Topic: Castlevania 64 and Legacy of Darkness are the greatest in series

[affinity]

that weren't played.  lol. darn, I watch walkthrough videos and read more about them, and it's amazing how these masterpieces really carve a more ideal Castlevania game than the commonly praised games in the series!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castlevania_(Nintendo_64)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castlevania:_Legacy_of_Darkness

much can be learned about them.   and they surpass all the single player 3D and 2D games too!!

they are way ahead of their time, and the playable characters, level design, day/night system, and more, 
it's really insane they didn't get as much praise as they should have.   

and it's such a waste on N64, it could've gotten greater following on playstation consoles, but yea the advantages of cartridge really did help make the world more faster loading and seamless in a sense.

yea its no surprise how these two games can be overlooked, even though Castlevania was a nintendo platform series since the start, the industry shifted in Playstation's favor since its debut.   shame when konami was motivated, they didnt care to port these games to at least PS2 (RE4 was ported from gamecube to PS2, to PS3 and PS4.)

well yea, it is interesting exploring those games more, they really are much more than they seem at a glance.
there's so much potential with that formula and style of Castlevania game design.

[zangetsu468]

that weren't played.  lol. darn, I watch walkthrough videos and read more about them, and it's amazing how these masterpieces really carve a more ideal Castlevania game than the commonly praised games in the series!!
....
well yea, it is interesting exploring those games more, they really are much more than they seem at a glance.
there's so much potential with that formula and style of Castlevania game design.

I wholeheartedly agree. What would be great is if they got an OOT 3ds style of "makeover" and were re-released for the Nintendo E-shop. The games were actually smoother played on CRT TV's particularly LOD with the expansion pack.. Trying to play them on a contemporary style TV just isn't as nice for whatever reason.

While the level of polish isn't necessarily where it has been with the 2d iterations, I do believe these are solid rivals of the 2d games, and contain the most 2d-stylized version of Castlevania gameplay (which broken down is platforming and attacking). Really the biggest thing is the learning curve, jumping can feel like it's a bit stiff, side stepping and locking on tried to emulate OOT but didn't pull it off quite as well. Having said this, enemies come from all angles and there are actual pitfalls and drops in the game which basically no other 3d Castlevania game has incorporated into their gameplay (putting aside a couple of rooms in LOI where the pitfalls don't kill Leon, and LOS where Gabriel can drown in areas like the quicksand). I still remember getting sweaty palms when playing the Clock Tower and having my mind blown when seeing LOD's Clock Tower for the first time. (The fact that Cornell actually walks out onto the hands of the Clock when finishing the level was a nice touch). Given all the ways which the character can die; pitfalls, being killed by enemies, being blown up by dynamite, falling into acid/water, falling/ disappearing blocks, being shot by gun turrets, I'd actually classify this more like an action/ platformer with a survival element. In later stages, it feels like the ground is falling away from the player or there are enough damaging obstacles trying to test the player's skill, who is constantly on the run (at least in Reinhardt, Carrie and Henry's Campaign you are on a timer if you want to reach the proper ending).

I think Konami of that context deserved props for pushing the envelope the way that they did, and I always felt they never expanded upon the base of these games, which is why Castlevania in the classic sense never evolved its identity as a 3d series. As much as I love Iga and did still like his 3d games, they were definitely the weaker re: gameplay and evolution, despite the fact that they were very entertaining and enjoyable games with strong narratives and OST's.

Here's to a left-in-the-past but not forgotten series. 

[Super Waffle]

Well aren't you Mr. Unpopular Opinion?

[Lumi Kløvstad]

I'm absolutely of a mind with Zangetsu here. That being said, there is a lot of stuff that DESPERATELY needed to be smoothed over that I think later 3D entries did much better: the camera and that %$&^%&*%&*^ NITRO PUZZLE. Starting with Curse of Darkness, the combat camera issue was effectively solved (but at the detriment of a lot else) and I think ultimately, Lords of Shadow 2 had the best 3D camera in the series. Also, some of the puzzles, of which the Nitro carrying is the most egregiously infuriating example for most of us (Castlevania's answer to the Water Temple, if ever there could be a comparison) were a little too vague as to solutions, and can be difficult to solve even with a play-by-play guide today.

But these are things a remake could actually stand a chance at solving, and the rest is surprisingly good stuff. I even like the desolate and ambient soundtrack, which I felt did more to build a world and place you in it than any other Castlevania soundtrack.

There's a lot to love, but there are just those occasional rough spots that really seriously truly need some major polish.

[zangetsu468]

Well aren't you Mr. Unpopular Opinion?

I find rhetorical questions lack rhetoric, in a cruel nipple-twist-of irony.

[aensland]

While I find most of your opinions terrible, I agree with this one.

The 64 games only had two sins, being released on a console with a terrible control and bike skeletons.

They had amazing OST, good story and interesting level designs, yes, even that tedious mandragora section, you barely find challenges like that in recent games.

[zangetsu468]

While I find most of your opinions terrible

I find this statement pretentious.

