil/ Dracula, the shit only goes down in Castle B.

I could go more into this but I'm on a mobile device, so I'll try to summarise.. Let's say I'm leaning towards Castle B being the side from which "chaos" (perhaps via the influence of the remains, as we've seen Barlowe undergo in OOE) flows.. Therefore the Maxims(A+B) are the same physical being, fought at the same instance under slightly different circumstances. Fighting Maxim(B) would be like fighting Richter with the Holy Glasses, while fighting Maxim(A) would be like fighting Richter without them.

 
2) There's a logistical quality whereby the developers provide a number of endings. For example, there's no reason stated explicitly as to why Richter Belmont dying causes the Castle to collapse(or both Castles) in Sotn. (Shaft wanted Dracula's resurrection, he was using Richter to ward off other Vampires [and most likely open the seal in the 'infinite corridor' as per plottwist's theory] but in reality Alucard killing Richter should still allow him to progress, but it doesn't.)

Pertaining to my take in (1):
The purely straightforward way to see this outcome is that the Maxim(A or B) battle in the final room is when the 2 castles are starting to merge or overlap (like an eclipse); Either Maxim winning causes the merge, either Maxim losing stops the merge, but if good Maxim(A) loses then Maxim is lost, if 'influenced' Maxim(B) loses then the real ending happens.
I do believe with CV it can be that simple as the gameplay and design will come first with the story to support the themes/ ideas of the gameplay.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 03:57:13 AM by zangetsu468 »
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Offline Nagumo

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2017, 08:22:15 AM »
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That seems like such a complicated explanation, though. Couldn't it be simply the case that they messed up the programming and accidentally made it only possible to unlock the best ending in castle B while I should have been castle A?  That way everything would make sense. It almost seems that way if you read the dialogue when you go fight evil Maxim in castle B. He mentions how the real Maxim no longer exists within him and Juste also mentions something about being too late to save Lydie (supposedly because she already got a large portion of her blood drained by evil Maxim). All of this suggests the player got locked into a path to the worst ending. Compare this to the situation in castle A where Maxim is still struggling against evil Maxim and Lydie is unconscious but in better condition. There really is no reason why the best ending shouldn't have occured in castle A which makes me think the programmers pulled a Simon's Quest and messed up the endings.

I know the Double Pack version made some small tweaks to both AoS and HoD. I wonder if perhaps they fixed the endings in that version but nobody ever noticed the difference?     

     

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2017, 09:02:23 AM »
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The last paragraph of what I wrote literally explained the whole thing in a simplistic and concise way.

I think it's more complicated to assume they fucked it up, particularly that this isn't a game that was made in the 80's. The problem with assuming the game ends in Castle A is that you actually need to equip certain items to open up the floor and proceed to the final room in castle B. This seems very intentional, at the time the structure of the game was taking some inspiration from Sotn, down to the final room room of the game being the centre of the map. If you're saying they simply swapped the texts by accident then that explanation is more plausible, but the real ending has to be in castle B imo.

Juste thinking he's too late to save Lydie could be fluff or for a number of reasons (unless that text was swapped). They should've been clearer with the false ending(s). If ending A had some kind of Dracula returns vibe then it would've made more sense.

Don't know anything about those text alterations.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 09:09:47 AM by zangetsu468 »
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Offline Nagumo

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2017, 10:55:28 AM »
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The last paragraph of what I wrote literally explained the whole thing in a simplistic and concise way.

Actually, I also don't agree with the solution you came up with because I think it condradicts the story. In both castles you fight the "influenced Maxim". There isn't ending where Juste doesn't fight an influenced Maxim.  But whatever, if my own theory doesn't work either then all I can do is throw my hands in the air and give up. I might be putting more thought into this than IGA and his team did back in the day.   

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2017, 03:47:49 PM »
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Actually, I also don't agree with the solution you came up with because I think it condradicts the story. In both castles you fight the "influenced Maxim". There isn't ending where Juste doesn't fight an influenced Maxim.  But whatever, if my own theory doesn't work either then all I can do is throw my hands in the air and give up. I might be putting more thought into this than IGA and his team did back in the day.

Well you haven't agreed with any of my theories so far, therefore, it's to be expected. I think you've misinterpreted part of what I'd written, ie in the final room you fight Maxim. Both Maxim's are the same entity .. Aye how can I explain this .. Let's say if you go to castle B, castle A's Maxim isn't just waiting there eating a sandwich, essentially the same fight happens on a different 'layer' which determines the ending. It's one castle; two layers. In the ending we see one castle that's crumbled, not two castles, they were occupying the same space in 2 planes - and imo merging throughout the events of the game up to the Maxim battle(s).

Are you okay Nagumo? I know that we don't know one another but in the years I've been on the CVD I don't ever recall you saying that you'd throw your hands up about something.
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Offline Nagumo

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2017, 02:14:18 AM »
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Are you okay Nagumo? I know that we don't know one another but in the years I've been on the CVD I don't ever recall you saying that you'd throw your hands up about something.

