Topic: Concepts to explore in Metroidvania

[KaZudra]

After a crash course and daily dose of Castlevania and Metroid, There can still be plenty of life that can be breathed into the franchise.

No Need of RPG Level-up?
When the game is focused more on exploration and challenge, the Level up system has it's merits but the flaws lead directly into the downward slope of difficulty curve. How can the design compensate? Easy. Exploration and upgrades are a major dependent of the Metroidvania format, if you simply rely on these upgrades and most of all reward the player for exploring to find said upgrades, it's a little more delightful to render a Boss as a pushover by leaving no stone unturned as opposed to grinding for an advantage, In my opinion, that is.

Having all Subweapons, but a limit to each one?
What are you thinking? One might ask, but let's explore the possibility and how the design will compensate. This will obviously mean that sub-weapons in general will have a notable buff, for example; a Big eye approaches you, normally it takes 3 whip strikes, but only one knife (stabbing the eye logic). giving an obvious advantage and uses to the subweapons will discourage whip-only (Heart hording, guilty.) or spamming. This can also be done by limiting hearts more strictly, giving a heart-up upgrade much more meaning.

Techniques only experienced players will know.
I'm of course talking about the wall-jump and shinesparks from Metroid, in Zero mission the rewards for mastering these techniques is almost game-breaking, why can't Castlevania do such things? Wall jumping would be the easiest to implement.

Classic to Modern power-ups.
Classic jumping in Castlevania is a staple to it's design, and SoTN made that very apparent, Why not have both? you can simply start with the stiff jumping and acquire a power-up that enables the smooth jumping of the Metroidvania games, this can go for subweapons where the II and III tomes can increase the power and speed of subweapons.

Sub-weapons based puzzle like platforming?
Taking another page from Metroid, the most obvious element in Metroid is the breakable by context tiles based on one's weaponry, Simon's Quest had this for Holy water but lacked a way to identify said blocks such as Metroid's Power bomb, X-Ray, or other tile identifier, this can add plenty of variety in the platforming as you no longer rely on simply getting past a room, you now have to think of something is destructible.... which is prominent in Classicvania (for food and bonuses), but as a means to progress can open up plenty of Metroid-like or even original exploration possibilities.

Dracula? Why is it you everytime!?
Given the lore-wise, the Castle is indeed sentient, why are you limited to fighting Dracula every time? sure there are interesting and cool ways to fight him almost everytime, but to explore a possibility that you fight someone else simply harnessing the Castle's power or even the Dominious (wink) can be plenty to explore, given how great AoS is, I'm surprised more Akumajou Dracula on Vacation this time wasn't more often...

Contrass between real Vlad Trepes,
In Romania he's a Hero, in Castlevania he's basically 2nd to the Devil, why not have a decent contrass between them, maybe a Castlevania 2-like game where the people see him as a saint and you see him as a devil? (wink)

Putting a twist on the Canon Mythos every once in awhile.
Here's the big one, Maybe the Vampire Killer is actually Evil? Maybe Dracula doesn't even exist and it's all the Castle? Maybe Dracula is a good guy in this one but you're just working for the bad guy this time? Maybe you have to work with Death for once or even Dracula on an occasion? Maybe Maria Deserves her own game, Maria's Bizzare Adventure?
Some maybe be bottom of the barrel Game Theory or Fan-fiction, but the fact resides, If the story deviates a little but still feels right on it's own circumstances, it can definitely work.


Oh and remember, Concepts are great, but execution is key. Mirror of Fate is a standing example of great concepts but bad execution.

You guys know what to do by this point, discussion and sharing ideas is what we do here.

[PFG9000]

Sub-weapons based puzzle like platforming?
Taking another page from Metroid, the most obvious element in Metroid is the breakable by context tiles based on one's weaponry, Simon's Quest had this for Holy water but lacked a way to identify said blocks such as Metroid's Power bomb, X-Ray, or other tile identifier, this can add plenty of variety in the platforming as you no longer rely on simply getting past a room, you now have to think of something is destructible.... which is prominent in Classicvania (for food and bonuses), but as a means to progress can open up plenty of Metroid-like or even original exploration possibilities.

