Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [ID] Topic: SotN > any other series metroidvania  (Read 8099 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BLOOD MONKEY

  • rrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1253
  • Gender: Female
  • BEWARE, I LIVE
  • Awards May 2017 Sprite Contest Second Place 2015-02-Sprite Contest 1st Place
    • twitter
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (PS1/SS)
  • Likes:
SotN > any other series metroidvania
« on: November 10, 2017, 08:44:17 AM »
0
Why is SotN the most complex of the metroidvanias available? I understand the three for the GBA being dumbed down a little, processing power is lacked and you only have 4 buttons to work with. But the 3 DSVanias are dumbed down as well? They hold your hand most of the way through and none of their equipment systems are as complex as Symphony's. The map systems are based around square shapes and big open areas, as opposed to the more contrasting layout of Symphony's. All the other games just seem more generic and less complex than Symphony, and I can't find a legitimate reason for it other than poor design.
UPON THE COMPLETION OF ITS STATEMENT, THE BLOOD MONKEY LEAPS TOWARDS YOU, BARING TEETH. IT IS TOO LATE FOR YOU.

Offline X

  • Xenocide
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 9361
  • Gender: Male
  • Awards SuperOld Dungeonite: Members who have been around since the oldOLD days. The Unfazed: Never loses his/her calm, even in the most heated arguments. The Retro Gamer: Has a heated passion for the oldschool VG Titles.
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: SotN > any other series metroidvania
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2017, 09:36:27 AM »
0
Well, SotN was the first of its kind in Castlevania history which is why it is so special amongst all other Metroidvania's to come after it. I think the reson why the others weren't as successful or memorable is because it got stale and they were running out of ideas. Remember IGA was cranking out a game a year almost because Konami told him so. So it doesn't surprise me that the think tank would have been compromised due to lack of time in between developments. Also inferior hardware is to blame as well, yet I still find CotM very enjoyable to this day, even though it is far more dumbed-down then any other Metroidvania in the series.

Quote
Re: SotN > any other series metroidvania

The term 'Metroidvania' only applies to a Castlevania game that plays like Metroid. This does not include games outside of the CV series. Unfortunately many people use the term incorrectly when talking about other Metroid-styled games that have nothing to do with Castlevania.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 09:39:00 AM by X »
"Spirituality is God's gift to humanity...
Religion is Man's flawed interpretation of Spirituality given back to humanity..."

Offline theplottwist

  • Canon Literalist
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1848
  • プロットツイスト君
  • Awards 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place 2017-07-Sprite Contest 2nd PLace 2016-09-Sprite Contest First Place 2015 - Christmas Award First Place 2015 - Halloween Sprite Contest - Second Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania Adventure Rebirth (Wii)
  • Likes:
Re: SotN > any other series metroidvania
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2017, 10:13:39 AM »
+1
Why is SotN the most complex of the metroidvanias available? I understand the three for the GBA being dumbed down a little, processing power is lacked and you only have 4 buttons to work with. But the 3 DSVanias are dumbed down as well? They hold your hand most of the way through and none of their equipment systems are as complex as Symphony's.

For one simple reason: Balance.

SotN's "gimmick" is the enormous amount of weapons. Dawn's gimmick is the enormous amounts of Souls. Ecclesia's gimmick is the amount of Glyphs (and you're dead wrong on this one because it's very close to SotN once you switch the word "Glyph" for "weapon").

SotN is not the "most complex". It simply gives you a lot of shit (many of which are almost duplicates or have little use before being discarded for better stuff) and cares little for balance, which is why Alucard can be made into a god relatively early in the game. Many choices != Good choices.

You said that the others don't have "complex equipment systems like SotN", and damn, I disagree so much. Soma and Shanoa's equipment systems come off as much more well-thought-out than Alucard, where you could basically slap anything on him in combination with anything else pretty much most of the time and he was still a murder machine. If you try to do that with Soma you risk being at a quite annoying disadvantage against some enemies, while in Ecclesia you risk dying over and over until you learn how certain glyphs work. That's not even getting to the Doppelganger soul, that allowed for multiple equip configurations, or the system for raising the power of certain attack elements that Ecclesia had.

