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Offline KaZudra

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Re: Teaching Lords of Shadow in a college course
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2017, 04:45:21 PM »
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You'll have a nice presentation if you leave LoS2 out, that game was a plot-hole generator.

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Offline e105beta

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Re: Teaching Lords of Shadow in a college course
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2017, 03:06:19 PM »
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Truthfully, for me, the biggest thing I have issue with is Gabriel's remorse. Literally every "evil" thing he does before becoming a vampire - including becoming a vampire - is because he is made to do so by external forces or because there are no other options. It's kind of like Angel on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I love the show and character, but Liam (the human soul of Angel) should not feel remorse for the actions of the demon who set up shop in his body when his soul vacated.

I can understand his remorse. It's easy to play the game and say "Well Gabriel, it wasn't your fault, Zobek made you do it" but if I take a second to put myself in Gabriel's shoes, it becomes less simple.

If I woke up one day and my wife was dead, I'd be heartbroken, devastated, and furious. I'd want answers. I'd want revenge. I'd have so much grief, anguish, and hatred, and I'd want to direct it all at someone. Now I personally have a daughter, which would give me a really good reason not to fall off the deep end, but Gabriel doesn't have that. When Marie dies, he has essentially lost everything. So Gabriel takes all of his hate and his rage and he goes on a monster killing quest. He vows to bring the Lords of Shadow, who create the monsters that he assumes killed his wife, to justice, and he does so with the vain hope that he might bring his wife back to life. He braves hell and high water to do so, and he does do some "questionable things" while doing it.

Let's look at some examples:
First, the Black Knight. It's Claudia's guardian. Well, Gabriel goes to sleep one night, has a dream about killing Claudia, wakes up and Claudia is dead. The Black Knight, which up until this point has done nothing in Gabriel's presence but show good will to Gabriel and Claudia, flips out and tries to kill who he assumes killed Claudia. And at that point, Gabriel can't even tell himself "Hey, I didn't do it!" because he's probably sitting there thinking "SHIT, DID I DO IT?" So he fights for his life, likely driven by a mix of self-preservation and a desire to finish his mission, and kills something that has up until that moment been entirely benevolent towards him.

Second, Vincent Dorin. Whatever you think about his deeds, or the concept of "the greater good", Gabriel essentially took the one thing keeping an obviously crazy man alive and left him for dead. And for someone who expresses a vested belief in the concept of mercy and forgiveness (to Satan, no less) that's not a casual act. As the player, we sit there and say, "Yeah, he got what was coming to him" but if/when Vincent dies, Gabriel is at least in part responsible.

Third, Pan. This one is pretty obvious in the game. Gabriel is upset at killing Pan. He does not like doing this, but is forced by Pan to accept it as necessary. Pan sees himself as a sacrifice made so that Gabriel can reach the Lord of the Necromancers and defeat the Lords of Shadow. Pan even tells Gabriel "I've accepted my fate" and asks him "Can you accept yours?" and Gabriel replies "I am not worthy. I am not of pure heart." So right then, it's not a stretch that Gabriel just feels like a straight up murderer.

So after the world's most grueling journey and some tough decisions, he finally gets to the Lord of the Necromancers, no doubt filled with self-doubt only overridden by the desire to see his wife, his everything, again. He gets there and Zobek is like "Hey, you know me, the guy that helped you succeed? Yeah, I'm a bad guy and I killed your wife. Actually, you killed your wife. I made you kill your wife."

At this point, Gabriel is emotionally unstable and is hit with a megaton bomb "You killed your wife." Honestly, it doesn't really matter that Zobek made him do it. I imagine myself in that scenario, and ask myself "If I knew I had been the one who had killed my wife all those days/weeks/months ago, would it really matter if I knew I was mind controlled?" It's like a band-aid on a missing limb. Ok, yeah, Zobek made me do it, but my wife was alive, was forced to suffer through her own husband killing her. And me or Zobek, either way she's still dead. I can only imagine what that must be like. And that Claudia girl I met? She was fine and I came along and killed her too. And the creature that tried to bring her killer to justice? I killed him too. It was my body, my self, that killed them, and had I not been there they might still be alive. And that crazy priest, well he was bad, sure, but I killed him too with the "help" of the Lord of the Necromancers. And Pan? I killed him, he let me kill him, so that I could come here, learn that Zobek made me kill a bunch of people, and that the Lord of the Necromancers was helping me the whole time. All these people are dead in some way because of me. If I had never existed, they all might still be alive. That's heavy shit.

Then literally Satan comes down from the sky, and is like "I did this." Ok, well I can imagine that if Satan's standing right in front of me, no matter how bad I was, I'm still better than Satan, right? God will grant me mercy. God will grant me justice. So Satan gets fought, Gabriel finally gets his hands on the mask that he's been tearing everything apart for, as is sitting there thinking "I'm forgiven. God gave me this mask so I can bring Marie back."

AND THEN MARIE STAYS DEAD.

Gabriel doesn't even get to die and join her, and Marie tells him he was brought back to life to repent for his sins. Gabriel's probably thinking "Haven't I done enough, Lord? What was the point of all of this?" So he's feeling like a huge piece of shit, angry at God, and then a little vampire girl tells him "Hey, I need your help to stop the end of the world". Gabriel's probably thinking, "Ok, here's my chance. I either earn my redemption or die trying. Either way I get Marie back." Turns out, though, that he still has to kill one more person, throw away his humanity, so even after he's saved the world, he's an immortal monster.

I realize I've deviated a bit, but I think his remorse is incredibly understandable, which makes his Dracula make plenty of sense. If anything, the story tellers are at fault for trying to make Gabriel too much of a stoic badass between certain cutscenes.

Then Lords of Shadow 2 just takes a big, semi-solid, smelly, pea-green dump all over everything.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 03:08:46 PM by e105beta »

Offline VladCT

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Re: Teaching Lords of Shadow in a college course
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2017, 08:30:37 AM »
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Then Lords of Shadow 2 just takes a big, semi-solid, smelly, pea-green dump all over everything.
Y'know what, I'mma quote that in my sig, if you don't mind.
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Then Lords of Shadow 2 just takes a big, semi-solid, smelly, pea-green dump all over everything.

Offline Dracula9

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Re: Teaching Lords of Shadow in a college course
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2017, 04:54:34 PM »
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Quote
Then Lords of Shadow 2 just takes a big, semi-solid, smelly, pea-green dump all over everything.

I blame Pro Wrestler Satan.

Offline Flame

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Re: Teaching Lords of Shadow in a college course
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2017, 06:43:07 PM »
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I blame Pro Wrestler Satan.

NANOMACHINES SON, Satan was fine. His complete waste, was what wasn't fine.
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Offline Dracula9

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Re: Teaching Lords of Shadow in a college course
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2017, 06:58:12 PM »
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Naw bruh, Pro Wrestler Satan is a terrible redesign of a previously perfect design that serves no purpose other than to look cool for cool's sake.

Not like you fight the beefcake in his own body anyway, so I guess his bench-pressing was wasted.

Offline TatteredSeraph

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Re: Teaching Lords of Shadow in a college course
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2017, 11:08:40 AM »
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Naw bruh, Pro Wrestler Satan is a terrible redesign of a previously perfect design that serves no purpose other than to look cool for cool's sake.

Not like you fight the beefcake in his own body anyway, so I guess his bench-pressing was wasted.

It wasn't even cool though!  Just terrible, as you say.  More interesting would be to have him as he was in LoS1, perhaps in a long black robe, and then take on a draconic/shining serpent seraph form, with six wings.  Even the Leviathan was fug in its design.  There was just so much wasted potential... :(
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Re: Teaching Lords of Shadow in a college course
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2017, 04:35:04 PM »
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I get that Satan lost to Gabe before and has been apparently doing some serious time that the Hellsville Gymnasium and Hellth Club while preparing for a rematch, but did they HAVE TO GIVE HIM CHICKEN LEGS?!

It's a shame Konami doesn't really want all of this money of ours.

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Re: Teaching Lords of Shadow in a college course
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2017, 05:54:08 PM »
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Quote
I get that Satan lost to Gabe before and has been apparently doing some serious time that the Hellsville Gymnasium and Hellth Club while preparing for a rematch, but did they HAVE TO GIVE HIM CHICKEN LEGS?!

So Satan needed some more Cock in his design ;D
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Offline Dracula9

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Re: Teaching Lords of Shadow in a college course
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2017, 06:49:50 PM »
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So Satan needed some more Cock in his design ;D

Well, Nergal does say his father's thirst for Gabriel knows no limits.

Offline SecretWeapon

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Re: Teaching Lords of Shadow in a college course
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2017, 07:56:17 PM »
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Satan teached me to incorporate big black cock in my body....design. Satan is wise

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Teaching Lords of Shadow in a college course
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2017, 03:03:07 AM »
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Satan teached me to incorporate big black cock in my body....design. Satan is wise

"..... Be Satan"
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
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                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64        ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE     RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS
                                                                          v
                                                                          BE>*
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RE=Richter Ending

Offline e105beta

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Re: Teaching Lords of Shadow in a college course
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2017, 01:54:52 PM »
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Naw bruh, Pro Wrestler Satan is a terrible redesign of a previously perfect design that serves no purpose other than to look cool for cool's sake.

Not like you fight the beefcake in his own body anyway, so I guess his bench-pressing was wasted.

I played LoS after playing Dante's Inferno earlier that year, and the Satan design stood out to me how accurate it was to the Satan mythos. He wasn't some big burly dude with goat legs and massive horns; he was lithe and fair, and literally clothed in darkness. He looked like the greatest of angels albeit fallen from grace, rather than a satyr with a giant horse dong flailing around in my face.

LoS 2 Satan was just a step in the direction of Dante's Inferno Satan, and was, for some reason, missing his legs.

Offline Dracula9

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Re: Teaching Lords of Shadow in a college course
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2017, 12:06:31 AM »
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No, I actually like Dante's Satan (yes that includes the BFDD--it's so ridiculous it's enjoyable to think someone had to animate that)--there's just enough weird shit going on in the design and it's ridiculously over-the-top, but on closer inspection (especially in DI's ending cutscenes when it's in glorious FMV quality) there are some pretty clear elements of the design meant as "this part of the dude USED to be pretty and shit. It ain't anymore, but it used to be!" sort of things. Dante's Inferno game Satan feels like the warped-beauty aspect taken to an extreme, since once that end cutscene plays I found myself going "oh, he's MUCH less ugly than the game model suggests!" Plus I really liked the ripped/stump wings, thought those were a seriously nice touch.

It's over-the-top and crazy from the start and seems to be MEANT as an extreme end of the design concept. It didn't take a design that was already both really solid aesthetically and perfectly fit the narrative role and take it to an extreme for no reason other than "why not?"

Sure, the argument could be made that LOS2 Satan's design fits 2's narrative role, but let's be fair here (and by fair I mean it is time for a shitty overextended D9 metaphor):

Imagine taking the smoothest, most perfect shit you've ever taken. Hardly any exertion, was over quickly, and it looks like it fits in the bowl just right so as to go down without any trouble. You dare say it almost looks rather nice, for a lump of waste that came out of you. For the briefest of moments you become Randy Marsh, and contemplate taking photographs and framing and preserving your incredibly good-looking shit for all the world to see and know your pride. Imagine a shit like that.

Guess what though it's still just shit and the thing it fits into so nicely was made at its core to hold such pieces of shit and eventually be used to dispose of them.

Oh, and it streaked the hell out of the bowl interior and clogged the U-pipe so severely it almost flooded the bathroom. The smell lingered for months. Multiple bleach bottles still weren't enough to remove the stains left by the shitstreaks. You consider a new toilet altogether, but the manufacturers decide that urinals shaped like a pair of tits with little nipple tassels that spin around and flash and play catchy pop jingles if you hit all five mini-targets in the bowl before time runs out were a better business venture than standard household toilets.

You look back, through the slightly cracked bathroom door, at your forever-stained toilet and think of the shit that did it in.

You weep.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 12:12:39 AM by Dracula9 »

Offline e105beta

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Re: Teaching Lords of Shadow in a college course
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2017, 02:34:12 PM »
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I liked the torn wings. Other than that the design seemed pretty derivative to me. I agree with your take on LoS2 Satan, though, and I like the metaphor, haha.

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