I think Rondo of Blood has a room with this.  There are tiles with subweapon icons on them toward the end of the Clocktower level, just before Shaft's Ghost (might have been a different level, it's been awhile...).  If I recall correctly, you can break the holy cross tiles only with the holy cross, etc.  And I agree, this is something that needs to be explored further.

I like your suggestions.  I've always wanted to see a whip-swing upgrade in a Metroidvania.  You'd think it would be a natural progression.  You come to a pit you can't cross, but there are rings placed in the air spanning the length of the pit.  Later when you get the whip-swing upgrade, you can come back and use it to continue the game from that pit.  Maybe it was never implemented because it would require numerous additional sprite frames, and that's too cost-prohibitive for a small team.

[zangetsu468]

Actual "Pitfalls" in a Metroidvania game, even if it's only on the hardest difficulty.

Remember LOD days where platforming was harder on harder difficulties ie disappearing platforms and the like moved faster? Good times were had... Although OOE did also incorporate some of this too on the harder setting.

[Sumez]

"Use wepaon X to break block Y" barriers is really the last refuge of Metroidvania design.

It's a classic pitfall, when designing this type of open ended game, to make the skills that open new areas almost literally function as just "keys". While this kind of design IS almost unavoidable, I think most people would agree that it feels better when progression is more dynamic. The whip upgrade is a great example, as it's a skill that would make your character more mobile altogether, AND it would allow him to reach more places. The double jump and any late-game transformation allowing you to practically fly anywhere, are classic implementations that you almost always see in any games of the genre.

A terrible example of metroidvania design is Circle of the Moon (stay with me here!) where most of the upgrades that you find are practically useless except from that ONE place on the map where you can use it to open a whole new area. It feels methodical and static, rather than an open ended experience with a gradually expanding map.
Now, in COTM it's not bad, because it's not really much of a metroidvania, rather than a classicvania disguised as one (and I absolutely love the game)

Going back to Super Metroid where the idea of more destructible terrain comes from. This game is a masterpiece, one of my favourite games ever. But it does have a COMPLETELY different approach to the genre that any of the Metroidvania CV games. While there are blocks that can only be destroyed using certain skills, they are also located in areas where it usually makes sense, rather than being used for an obscure puzzle. For example you most likely won't even notice the ones that require you to shine spark through them until you actually execute that shinespark on a level far below it. That said, Super Metroid DOES get away with a lot of on-the-paper "bad" design, as the obscure, hidden paths and impossible-to-find secrets is what makes up the entire game. There are so many things in this game that are not even hinted at, that you might only come across by chance, and it works because these things are all over the place, and what you end up finding might differ completely from one playthrough to the next. It amplifies the mysterious and dynamic nature of the game, and is a design that's almost impossible to properly replicate even by a very talented and experienced dev team. I love the game, but I don't want CV metroidvanias to take too many cues from it.
Though I wouldn't mind a lot more cool secrets scattered throughout the games.

[zangetsu468]

A terrible example of metroidvania design is Circle of the Moon (stay with me here!) where most of the upgrades that you find are practically useless except from that ONE place on the map where you can use it to open a whole new area. It feels methodical and static, rather than an open ended experience with a gradually expanding map.
Now, in COTM it's not bad, because it's not really much of a metroidvania, rather than a classicvania disguised as one (and I absolutely love the game)

I agree, COTM felt more like a continuous version of a classic CV (without stages) rather than an exploration based game.

[Belmont Stakes]

Just a quick question. Did Metroid Prime have fall damage from greater heights? I seem to remember that. That is the one thing that I have a problem with as far as them Exploidvania games go. I believe it is possible to have the classic platforming with death pits and boobie traps of the first NES game with exploration. Kid Icarus tried to be a level platformer for the first three areas of levels 1,2 and 3 with exploration and multiple paths that ultimately lead to the boss of the level. Zelda II and Battle of Olympus did something akin to platforming with exploration although none of these games have detailed maps of say individual dungeons like Metroid did. I think the SNES version of Prince of Persia did something like that too. If you could mesh these three games together with purposeful weapons and upgrades as you stated, that would be a Castlevania I would invest in.

[Claimh Solais]

No Need of RPG Level-up?
When the game is focused more on exploration and challenge, the Level up system has it's merits but the flaws lead directly into the downward slope of difficulty curve. How can the design compensate? Easy. Exploration and upgrades are a major dependent of the Metroidvania format, if you simply rely on these upgrades and most of all reward the player for exploring to find said upgrades, it's a little more delightful to render a Boss as a pushover by leaving no stone unturned as opposed to grinding for an advantage, In my opinion, that is.

I'm completely against this for one reason: it makes fighting enemies pointless. I'm sure most of us here when playing Lament of Innocence, after clearing out a room for the first (mandatory) time, proceeded to simply just run past enemies every other time we went through. Killing enemies in LoI seemed tedious and mostly there to just pad out your own gameplay length because killing enemies did nothing.

So what would be the point of killing enemies in a Metroidvania with no level-up system? We'd need a way to balance this so that it wouldn't be so boring.

• Do the enemies not respawn? That would make exploration boring simply running through empty rooms.
• Do we switch to a recovery item system similar to Metroid, where rather than having healing items, the enemies drop health instead? I can dig it, but then it seems we're cutting it a bit too close to Metroid.
• Less and weaker enemies to compensate? I wouldn't be behind that because then they'd pose no threat (like in most of SotN)

How about a level-up system, but one akin to FromSoft's Souls games? Killing enemies accumulates EXP, and you spend them at a save point so level up your stats ever so slightly, and each stat up counts as a Level Up. It'd give a point to actually killing enemies, but the game would still be difficult in comparison. We can even take this a step farther and have you drop your EXP if you're killed.

Classic to Modern power-ups.
Classic jumping in Castlevania is a staple to it's design, and SoTN made that very apparent, Why not have both? you can simply start with the stiff jumping and acquire a power-up that enables the smooth jumping of the Metroidvania games, this can go for subweapons where the II and III tomes can increase the power and speed of subweapons.

Nope. Definitely not. In other areas, this could work (like the aforementioned double/triple-shots) but having actually smooth jumping in a platform game be an upgrade would be bad design. It's even worse if people get used to the stiff-jumping and are suddenly switched the the smooth-jumping and it throws them off completely. One or the other, or even an option. Not both at once.

Other areas of the game where this could work would be:
-Unlocking the ability to extend your whip attack range a la Rondo of Blood (pressing forward twice after attacking)
-Unlocking the ability for an extended slide a la SotN Richter (and have it used for platforming or timed challenges)
-Now, this one might be an unpopular opinion... but an expansion on the Innocent Devil system from CoD. Great concept, bad execution (just like the aforementioned MoF). Have it start off limited like in CoD, but steadily give more options as the game goes on. It's much better than SotN's familiar system which is just a sprite following you and maybe doing something once in a while.

Your other ideas, though, could work just fine. I don't really have much to say on them.

Actual "Pitfalls" in a Metroidvania game, even if it's only on the hardest difficulty.

Remember LOD days where platforming was harder on harder difficulties ie disappearing platforms and the like moved faster? Good times were had... Although OOE did also incorporate some of this too on the harder setting.

Please, no. Pitfalls don't really have a place in games like these. While games like Shantae did have them, they were reserved for outside areas that were purely flat areas, and were never used in dungeons and other areas. If we're talking outside areas, alright, I can get behind that, as long as there's an indicator letting you know "hey, you're gonna die if you fall down here" like Shantae has (because it'd be cheap otherwise).

Also, instant death itself is cheap in these games. Have it do a good chunk of damage and send you back to the beginning of the screen or something. Instant death doesn't belong in a game like this.

