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Offline zangetsu468

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Also, Dracula cannot be aware of who Barlowe is. At the end of the game he is surprised to realize that Shanoa is not his benefactor, indicating he has no idea about who revived him. Whatever happened in that scene, must be some kind of "automatic response" unrelated to Dracula's actual awareness.

This is why I believe Barlowe wanted Dracula revived. Whether Dracula's remains influenced Barlowe or not can be argued. It can also be argued that Dracula would either find a worthy host body (potentially Barlowe) or the sequence of events occurs as per OOE.
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Offline theplottwist

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This is why I believe Barlowe wanted Dracula revived. Whether Dracula's remains influenced Barlowe or not can be argued. It can also be argued that Dracula would either find a worthy host body (potentially Barlowe) or the sequence of events occurs as per OOE.

Considering Barlowe's original description, I highly doubt he wanted to revive Dracula all along.

I mean, sure. After a certain point he wanted to revive Dracula. But I doubt Ecclesia was "founded with this goal" as many believe.
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Offline zangetsu468

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Considering Barlowe's original description, I highly doubt he wanted to revive Dracula all along.

I mean, sure. After a certain point he wanted to revive Dracula. But I doubt Ecclesia was "founded with this goal" as many believe.

Maybe not. However, original character descriptions don't always give away the punchline. Take Mathias' in LOI for example. It's the same thing as using "cinema verité" to conceal a plottwist (puns ahoy).
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 12:11:21 AM by zangetsu468 »
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Offline Nagumo

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I want to respond, but first I want you to clarify what do you mean by "Why didn't they just do that in the first place?". What is "that"?

Also, Dracula cannot be aware of who Barlowe is. At the end of the game he is surprised to realize that Shanoa is not his benefactor, indicating he has no idea about who revived him. Whatever happened in that scene, must be some kind of "automatic response" unrelated to Dracula's actual awareness.

I was referring to that scene where Dracula's power is leaking from the vessel and flowing into Barlowe, giving him enough power to break the seal.

I forgot about the part where Dracula doesn't know who revived him. That makes it even more strange, though. It seemed Dracula was mentally communicating with Barlowe. Or was that just part of Barlowe's insanity?

Offline zangetsu468

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I was referring to that scene where Dracula's power is leaking from the vessel and flowing into Barlowe, giving him enough power to break the seal.

Barlowe absorbs the energy and states "Yes my lord, I see. I will destroy the infernal seal with your blessing.. Truly providence that Dracula would honour me with his guidance".

I forgot about the part where Dracula doesn't know who revived him. That makes it even more strange, though. It seemed Dracula was mentally communicating with Barlowe. Or was that just part of Barlowe's insanity?

It seems that since Dracula doesn't know Barlowe, the only sure thing are that Dracula's remains were responsible for influencing Barlowe. The remains have their own effects and influence on even strong individuals. In HoD for example, if Lydie was sacrificed a proper resurrection of Dracula would occur, failing this Maxim could've been the host body, failing this Dracula Wraith manifested from the remains. (The remains in HoD held strong influence over Maxim and yet Dracula Wraith didn't even recognise the Belmonts ).

Perhaps because the remains were gathered together (like the body parts in CVII and HoD), there was a level of sentience and they were trying to escape, thereby releasing their energy into Barlowe, knowing he'd sacrifice himself.



Barlowe: Eccelsia's mission is to realise the singular wish of all mankind: The resurrection of our Lord, Count Dracula!
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Offline Nagumo

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Barlowe absorbs the energy and states "Yes my lord, I see. I will destroy the infernal seal with your blessing.. Truly providence that Dracula would honour me with his guidance".

Yes, so why doesn't this event occur before Shanoa and Barlowe fight? What was the point of needing Dominus to free Dracula if Barlowe managed to do it just fine without it?

Offline zangetsu468

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Yes, so why doesn't this event occur before Shanoa and Barlowe fight? What was the point of needing Dominus to free Dracula if Barlowe managed to do it just fine without it?
The answer is desperation. Allow me to elaborate though..
I've explained most of it in previous posts: According to Barlowe's plan, Shanoa was supposed to use Dominus to break the seal. If Shanoa breaks the seal, Barlowe could've become Dracula's host body, meaning that he can manifest in the physical world (like Dracula did when he used Isaac in COD). This didn't happen, meaning there's no host body, no sacrifice etc. Therefore Dracula's resurrection is incomplete, and he resurrects in Castlevania but beyond the gates of hell/ the underworld, meaning he's not yet completed his resurrection.

The second component to all this is the dark energy itself and what it is in that particular scene you mentioned before, where the energy comes into Barlowe  - I believe this is chaos. After Barlowe tells Shanoa that Ecclesia's purpose is Dracula's resurrection and Shanoa answers back, Barlowe says something to the effect that Dracula returns because of the "evil inside of people's hearts", then the dark energy comes to him emanating from Dracula's remains. Right when Barlowe says this is where the energy transfer occurs and I believe this is not accidental, it was part of the script. 

The exact logistics of how this scene works are open to interpretation.. My assumption is:
At this stage Barlowe absorbs the energy and talks to "Dracula" calling it his power and saying he will use this power to break the seal. However it doesn't seem he was communicating with Dracula at all, he assumed Dracula was giving him energy when the energy (chaos) emanating from the remains was simply transferred to him, as a final effort to break the seal. It seems like it was an act of desperation (from the remains/ their will) seeing that it wasn't what was initially planned. Barlowe simply believed this was an act of Dracula's will, because he believed in resurrecting Dracula.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 10:49:35 PM by zangetsu468 »
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Offline Nagumo

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2017, 04:29:54 AM »
0
Hmm, I don't really agree with the interpretation that Dracula revived in the underworld. This isn't directly supported by the story itself. If it were true, you would think this would have been stated explicitly in the dialogue. (Which in Castlevania's case is always heavy on exposition, so the stories tend to spell things out directly for the audience instead of leaving it open to interpretation).

Anyway, how about this one? Mathias' goal in LoI was to obtain a vampire's soul so he could become one himself and thus obtain eternal life, correct? Why couldn't he just have absorbed the soul of a minor vampire who is easy to kill? For example, why not take Joachim's soul? Mathias was in the same room when Leon defeated Joachim, so why didn't he do it?

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2017, 07:02:27 AM »
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Hmm, I don't really agree with the interpretation that Dracula revived in the underworld. This isn't directly supported by the story itself. If it were true, you would think this would have been stated explicitly in the dialogue. (Which in Castlevania's case is always heavy on exposition, so the stories tend to spell things out directly for the audience instead of leaving it open to interpretation).

Shanoa: "There are magic energies coursing through this room... If that statue is Cerberus, then this must be the gateway into Hell. I just need to figure out how to unseal it..."

It can't get more explicit.

I digress.. You're drifting away from your initial question.

What you believe re: the events of OOE doesn't alter Barlowe's motives. His aim was to resurrect Dracula, simple enough, which initially Shanoa was meant to do for him by using Dominus on the seal. The simplest reason being that (1) he didn't initially believe there was another way to break the seal aside from using Dominus and (2) Given the choice, he wouldn't use his own life. The Dominus method was the "correct method", while the method which was used in the end was not initially foreseen by Barlowe. But in the end he'd rather see Dracula resurrected because the he couldn't defeat Shanoa, so he had no choice but to use his own life.

I also feel the "Why didn't Barlowe just self destruct prior to the Shanoa fight?" is not a good one. He obviously didn't previously have the means to break the seal (aside from Dominus) which is why the entire Shanoa>Albus>Dominus escapade started with the game's prologue. By the end of the Shanoa fight, Barlowe is spent and seems weak, when -let's call it- "Chaos" enters his body, he remarks about being re-energised/ power restored and then proceeds to give his own life, he had no other options.

If you focus on the underworld/ hell component then you've lost sight of your initial question. The only thing this component being a factor could explain is whether Dracula's resurrection is incomplete. If one discounts this component then that uncertainty is no longer a factor.

FYI, you, myself and plottwist discussed this 2 years back http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php?topic=8243.15

Anyway, how about this one? Mathias' goal in LoI was to obtain a vampire's soul so he could become one himself and thus obtain eternal life, correct? Why couldn't he just have absorbed the soul of a minor vampire who is easy to kill? For example, why not take Joachim's soul? Mathias was in the same room when Leon defeated Joachim, so why didn't he do it?

To do with Mathias, are you referring to this: https://youtu.be/ue_vmHmcT9g at 10:20 timestamp? (If this is even Mathias inside the room, I'm not sure if it is why he appears translucent..)

However, there could be several reasons why (assuming at this point that Mathias is already in possession of the stone and it is him). Initially Mathias asked Leon to join him to curse and defy God, Mathias is tactician he knows to expect all outcomes and plan for the worst. Joachim was not enough power for Mathias.

Perhaps Mathias initially believed Leon may attempt to kill him upon finding out he was responsible for what happened to Sara. This is plausible imo, Mathias he probably wasn't aware whether the Ebony Stone would shatter, presuming Leon would defeat Walter. He then fled purely because of daybreak, leaving Leon to Death. If the Ebony stone wasn't destroyed them I'm sure Mathias would've taken no issue using Walter's power to fight Leon (taking the ebony stone for himself also).

The Joachim fight could've been a testing ground for Mathias to observe Leon. Why not just opt for the higher power in any case? Mathias doesn't seem like he'd do something half-assed and Walter is clearly the superior power.
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Offline theplottwist

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2017, 10:36:15 AM »
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Hmm, I don't really agree with the interpretation that Dracula revived in the underworld. This isn't directly supported by the story itself. If it were true, you would think this would have been stated explicitly in the dialogue. (Which in Castlevania's case is always heavy on exposition, so the stories tend to spell things out directly for the audience instead of leaving it open to interpretation).

lol I still want to answer this one but time is not allowing me. I'll give a TL;DR of what my answer is: Barlowe was still not fully corrupted to properly wield Dracula's power.


Quote
Anyway, how about this one? Mathias' goal in LoI was to obtain a vampire's soul so he could become one himself and thus obtain eternal life, correct? Why couldn't he just have absorbed the soul of a minor vampire who is easy to kill? For example, why not take Joachim's soul? Mathias was in the same room when Leon defeated Joachim, so why didn't he do it?

Because he wanted a powerful vampire soul. He clarifies that in the end of the game.

Plus, I'd not want to capture the soul of a minor vampire, and then risk having a more powerful one coming after me to take the stone away. Suppose Mathias captured Joachim, that would become a risk when Walter went after him and the stone. Rinaldo does say these stones are the treasures of the vampires.
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Offline Nagumo

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2017, 11:02:31 AM »
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Because he wanted a powerful vampire soul. He clarifies that in the end of the game.

In the Japanese version he just says he wanted a vampire soul. It seems the "powerful" part was slipped in by the localization.

Plus, I'd not want to capture the soul of a minor vampire, and then risk having a more powerful one coming after me to take the stone away. Suppose Mathias captured Joachim, that would become a risk when Walter went after him and the stone. Rinaldo does say these stones are the treasures of the vampires.

But Mathias could just discard the stone if he only thing he's interested in is becoming a vampire, couldn't he? IGA really should have included some sort of motivation for Mathias wanting to be the top dog among vampires. Then everything would make sense. 

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2017, 11:04:21 AM »
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But Mathias could just discard the stone if he only thing he's interested in is becoming a vampire, couldn't he? IGA really should have included some sort of motivation for Mathias wanting to be the top dog among vampires. Then everything would make sense.

Wait, doesn't the stone make you a vampire WHILE you have it? Because that's what I understood to be the case -- you have the powers but are cursed while you wear the stone.
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2017, 04:40:34 PM »
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Suppose Mathias planned to curse God and really live forever, opting for the higher power is planning for the future, which (if you consider Joachim's ending) also means that Mathias would've originally become Lord of Castle Bernhard. (This was discussed in a thread back about 4-5 years),

Consider it this as well, by CV III Dracula has become the "Demon King", meaning he's amassed power and somehow taken that throne and title. Joachim's power would not have been enough to do this in hindsight.

I don't believe Mathias planned that far ahead, I believe he was only thinking about his two threats: Leon and Walter.
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                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline X

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2017, 11:43:01 PM »
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I don't believe Mathias planned that far ahead, I believe he was only thinking about his two threats: Leon and Walter.

Leon wasn't a threat to Mathias until after he turned down the offer to join him. Mathias believed that his friendship with Leon would have been enough to convince him to take up sides and renounce God together, but to no avail as Leon flat-out refused. An action that Mathias had not anticipated.
"Spirituality is God's gift to humanity...
Religion is Man's flawed interpretation of Spirituality given back to humanity..."

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Re: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2017, 07:57:15 AM »
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Wait, doesn't the stone make you a vampire WHILE you have it? Because that's what I understood to be the case -- you have the powers but are cursed while you wear the stone.

I'm guessing not but who knows? IGA's stories can be frustratingly vague at times.

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