The 64 games only had two sins, being released on a console with a terrible control and bike skeletons.

It's not a console problem, Zelda had the same basic controls which suited the Z-lock on system and configuration of the N64 pad. Castlevania 64's controls just weren't as refined.

Also bike skeletons and gun turrets were the shit! You can't have Dracula's castle without them ;P

even that tedious mandragora section, you barely find challenges like that in recent games.

Twilight Princess had a section very similar to this, minus the puzzle solving.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

There are really only three dangerous areas in the Nitro Puzzle (if you're not a twitch jumper, that is).

NOT DANGEROUS: The spike room (timing is all you need - but if you're in a hurry, just run to the wall opposite the door you came in from and run left 'til you reach the blue door and exit quickly.
NOT DANGEROUS: The Prototype Machines room.  Yes, there are enemy Armors here, but they're near the end of the hall and are super-slow.  Just throw a few crosses or axes from a distance and you should take them out before they get anywhere near you.  If you're out of Jewels (why the fuck would you be?), then you have to just use the whip while staying away.  If you're playing as Carrie, your Energy Spheres will kill them.
NOT DANGEROUS: The Pub.  While on your way to the Nitro and at other points in the game, the Pub is full of Vampires, when you're carrying the Nitro the room becomes empty.  I guess Konami decided to give you a break. Get outta there, and down the stairs in the next hallway, which is also empty.

DANGEROUS AREA: The Catwalk and Gears room.  This area will pull your hair out.  It's easy for the camera to mess you up, and it's also easy for the game to mess with you by it 'thinking' you're caught between the gears.  I have had perfect runs ruined due to the game's engine thinking I'm stuck between the wall and a blue floor gear.  I've learned that the trick here is to walk patiently and, in a part where you could be grounded/crushed between gears or walls, stay just behind a gear's tooth, on the outermost part of the gear BUT NOT on the wall.  Do not touch the wall because the game might think that you're at a spot where your hitbox can be ground by the gear and It's Game Over, man.  Instead, just gently push against the tooth of whatever gear is in front of you while staying at the outermost part of the gear diameter.

That one area with the two gears is the most dangerous area in terms of how unfair the game could get.  That's the only area where you have to stay at just the middle of the gear, so that you clear one gear and the other.  There are two rooms after this but they're empty so they're not dangerous.

DANGEROUS AREA: The 'battle room' after the green gate, where you fight Actrise/Rosa. My memory fades about this one but I forget if there are enemies in this room, as sometimes there are two or three vampires, and other times the room is empty.  Regardless, best thing to do is, once you open the green gate, run down the stairs and for the door.  Do not stop.  Maybe it's safe?  Maybe you'll get hit by a flying bat those vamp-maidens throw.  Best not to risk it.

(POTENTIALLY) DANGEROUS AREA: The next room has ONE Motorcycle Skeleton.  He can be dodged since those motorcycles take forever to turn.  You can run towards its left and it'll try to 'turn into you but you will be too quick for it and it'll hit the wall (run toward the left pillar, then after he goes behind you, run around the pillar and for the door).

The Behemos Room is the next room.  Assuming you don't do something stupid (like Jumping), you've made it.

[zangetsu468]

(click to show/hide)

There are really only three dangerous areas in the Nitro Puzzle (if you're not a twitch jumper, that is).

NOT DANGEROUS: The spike room (timing is all you need - but if you're in a hurry, just run to the wall opposite the door you came in from and run left 'til you reach the blue door and exit quickly.
NOT DANGEROUS: The Prototype Machines room.  Yes, there are enemy Armors here, but they're near the end of the hall and are super-slow.  Just throw a few crosses or axes from a distance and you should take them out before they get anywhere near you.  If you're out of Jewels (why the fuck would you be?), then you have to just use the whip while staying away.  If you're playing as Carrie, your Energy Spheres will kill them.
NOT DANGEROUS: The Pub.  While on your way to the Nitro and at other points in the game, the Pub is full of Vampires, when you're carrying the Nitro the room becomes empty.  I guess Konami decided to give you a break. Get outta there, and down the stairs in the next hallway, which is also empty.

DANGEROUS AREA: The Catwalk and Gears room.  This area will pull your hair out.  It's easy for the camera to mess you up, and it's also easy for the game to mess with you by it 'thinking' you're caught between the gears.  I have had perfect runs ruined due to the game's engine thinking I'm stuck between the wall and a blue floor gear.  I've learned that the trick here is to walk patiently and, in a part where you could be grounded/crushed between gears or walls, stay just behind a gear's tooth, on the outermost part of the gear BUT NOT on the wall.  Do not touch the wall because the game might think that you're at a spot where your hitbox can be ground by the gear and It's Game Over, man.  Instead, just gently push against the tooth of whatever gear is in front of you while staying at the outermost part of the gear diameter.

That one area with the two gears is the most dangerous area in terms of how unfair the game could get.  That's the only area where you have to stay at just the middle of the gear, so that you clear one gear and the other.  There are two rooms after this but they're empty so they're not dangerous.