Faster moving platforms on higher difficulties would be great, though. Harmony of Despair did this and I loved it, to the point where playing on normal felt so slow and boring in comparison. I'd love that.

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If there's one thing I personally want in a Metroidvania, it's either a Continue option or the game just taking you to the last save point immediately when you die. I'm a bit spoiled by modern games but sitting through a game over screen and then being sent back to the main menu only to load my save data up and then be at my last save point kinda feels extremely tedious. Simply sending you back to the last save point (or even the point when you entered the current area, if we're generous) would dramatically shorten wait time and easily increase the pacing of the game.

[zangetsu468]

I'm completely against this for one reason: it makes fighting enemies pointless. I'm sure most of us here when playing Lament of Innocence, after clearing out a room for the first (mandatory) time, proceeded to simply just run past enemies every other time we went through. Killing enemies in LoI seemed tedious and mostly there to just pad out your own gameplay length because killing enemies did nothing.

I think the later Metroidvania's did the right thing. Include an option where you can't level up, but don't have it as the default option, otherwise you may as well try to speedrun the game every time because kills have no purpose other than item collection or relic collection like in LOI.(which wasn't necessary to complete the game)

[chainsawmidget]

Just to throw an idea out there, what if when you leveled up, you only got to choose ONE stat to increase.

You get a level up, you get to choose if you want to hit harder, have more hit points, have more magic, etc. 

it might also give you the chance to customize your character more.  Are you the type that specializes in melee damage, magic, or just really really durable? 

[Claimh Solais]

Just to throw an idea out there, what if when you leveled up, you only got to choose ONE stat to increase.

You get a level up, you get to choose if you want to hit harder, have more hit points, have more magic, etc. 

it might also give you the chance to customize your character more.  Are you the type that specializes in melee damage, magic, or just really really durable?

This is what the Souls games do with leveling, so that's what I meant when I said a Souls-esque leveling system.

[zangetsu468]

Just to throw an idea out there, what if when you leveled up, you only got to choose ONE stat to increase?

Then I'd be playing Zelda II or Guardian Heroes.

The problem is that this isn't what comprises the essence of the Metroidvania genre fans have been used to. Another option is just a hindrance to game pacing when you're whipping your way through (no pun intended) 2d levels and so forth. I personally don't want to sit there choosing which stat goes up. Either give me the level up or don't give me the level up; normal mode or get capped.

[X]

Just a quick question. Did Metroid Prime have fall damage from greater heights?

No, they didn't. I can still remember falling from a great height and landing hard, but my energy meter was still full.

I think utilizing the Metroid system of collecting items to up your character would be a good step for a Metroidvania. You won't get too strong and the game will still give you a bit of a challenge without any real compromise. Simon's Quest kinda did this but not to the full extent it could have done. And I never did really use the leveling up in that game either. I just got the items that made me stronger and forged on ahead.

[zangetsu468]

Metroid Prime didn't but at least it incorporated Samus being stunned if she fell from great heights.

Castlevania 64/ LOD had a fair system of hp deduction based on how high the character fell from. You could even die, or lose so much so as to die.

[chainsawmidget]

What if we were to steal a page from Castlevania 3 to merge it with the Metroidvania stuff?  Let's say instead of getting the Double-jump boots, the Morph ball, the thing that let's you breath under water, etc etc you instead rescued other vampire hunters that each had a unique skill. 

For exstance, you're playing through a level but there's  pathway you can't get to because your character can't jump that high.  A little while later, you fight the Cyclops boss monster and rescue a character that double jumps.  You go to the nearest save point (which is the only place you can switch characters,) change into Jump-Guy and go forth into your new area. 

That stops any one character from being overpowered and sets things up so story-wise there isn't just ONE person out to get Dracula alone. 

[coinilius]

Konami used an idea like that you mentioned chainsawmidget in TMNT 3:Radical Rescue for the Game Boy - it's a Metroidvania where you start as one of the Turtles and need rescue the others who each have a different ability to help progress through the game.