I'm just frustrated because I'm noticing all these plot holes lately, and even though I try my best to resolve them, it only seems to result in more questions being raised. I even haven't mentioned all of them yet.

Anyway, I noticed an interesting difference between the standard castle A and castle B endings.

Castle A:



"She lost consciousness but... Somehow I made it in time!"

Castle B:



"She is still breathing but... Dammit! Didn't I make it in time?"

When comparing the dialogue, it really feels to me the best ending should have occured in castle A. Even if there was no programming mistake, I'm going to be arrogant here and say in that case the developers didn't understand their own story. 

     
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 02:17:32 AM by Nagumo »

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2017, 03:42:14 AM »
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If that is what you believe though, wouldn't it be more plausible to say they programmed in that one line into the wrong outcome/ Castle? Regardless of what's arrogant I'd say it's more plausible that they misprogrammed one line in the same place(both castles) rather than not understanding their own story.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that [in the event that] everything was as intended in both scripts, the part where Juste questions whether he made it in time refers to him seeing that larval like object (in the background) and believing Lydie's blood has been given to resurrect Dracula/ Maxim as the prospective host body.

What's more is that in the Japanese version Juste questions "Didn't I make it in time?" makes more sense, as opposed to the English translation's "I am too late!", followed by Maxim's "Welcome to the party Juste. You're late." Given the context, the Japanese version makes sense in context as a query rather than a statement.
Here's why:
Influenced Maxim then goes on to state
"Maxim? Oh his spirit no longer lives within me. And I owe it all to that woman. Look at a the strength she's given me".
At first glance this appears it should be the bad ending, however, after the remains resonate, Influenced Maxim states
"As long as I have this power, I have no need for this body! Here, have it!"... i.e. The body that had gained so much power from Lydie.
Dracula Wraith states (to Juste) "I'm not yet stable, but your blood will once again make me whole", Meaning Lydie may have had blood taken, but she wasn't supposed to be dead. Lydie was the initial sacrifice (blood) for Dracula, but suppose when this was interrupted, she was taken to the castle's core instead by Influenced Maxim, who either siphoned her for power or whatever.

So in conclusion I'd assume that perhaps they'd initially written the first piece of dialogue between Juste and Maxim for the opposite ending/ Castle. However, I don't believe the entire script is incoherent. Honestly HoD has shit going on in two places at once and is not the most straight forward story to begin with.

Did IGA ever interview regarding its plot?
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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2017, 04:07:23 AM »
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Alright so here's what I understand from it all. I mean, it was clear as day to me, but I will ask you to point out if there is some problem here.

In summary: For everyone to be saved, the evil spirit must be allowed to grow stronger than Maxim WHILE the remains of Dracula are on his vicinity.

If you approach Maxim from Castle A, Juste arrives in time to save Lydie -- hence his relieved comment. She is not bitten as Maxim is holding off the evil spirit. The ending, too, corresponds to it as no mention of bite marks are made.

However, the huge problem here is that, since Lydie was saved, the chain of events leading the evil spirit to acquire its own body CANNOT be attained. Juste has the relics, but the evil spirit does not have power/presence enough to manifest using them. In other words, if the evil spirit is to be destroyed, it must be allowed to gain enough power to break free from Maxim's body. On Castle A Juste arrives too early for that to happen.

Now, if you approach Maxim from Castle B, Juste is too late and Lydie has been bitten. The evil spirit has now gained power and is THIS close to finishing the deal. Juste fights it, and as we see, now it has power enough (and incentive enough, thanks to the bracelets reawakening Maxim) to break free from Maxim's body and become Dracula Wraith. Remember the story previously? If it dies within Maxim, Maxim dies too. Now that it has its own body, it can die alone by Juste's hands.

So it does make perfect sense for one thing to be attained in one castle and not on the other. On one castle the events unfold before Lydie is bitten. On the other, they unfold after. In one the spirit has not gained enough power to manifest outside of Maxim, on the other it has. On one Maxim holds presence enough to stop the spirit from biting her, on the other the spirit has full control of his actions and can bite her just fine.



« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 04:28:55 AM by theplottwist »
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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2017, 04:52:35 AM »
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aren't we forgetting the best ending where everyone lives

aren't we forgetting the almighty power of furniture here


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Offline Nagumo

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2017, 04:55:45 AM »
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Alright so here's what I understand from it all. I mean, it was clear as day to me, but I will ask you to point out if there is some problem here.
 
(snip)
 

I my opinion the solution you're offering contains two problems.

1) Why would Lydie live in the best ending if she dies in the worst ending? 

2) You mention how evil spirit sucking Lydie's blood gives him the power to break free from Maxim. But doesn't that condradict the reason given earlier in the story for why the evil spirit wanted Lydie's blood? He wanted to do it because it would give him enough power to completely surpress Maxim. Therefore, I don't think the evil spirit sucking Lydie's blood has an impact on him being able to break free from Maxim. I actually think the evil spirit has more reason to break free from Maxim's body in Castle A than he would in Castle B. If you interpet the evil spirit's action of breaking free from Maxim as an act of desperation, then he would have more motivation to do this in Castle A because Maxim is still restisting him. Compare this to the situation in Castle B where the evil spirit seems to be in complete control.       
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 04:57:47 AM by Nagumo »

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2017, 05:12:20 AM »
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1) Why would Lydie live in the best ending if she dies in the worst ending? 