DANGEROUS AREA: The 'battle room' after the green gate, where you fight Actrise/Rosa. My memory fades about this one but I forget if there are enemies in this room, as sometimes there are two or three vampires, and other times the room is empty.  Regardless, best thing to do is, once you open the green gate, run down the stairs and for the door.  Do not stop.  Maybe it's safe?  Maybe you'll get hit by a flying bat those vamp-maidens throw.  Best not to risk it.

(POTENTIALLY) DANGEROUS AREA: The next room has ONE Motorcycle Skeleton.  He can be dodged since those motorcycles take forever to turn.  You can run towards its left and it'll try to 'turn into you but you will be too quick for it and it'll hit the wall (run toward the left pillar, then after he goes behind you, run around the pillar and for the door).

The Behemos Room is the next room.  Assuming you don't do something stupid (like Jumping), you've made it.

You know what's even more fun Jorge? Doing this on hard mode with the 5 x stacked bone pillars shooting at you

If you're Carrie you can actually shoot the bone pillars from all the way back where the room starts, you have to have cracking aim though. With Reinhardt? Yeah, there's basically no way out, you have to either use subweapons when close, or actually just run passed them and time it right. I always felt Reinhardt's game was the harder mode. Good times.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

The 5x bone pillars are in the Gears & Catwalk room, right?
I remember doing this on hard mode once, a long while ago.  Had to use many Axes from afar with good timing.  Also, you have to have really great timing with your camera control.  It's easier in LoD.

[piscesdreams]

Compared to games of late, the camera and controls are absolutely atrocious but I think they're still manageable enough to enjoy the games.  However, the N64 games got a lot of things right, mostly in the atmosphere and inclusion of actual vampires.  It was the first time CV really went dark and gritty (though some could argue SCIV did this first) and it felt good.  I would have really liked to play the original vision with whip swinging and Coller.  I know he became the gardener and the shotgun went to Henry in LoD as a pistol, but it would have still been a neat weapon combo that would make any Evil Dead fan happy.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

The atmosphere is really good, especially at the Annexed Villa.
**Lightning Strikes**

Gave me a real Resident Evil feeling there, but with WAY better controls (thank goodness Castlevania doesn't have Tank controls).
There was lots of ominous sky, thunder rumbling in the background, low-contrast washed out color schemes all over the place on outside places, areas in which it got 'dark' just because (the Cerberus Hounds fight does this).

You would feel a sense of dread as you would walk down long corridors, or if you were at the Cave, stuck on Freight Lifts.

[zangetsu468]

The atmosphere is really good, especially at the Annexed Villa.
**Lightning Strikes**

Gave me a real Resident Evil feeling there, but with WAY better controls (thank goodness Castlevania doesn't have Tank controls).
There was lots of ominous sky, thunder rumbling in the background, low-contrast washed out color schemes all over the place on outside places, areas in which it got 'dark' just because (the Cerberus Hounds fight does this).

You would feel a sense of dread as you would walk down long corridors, or if you were at the Cave, stuck on Freight Lifts.

There was never a creepier or eerier CV game imho. From that Lightning strike, to the music of the outerwall, to the villa's general unsettling feeling and those two dogs that would chase you around, to the statue crying bloody tears. The games started slowly becoming less creepy after LOD, but they still retained eeriness until AoS.

[affinity]

yea CV64 and CVLoD are really the two Castlevania games I'm interested in the most, aside from Castlevania II's open world style, and Harmony of Despair's timeless co-op and 2nd greatest selection of playable characters, only surpassed by Serio's Castlevania Fighter roster.

with CV64/LoD 3D level design, weather and gameplay, CVII's open world towns and Harmony of Despair/Serio's playable selection, and add some character creation in the mix, and they could make even greater masterpieces!!

and its amazing how CV64 and LoD even surpassed the IGAvanias in how even the extra playable characters got their own indepth version of the story, but I do appreciate IGA's efforts in adding more playable characters in the games, like in PoR, even those Stella and Loretta's story and gameplay was somewhat tacked on, it still make the game entirely better than without it.  Serio's Castlevania Fighter team gave them more sprites, animations ,actions, they could even walk, and still have their floating ability, except balanced. it's amazing how things can be improved, and if fans can do it, so can devs.

and CV64.LoD is so awesome providing great variety, a whipper, a magic user, and some hybrid, as well as some armor knight. well yes Castlevania 3 had variety too but it didn't fully dedicate the campaign to each character,  in CV64/LoD, each character can have the full journey to themselves and be solid in beating it all on their own.   it really is incredible that they were able to more fully realize their game than SOTN, and 3D is much more complex to do.   well yea it did take two games for CV64 to reach LOD tier epic, but where's another story driven Castlevania that made the game for 4 characters to play through?  on top of incredible level design, realtime day/night, and other complexities.  not to mention the mindblowing combat that favors function and naturalness above the combo gimmicks of other 3D games.

there's a lot of things there developers can learn from overall.

[KaZudra]

Why not just take these games, Redo the models and textures, add a free camera, and make alot of money on a 3DS release?

...oh yeah, forgot, Konami.