Alucard didn't have souls to collect, didn't have glyphs, didn't have dual-item crashes or a very vast array of reusable magic attacks (not counting the Duplicator). Hell, SotN didn't even allow you to use consumables without having to equip them first. As I see it, SotN is hardly superior to the Metroidvanias coming after it on the gameplay/challenge aspect.

EDIT: I noticed now I'm coming off as a bit of a douche.

I'm not saying SotN is a bad game. It really is not. What I'm saying is that it's difficulty being all over the place is a result of the not-so-complex equipment system it has. You said you think it has the most complex system, and I'm pointing out that, to me, it really is not so complex. Just because it has a lot of stuff to collect and customize, doesn't mean it's actually "more intelligent" than the systems coming after it. While on SotN you'll get by just fine equipping basically anything together with anything, if you don't get how to balance yourself/make up for your strengths and weaknesses on the later games, difficulty can actually bite off your ass.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 01:12:49 PM by theplottwist »
The mastermind behind the "Umbra of Sorrow" project. But not the only one.

Offline aensland

  • Vampire Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
  • Awards 2018-06 Music Concert 1st Place 2017-02-Music Contest 1st Place
    • Awards
  • Likes:
Re: SotN > any other series metroidvania
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2017, 01:20:55 PM »
0
Symphony of the Night is a magisterial game that has aged wonderful, but it's not perfect enough to disregard the rest of the series.


Why is SotN the most complex of the metroidvanias available?
Complex in what sense?
-CotM gameplay is more complex than SotN
-Aria's plot is more complex than SotN
-Ecclesia's stage design is more complex than SotN, even with the limited map sizes, but mostly because it has the Gylph gimmick

The map systems are based around square shapes and big open areas, as opposed to the more contrasting layout of Symphony's. All the other games just seem more generic and less complex than Symphony, and I can't find a legitimate reason for it other than poor design.
Harmony of Dissonance had a gorgeous level design, far from generic, check stuff like Cave of Skeletons, Castle Top Floor, the eerie alternate Clock Tower and the Sky Walkway, all of them have nice use of lightings, shadows and small details to compliment both sides of the castle.

The only DS game that I would call generic is Dawn of Sorrow, thanks to its cold and bland colour pallet, the only noteworthy area is the Lost Village, the rest of the game is pretty Zzz

...SotN cares little for balance, which is why Alucard can be made into a god relatively early in the game. ..
That is my only issue with SotN, holy water carries you pretty hard until you get the Shield Rod + Iron Shield combo, at that point you pretty much won the game.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 01:23:03 PM by aensland »

Offline crisis

  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 5805
  • Awards The Trollmeister: Knows just the right thing to say to tick you off, sometimes. The Great Collector: Has a seemingly obscene amount of Castlevania memorabilia.
    • Awards
  • Likes:
Re: SotN > any other series metroidvania
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2017, 03:59:45 PM »
+1
I describe Symphony as "lightning in a bottle." it was a perfect storm where they just threw everything into the pot. there are 2 things that make the game stand out: atmosphere and soundtrack

I feel if they had created a sequel 2 years after sotn was released, with all the same exact programmers and everything, then they would've produced a game that was truly superior.

Sometimes in life there is a window of opportunity to make special things happen, and when that window closes, it's almost impossible to recreate that magic. Therein lies the gift and the curse that is sotn

Offline BLOOD MONKEY

  • rrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1253
  • Gender: Female
  • BEWARE, I LIVE
  • Awards May 2017 Sprite Contest Second Place 2015-02-Sprite Contest 1st Place
    • twitter
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (PS1/SS)
  • Likes:
Re: SotN > any other series metroidvania
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2017, 04:31:31 PM »
0
@Plot on your point of balancing gear, I think that was more an issue with the number system than the equipment system. Check out SotN Hardtype, it aims to rectify and balance the damage system in favour of a truly difficult game.
UPON THE COMPLETION OF ITS STATEMENT, THE BLOOD MONKEY LEAPS TOWARDS YOU, BARING TEETH. IT IS TOO LATE FOR YOU.

