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Offline Mooning Freddy

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The Legacy of General Lee
« on: August 26, 2017, 03:35:49 AM »
0
The removal of the statue of Robert E. Lee has sparked conflicting emotions in people.

I remember several years ago, I had a debate here about the civil war. The war was complex and tragic and some people here tried to explain how the war wasn't all black-and-white (no pun intended). But the interesting detail here was that someone defended general Lee as a patriot who decided to fight for his state despite his hatred of slavery. Apparently, this view of Lee is quite popular, presenting him as a righteous man, who, perhaps made the wrong choices. But is that view of Lee historically correct?

Quote
The myth of Lee goes something like this: He was a brilliant strategist and devoted Christian man who abhorred slavery and labored tirelessly after the war to bring the country back together.


How much of this is true? This article, that my friend sent me, argues that the the view, that is apparently quite common, of Robert Lee as a noble man is historically untrue and is a result of Southern propaganda.

Quote
In the Richmond Times Dispatch, R. David Cox wrote that “For white supremacist protesters to invoke his name violates Lee’s most fundamental convictions.” In the conservative publication Townhall,  Jack Kerwick concluded that Lee was “among the finest human beings that has ever walked the Earth.” John Daniel Davidson, in an essay for The Federalist, opposed the removal of the Lee statute in part on the grounds that Lee “arguably did more than anyone to unite the country after the war and bind up its wounds.” Praise for Lee of this sort has flowed forth from past historians and presidents alike.
This is too divorced from Lee’s actual life to even be classed as fan fiction; it is simply historical illiteracy.
White supremacy does not “violate” Lee’s “most fundamental convictions.” White supremacy was one of Lee’s most fundamental convictions.

After reading the article, I had no choice but to scratch my head. For some reason, a historical narrative was forged, by which many people today see Lee as an abolitionist. But apparently, there is plenty of evidence that nothing could be more far from the truth. By this article, not only was Lee a staunch supporter of slavery, he was a cruel slave-owner, and extreme racist who treated blacks as sub-human, believed that the black man does not deserve to be free, murdered Union black soldier prisoners during the war, and believed that slavery is a cause supported by God.
If indeed that is the case, it makes you wonder how many details in history today have been "revised" by people who tried to wash away the shame of fighting for the wrong side? Anyway, this is an interesting read:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 03:38:13 AM by Mooning Freddy »
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Offline Dracula9

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Re: The Legacy of General Lee
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2017, 07:09:03 AM »
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It depends largely on the source and how that source defines his qualities.

Some (wrongly) declare he hated the practice, and some (also wrongly) declare him the Big Bad of all racism in the South ever.

Both are half-wrong. Though the notion that there's a shitload of Southern propaganda painting him as a hero and bringing him up on a pedestal is completely correct. There's a lot of bullshit to sift through about this guy, which is why you'll see I refer to his personal letters and writings more than those of the press at the time.

If there's one thing from the propaganda that's somewhat accurate, it's the "fought for his state despite [misgivings]" thing. Lee was actually against the secession, very vocally so, but he was democratically outvoted by his people. After that, he went into a mindset of "I don't like their choice, I don't agree with it, but my people have spoken so I'll fight for what they've chosen."

Which is commendable as far as sacrificing personal pride/stakes for the greater perceived will/good of one's people goes...but there is a line between valuing the votes of many over the dissent of one and going all with horrible things. While the mindset the guy had over this particular thing was admirable, the actual context just shows how misguided his moral fiber was--would seem he'd rather let a thing he knew to be terrible and would cause huge problems occur than be a dissident and stand against it. This was a bit of a running theme with Lee's moral compass.

From his letters (which I can track down and cite if necessary), it was not a case of "I hate slavery" OR "slavery's good because fuck these people." His writings tell of a mindset wherein he considered it a "good thing" for the black populace.

He did indeed view them as subhuman, but not necessarily in a malicious light. The same letters belay a stance where he believed them to be "unfinished" and in need of tough lessons and hardship to progress the race forward, albeit this sentence is paraphrasing the hell out of it. He believed this "hard lesson" to be the practice of slavery, and believed it to be greenlit by the man upstairs--ergo, the letter says in similar wording that "yeah, slavery's got some pretty deplorable shit happening to these people, but God's basically allowing it to happen so it must be part of his Plan for these people and as a godly man it is my duty to carry out this practice even though I'm fully acknowledging there's some inhuman cruelty going on within it."