Ignoring the fact that one is literally called "worst ending" and the other "best ending"?

Because the worst ending happens on Castle B, not Castle A. If Maxim dies on Castle A, she has not been bitten. If he dies on Castle B but the spirit doesn't get his own body, then her death is tied to him. The spirit HIMSELF says this, that his death will cause Maxim's and hers. How? No clue. He is not trying to make her into a vampire or something, so I don't know what kinda connection is this that would cause her to die if he dies. The only thing I get from this is that this connection depends on the spirit existing on Maxim's body. Affection? Attachment? Death does imply that Maxim holds Lydie VERY dear to his heart, enough for her blood to be special on this occasion. An attachment that the evil spirit by itself [i.e. on his own body] wouldn't have. Or maybe the spirit commands her death, and does it out of spite on its last moments? But I digress.

Quote
2) You mention how evil spirit sucking Lydie's blood gives him the power to break free from Maxim. But doesn't that condradict the reason given earlier in the story for why the evil spirit wanted Lydie's blood? He wanted to do it because it would give him enough power to completely surpress Maxim. Therefore, I don't the evil spirit sucking Lydie's blood has an impact on him being able to break free from Maxim. I actually think the evil spirit has more reason to break free from Maxim's body in Castle A than he would in Castle B. If you interpet the evil spirit's action of breaking free from Maxim as an act of desperation, then he would have more motivation to do this in Castle A because Maxim is still restisting him. Compare this to the situation in Castle B where the evil spirit seems to be in complete control.       

I got nothing. This is one of the doubts that will get us trapped in an infinite loop of me trying to explain it and you saying it makes no sense.

I see no contradiction whatsoever. It wanted the blood to overcome Maxim. It thought it had done it, but when the remains presented themselves, it saw a better use for the power it acquired from the blood. It's changing its goals as it goes along. It couldn't plan to "leave Maxim's body" before because the best plan at the time was "overcome Maxim". As soon as "leave Maxim's body" became a better plan, it changed goals.

I don't really get why the blood either must give him FULL POWER or NO POWER. Why not "power enough to almost override Maxim and to react to the remains, but not enough to swallow Maxim completelly"? He does say that Lydie's blood granted him power enough to overcome Maxim (but apparently not completelly, considering Maxim's comeback).

The spirit says the blood gave him power. He drank her blood on one ending and not on the other. On one ending he gains a body from the remains, and on the other he doesn't. I think the connection is pretty clear. He gained enough power to leave his body and embrace the remains, but not enough that he could completelly erase Maxim.

He can have all reason to break away from Maxim he wants on Castle A. Without enough power to do it (achieved on Castle B), no dice.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 05:28:39 AM by theplottwist »
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2017, 05:15:54 AM »
0

aren't we forgetting the almighty power of furniture here

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The real question is
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« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 05:17:43 AM by zangetsu468 »
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline X

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2017, 09:53:00 AM »
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Quote
aren't we forgetting the best ending where everyone lives

aren't we forgetting the almighty power of furniture here

And by collecting all the furniture pieces we get that one little snip-it of animation of Lydie leaning against Juste rather then her standing like a statue in the best ending sequence.
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Offline Shiroi Koumori

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2017, 02:25:35 AM »
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And by collecting all the furniture pieces we get that one little snip-it of animation of Lydie leaning against Juste rather then her standing like a statue in the best ending sequence.

This is the best ending of them all. Since IGA will always go for the best ending as canon, this just proves to us the true power of furniture collecting.  ;)

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2017, 08:48:36 AM »
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I might have thought of an alternate interpretation that doesn't require the endings to be swapped. What if, in the ending of castle A, Maxim is at no point possessed by the evil spirit and decides to fight Juste on his own accord? He does beg Juste to kill him, and after he refuses, Maxim says something like: "then if will make you change your mind!" and then proceeds to attack him. I always thought that last bit was the evil spirit talking (the fact that they used the portrait of evil Maxim could be seen as an indication of that), but now that I think about, it wouldn't really make sense  for the evil spirit to say that. He has absolutely no intention of losing to Juste. If that's the case, that would also explain why Juste wearing both bracelets has no effect on the ending: despite the fact that Maxim is still resisting the evil spirit, he sees no other option than to get himself killed in other to save Juste and Lydie from the evil spirit. Of course, that does raise the question: "Why doesn't Maxim just kill himself then?" but I think the whole "If you won't kill me, I'll make you kill me" thing is a trope that is used in other stories as well. So it's probably possible to justify it.             

edit: Zangetsu already came up with something similar, right? 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 08:54:58 AM by Nagumo »

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