Offline zangetsu468

  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3128
  • God bless the hustler, curse the first sleeper
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia (NDS)
  • Likes:
Re: SotN > any other series metroidvania
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2017, 05:57:22 PM »
0
Opinions > logic & everything else

Sotn is in a sense the most aesthetically and musically "ornate" in my opinion.
For its time it was elegant, refined, and it was so different to any previous games that it stood out even more so than it would have being released in the context of today. 

However, imo it's not the most complex in terms of play style. (Richter and Maria's play style are even more complex than Alucard) In one sense, I really love the game, in another, I know there are better Metroidvanias which also require more skill to defeat, have more challenging areas and bosses, more 'combos' and weapon/ magic combinations and the like. The only thing sotn had in that sense that other cv's didn't have was that you could "down+forward" attack with certain weapons.

To me, the prologue with Richter was one of the more dynamic parts of the game and I wonder whether the inclusion of 3 playable characters was ever initially an idea taken from the cancelled "Bloodletting" that would allow the player to swap between Alucard/ Richter/ Maria.

I also have to admit (and yes I'm one of those people) that the game feels more complete after having played the SS version. The additional Maria, ost tracks and the two castle areas makes it feel more complete.. Like it was missing just those tiny inclusions before.

Even so with the Castle, it is one of the better iterations but I don't believe it's the absolute best. My thoughts are kind of split here because although OOE is my favourite game and possibly my favourite overall design, I think Aria's castle takes it for me. If we're talking overall design it would be OOE (some of the most versatile and beautiful areas) or LoD. I'd have to say that POR's base castle is probably my least favourite although I like the game for other reasons.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline PFG9000

  • No, not the gun
  • Legendary Hunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 993
  • Gender: Male
  • Fan of all things Floyd
  • Awards The Retro Gamer: Has a heated passion for the oldschool VG Titles. SuperOld Dungeonite: Members who have been around since the oldOLD days.
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: SotN > any other series metroidvania
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2017, 09:01:27 PM »
0
SotN had better graphics than any of its followers, and it had a far better soundtrack than anything to follow (yeah, even Lament of Innocence and Curse of Darkness).  For some reason Michiru Yamane went all synth-heavy after SotN and the variety of musical styles and instrumentation just kinda went buh-bye, although her work continued to be amazing.  SotN was the first of its kind in the series (sidenote: at least since Simon's Quest.  Lots of fans at that point either hadn't played it or their minds had erased those traumatic memories out of self-preservation.) and all of its clones after that were handheld.  Also, SotN had a decent amount of gameplay depth, between the sheer volume of equipable weapons, some hiding secrets like the Muramasa and Shield Rod.  And there were the secret magic spells and familiars and wallmeat and new subweapons and Richter mode and Luck mode and Axearmor mode.  The game had secrets up the wazoo.

...oh, and that upside-down castle that blew the collective mind of gamers at the time.



For the record, I've always thought Aria of Sorrow might be the better game, since it's balanced so well, has reasonably deep gameplay, has a nice emotional twist, and pushes the boundaries of its platform more than probably any other Castleroid SotN-clone Metroidvania.

Offline zangetsu468

  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3128
  • God bless the hustler, curse the first sleeper
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia (NDS)
  • Likes:
Re: SotN > any other series metroidvania
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2017, 05:20:13 AM »
0
For the record, I've always thought Aria of Sorrow might be the better game, since it's balanced so well, has reasonably deep gameplay, has a nice emotional twist, and pushes the boundaries of its platform more than probably any other Castleroid SotN-clone Metroidvania.