Now despite being a Southerner, I'm by no means a Lee apologist or rationalist. I just prefer for facts to be reasonably straight and/or, more importantly, people throwing around accusations throw them around properly and fairly. Lee was by all means a racist, but by his own writings he seemed to be more of a "oh these poor savages, I must help advance them as is my place as the Holy White Man™ in the service of God" kind of racist than the "blacks aren't people, fuck them, they deserve violence and pain and death and hatred, fuck all of them, they can all die for all I care" kind.

Neither's good, but I would argue that one (the latter) is considerably more dangerous than the other, since the former at least MARGINALLY comes from a place of thinking one's being helpful. Unabashed hatred and misguided zeal are both dangerous and problematic, but misguided zeal has a bit more chance to be dissuaded and talked down than blind hate.

Now I'm completely ignoring all the other facets of the guy's character--whole bunch of sources, some again by his own pen, that illustrate a complex individual who was neither wholly good nor wholly evil (as is the norm with hated historical figures). We've got letters to his wife talking about how doing good is what makes life valuable and his own measurements in that department filled him with despair, which corroborates the aforementioned mindset he seemed to be in, and other such things. None of it justifies what he did, but I'm not a big purveyor of tunnel-focusing on a singular aspect of a person when debating their quality of character, no matter how horrible that singular aspect is or was.

But the whole statue situation's pretty much a simple thing for me--I fully understand and endorse wanting to remove honorable trophy-type representations of people who performed or oversaw horrible acts of inhumanity. I really do. I'm from the South, and every Southerner has to make peace with that war sooner or later in some fashion, and I'm on the side that wants to learn from the mistakes and horrors rather than take the easy route and just repeat them.

But at the same time, I'm very much against what can eventually amount to historical censorship--remove all the remnants and reminders of the horrible things we've done in the past, and what's left to learn from and teach us not to repeat? Take the thing down from its pedestal, that's one thing, I'm agreeable to that. But destroying it? That just sweeps a nugget of history under the rug because it's unpleasant. And I'm not okay with that.

Plus, there's a GRAND irony in the fact that Lee openly stated he didn't want any statues of himself made when the war was over, out of a worry that it would cause the wounds of that war to never close and keep reopening and keep people unable to move on from the mindsets that led to all the atrocities--lo and behold, the old bugger was spot-on. Who woulda thunk it?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 07:15:52 AM by Dracula9 »

Offline Mooning Freddy

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Re: The Legacy of General Lee
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2017, 09:16:09 AM »
0
Interestingly, in my debate with my friend I discussed this historical development.The legacy of the Confederacy was somewhat normalized overtime, to the point people would argue that confederate symbols have nothing to do with racism; this normalization is quite evident in America: from The Dukes of Hazzard to Pantera, The confederate war flag was transformed into a symbol of Southern pride despite its controversial history.
But here's the detail that struck me from what my friend said: there was a historical correlation between the construction of Confederate monuments, the years when the KKK was most active, and the Jim Crow laws.
Looking back, it seems like we are trying to separate the two: the religious arguments for slavery, and racism or "scientific racism".
It seems the two prospered together. Slavery was always un-Christian; But since the Roman era, it was normalized into Christianity, especially in the new world. It is possible that the Christian justification for slavery was based on an idea that Africans were not Christians, and slavery could be a process that would eventually turn them Christian; but with any sort of explanation given, it was an incredible hypocrisy, and ironically the hypocrisy of Christian arguments for slavery were somehow transformed overtime into a distorted idea that supporters of slavery were somehow against slavery, only because they viewed slavery as a "necessary evil"

And here's what I can say about this... From a philosophical point of view, this was not unusual. An evolution from authoritarian societies into free societies came with a lot of hypocrisy. Liberal traditions still carried xenophobia and sexism with them, among other social ills. And without equality before the law there could be no true freedom. I suppose Aristotle is to blame. But racism was always there. And racism was worse than hatred, I tell you this, because hatred is widely understood as foolish, emotional, irrational, while racism is presented as rational. The KKK are seen as hateful. They are not; The KKK never "hated" black people, if you study their history. they merely saw them as animals, to be harassed, raped or killed at will, for their own amusement. This behavior was rational to them. And what is rational is normalized.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 09:21:14 AM by Mooning Freddy »
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Offline Jorge D. Fuentes

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Re: The Legacy of General Lee
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2017, 09:23:52 AM »
+3
My opinion:

Take down the statues.
Then, place them in a museum where the proper context of the statues can be studied and learned.

That way, they are not standing up as the propaganda devices that they once were (some statues were erected waaaay after the Civil War, in the Jim Crow era, in the 50's or so, before the Civil Rights Act), but rather can be appreciated in a proper context.
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Offline Dracula9

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Re: The Legacy of General Lee
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2017, 09:30:05 AM »
0
My opinion:

Take down the statues.
Then, place them in a museum where the proper context of the statues can be studied and learned.

That way, they are not standing up as the propaganda devices that they once were (some statues were erected waaaay after the Civil War, in the Jim Crow era, in the 50's or so, before the Civil Rights Act), but rather can be appreciated in a proper context.

This. So much this.

Quote from: Mooning Freddy
And racism was worse than hatred, I tell you this, because hatred is widely understood as foolish, emotional, irrational, while racism is presented as rational. The KKK are seen as hateful. They are not; The KKK never "hated" black people, if you study their history. they merely saw them as animals, to be harassed, raped or killed at will, for their own amusement. This behavior was rational to them. And what is rational is normalized.

Well, of course. I use the word "hate" and its like as the generality--obviously we wouldn't say a big game hunter or cattle farmer's views towards their query/prey are "hateful" in nature, but the ballgame becomes different when you introduce the human element into the mindset. "Hate" as I used in-context is merely a catch-all to represent the general "deplorable acts of cruelty and violence upon fellow humans" situations which would take all day to list in full detail.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 09:33:42 AM by Dracula9 »

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Re: The Legacy of General Lee
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2017, 10:10:57 AM »
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Quote
My opinion:

Take down the statues.
Then, place them in a museum where the proper context of the statues can be studied and learned.

That way, they are not standing up as the propaganda devices that they once were (some statues were erected waaaay after the Civil War, in the Jim Crow era, in the 50's or so, before the Civil Rights Act), but rather can be appreciated in a proper context.

I agree with this option as well.

As for racism? It is derived from hate which comes from fear. Fear of another race because they are so different (visually, religiously, etc) then others. This fearful mindset is derived from a lack of knowledge. When there's no knowledge about something (or someone) our egos will step in. Knowledge defeats fear. The more you know someone or someones who are different, the less inclined you are to fear or hate them. I personally see absolutely no acceptance or tolerance for things like racism. It was, is, and forever will be an unacceptable practice. One of the many lessons that Jesus taught that the Romans threw out the window was that ALL peoples' are equal under the eyes of god. No more, no less. A simple lesson like so many others they did not care for.
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Offline Ratty

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Re: The Legacy of General Lee
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2017, 01:03:47 PM »
+2
Oh boy, here we go.

For a bit of background- I live in the American south (a border state during the war) I can see a confederate flag flying from some guy's garage about a mile from my house, and another one flying in a yard not a mile from that. I live within easy driving distance of a civil war battlefield. And I can tell you that the war was UNEQUIVOCALLY about slavery, despite the almost invariable protestations of my southern countrymen.

The article you've got is accurate, but to go beyond just Lee himself to what he fought for...

People who try to separate the confederate cause from slavery are at best misinformed and at worst willfully spreading misinformation. You cannot separate the Confederacy from slavery, the two were inextricably linked culturally and economically. Slaves and land to work them were the biggest source of wealth in the Antebellum South, and for a good while the fastest road to wealth to. The South controlled "King Cotton" (like today's "Big Oil" etc.) due to slavery and believed Britain or another foreign power would be forced to intervene on their behalf to secure it. Both Britain and France came close to doing so once or twice.

Southern apologists will be quick to point out that "most southern soldiers were poor and didn't own slaves" but neglect to mention how the common soldiers still had a vested interest in continuing slavery because:

1. The existence of slaves put them in a higher caste/social status. Even if poor whites had nothing, they were FREE and white therefore superior. When General Lee first took power he had defensive works built around the Confederate Capital of Richmond, and he was roundly lambasted by Southerners and their press for making white soldiers do some of the "slave's work" of building fortifications. (And because at that point in the war building defensive positions was viewed by many as "cowardly" as opposed to meeting the enemy openly on the field of battle.)

2. There was always the hope of getting slaves and land for them to work to build up the common white man's own family fortune.

3. Poor whites did not want increased competition for jobs from free blacks. (Neither did thousands upon thousands in the North who vehemently opposed emancipation.)

4. Many of them believed blacks were dangerous animals who would roam the countryside raping, murdering and pillaging/seeking revenge if freed. Indeed the whole southern emphasis on martial prowess can be traced back to this. Just like the ancient Spartans white southerners lived in perpetual unspoken fear of a rebellion by slaves who in many cases outnumbered them. and developed a militaristic honor-based culture to deal with it. Many Northerners had a similar view of blacks.

Now, here's where it gets tricky- the South seceded to protect slavery, but the north did not initially go to war to end slavery. Ending slavery only became a secondary war aim for the North many months into the war, and justified at (Northern) home primarily as a way of weakening Southern resources. But there can be no doubt that the south seceded because they were afraid that the election of Lincoln, who was from a broadly abolitionist party (though Lincoln himself was a wishy-washy moderate on the subject who going in didn't believe he had the constitutional power to end slavery) signaled that slavery's days were numbered. There can't be any doubt about this from anyone not indoctrinated into the "lost cause" cult, because the seceding confederates TOLD US SO in their own words:

https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

Quote from: Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens, 1861
Our new government is founded upon exactly [this] idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

CASE. CLOSED.


As for why so many people don't know or deny this, it's part of revisionist history that started almost as soon as the guns stopped firing, immediately Southern generals and others (including the above quoted Stephens) started re-writing history to justify their actions. The North just kind of let them go ahead with this in the name of national unity. This propaganda continued and even ramped up whenever black rights threatened to take hold in the south. Both at the turn of the century and during the civil rights era of the 1960s, which is when most of these "Confederate monuments" were built as a not-so-subtle F U to the black community asking for equality. And this revisionism was far sweeping and influential. Look at "Gone with the Wind", for many decades considered one of if not the best American movie ever made, it's laughably, pathetically plain pro-Confederate and pro-slavery propaganda.

For more information on the war I can't recommend James M. McPherson's "Battle Cry of Freedom: The Civil War Era" strongly enough. https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Cry-Freedom-Civil-War/dp/019516895X
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 01:07:11 PM by Ratty »

Offline Dracula9

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Re: The Legacy of General Lee
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2017, 01:28:02 PM »
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Cavalry Ratty?

Cavalratty?



Cavalratty.

Offline Ratty

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Re: The Legacy of General Lee
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2017, 05:36:12 PM »
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Cavalry Ratty?

Cavalratty?

Cavalratty.

Yeah, and I agree with Jorge that moving these statues to museums and surrounding them with proper historical context is the way to go. They're a part of history but since they're literally propaganda and always intended as such, they're a part that needs context/clarification/correction.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 07:08:28 PM by Ratty »

Offline Dracula9

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Re: The Legacy of General Lee
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2017, 09:44:49 PM »
+1
But seeing as that's the rational solution...it'll never happen.

As is the norm.

Offline Briraka

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Re: The Legacy of General Lee
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2017, 06:59:27 AM »
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actually, i'm all in favor of keeping these confederate statues where they are...
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Re: The Legacy of General Lee
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2017, 09:49:43 PM »
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Oh yeah, and also:
meat

Soda as well.

Offline Dracula9

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Re: The Legacy of General Lee
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2017, 10:49:33 PM »
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>the south is gonna rise again

please no

i live here and my family tree's full of appalachian rednecks and i must admit a part of me does love some of that twangy bluegrass goodness but please no
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 10:51:13 PM by Dracula9 »

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Re: The Legacy of General Lee
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2017, 09:37:14 AM »
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We've got our own share of redneck up here in Canada too. My Dad was one of them, lol. The largest collection of Canadian rednecks all dwell in Alberta  :P
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Re: The Legacy of General Lee
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2017, 09:45:00 AM »
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Well, it's not as bad as Johnny Rebel.  :P
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