This. AoS was the first CV game to include a gripping narrative which included suspense.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline AlexCalvo

  • The man.
  • Legendary Hunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 548
  • Gender: Male
  • No longer a jerk, but still wonderful.
  • Awards SuperOld Dungeonite: Members who have been around since the oldOLD days.
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: The DraculaX Chronicles (PSP)
  • Likes:
Re: SotN > any other series metroidvania
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2017, 06:59:21 PM »
0
This. AoS was the first CV game to include a gripping narrative which included suspense.

*Ahem*
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13104670/1/Castlevania-Birth-of-the-Dragon

Dracula was not always a monster. He was once a man named Mathias Cronqvist. A flawed, conflicted, genius of a man. How did the educated, aristocratic, crusader who piously served the church become a vampire, and eventually the Dark Lord himself, the opposing force to God? From a very young age terrors and tragedy shaped the man into the king of all evil. This is his story.

Offline Dracula9

  • That One Guy
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2417
  • Gender: Male
  • Blargh
  • Awards 2015-01-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-12-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-11-November FinalBoss Sprite Contest 2nd Place Winner A great musician and composer of various melodies both original and game-based. 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: SotN > any other series metroidvania
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2017, 07:38:40 PM »
0
*Ahem*


atmospheric suspense != narrative suspense


Trøllabundin eri eg, inn í hjartarót.

Offline BLOOD MONKEY

  • rrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1253
  • Gender: Female
  • BEWARE, I LIVE
  • Awards May 2017 Sprite Contest Second Place 2015-02-Sprite Contest 1st Place
    • twitter
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (PS1/SS)
  • Likes:
Re: SotN > any other series metroidvania
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2017, 08:38:02 PM »
0
UPON THE COMPLETION OF ITS STATEMENT, THE BLOOD MONKEY LEAPS TOWARDS YOU, BARING TEETH. IT IS TOO LATE FOR YOU.

Offline aensland

  • Vampire Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
  • Awards 2018-06 Music Concert 1st Place 2017-02-Music Contest 1st Place
    • Awards
  • Likes:
Re: SotN > any other series metroidvania
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2017, 10:21:40 PM »
0
For some reason Michiru Yamane went all synth-heavy after SotN and the variety of musical styles and instrumentation just kinda went buh-bye

That's not true

The only live instruments in Symphony of the Night were guitars and vocals, everything else was synths and midi programming and that has been the same up to Curse of Darkness.
Also Yamane never changed her "variety of musical styles", she still has that baroque/contemporary/prog rock/jazz influence.

Offline zangetsu468

  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3128
  • God bless the hustler, curse the first sleeper
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia (NDS)
  • Likes:
Re: SotN > any other series metroidvania
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2017, 12:40:20 AM »
0
atmospheric suspense != narrative suspense

Actually I agree, but debate LoD did it better.

I rephrase, and limit my previous statement to 2d CV's.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline AlexCalvo

  • The man.
  • Legendary Hunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 548
  • Gender: Male
  • No longer a jerk, but still wonderful.
  • Awards SuperOld Dungeonite: Members who have been around since the oldOLD days.
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: The DraculaX Chronicles (PSP)
  • Likes:
Re: SotN > any other series metroidvania
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2017, 04:44:39 AM »
0
atmospheric suspense != narrative suspense
The 64 games absolutely had both.  Arguably more so than any game in the franchise.  Not to argue that the gameplay is stellar, but in terms of storytelling no other games in the series even come close.  Maybe CoD.
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13104670/1/Castlevania-Birth-of-the-Dragon

Dracula was not always a monster. He was once a man named Mathias Cronqvist. A flawed, conflicted, genius of a man. How did the educated, aristocratic, crusader who piously served the church become a vampire, and eventually the Dark Lord himself, the opposing force to God? From a very young age terrors and tragedy shaped the man into the king of all evil. This is his story.

Tags: