Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [ID] Topic: Explaining Who Saint Germain Is - A Long Conjecture Essay on Curse of Darkness  (Read 8202 times)

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Offline theplottwist

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Who exactly is Saint Germain, and what does he want?

Freaking long reading ahead.

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« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 07:58:40 PM by theplottwist »
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Offline Lelygax

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I think it have something to do with Hector descendants. Its only a shot, but maybe Maria is one of them, since she can evoke creatures to help her. She could save Alucard from pain that in the future could help forging Alucard Spear and in the final battle.
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Offline Chernabogue

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Bravo! A very detailed and interesting analysis! :)

Offline Shinobi

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IMO here's what I understand since the first and the last time I played and paid attention to the game's story, Germain thinks that Hector is the most suitable vessel to Dracula because he is the person with full of hatred and thirst for vengeance and no one else, Death knows this well too which is why he's helping or guiding Hector under the guise of a priest named Zead.
The reason why Germain attempts to stop Hector is he's fully aware that he will surely succumb to the curse and ended up as Dracula's vessel but he felt something from Hector that he's a kind of guy who can change his own fate so there's a possibility that he will not ended up to become Dracula's vessel so Germain surrenders and have faith on Hector, of course Zead was puzzled why Germain let Hector to go further.
However Germain as well as Zead didn't speculate something......That Isaac turns out to be Hector's perfect substitute to become Dracula's vessel because turns out that Isaac also a man full of hatred and thirst for vengeance, even worse than Hector's. If Hector proceeds to kill Isaac then he will become worse than Isaac and instantly became Dracula's vessel and fortunately Hector didn't fall on 'Dracula's curse', Zead was a little disappointed since he's confident that Hector is the 'ONE' but still he achieved his goal even against what he planned from the start by using Isaac in place of Hector to ressurect Dracula.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 12:00:35 PM by Shinobi »

Offline VladCT

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At the risk of sounding like a Spelling Nazi, it's Zead, buddy. This ain't Power Rangers. :V

Now about the essay itself, I was going to ask something, but I'm currently rethinking it as this heavily involves quite a bit of timey-wimey stuff. Really, those scientists need to get to researching time travel so that at least some of the complications with it are cleared up. My question really hinges on one thing though: Is Death not omnipresent despite being heavily tied with Fate?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 09:56:13 AM by VladCT »
It is precisely because it never cared, that people do care.  It's something which it's lacking, because that which it has, it has lackluster of.
^^
You are now reading this in Robert Belgrade's voice.

Then Lords of Shadow 2 just takes a big, semi-solid, smelly, pea-green dump all over everything.

Offline Shinobi

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Oops my bad, yeah it should be 'Zead' not Zedd.

Offline theplottwist

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IMO here's what I understand since the first and the last time I played and paid attention to the game's story, Germain thinks that Hector is the most suitable vessel to Dracula because he is the person with full of hatred and thirst for vengeance and no one else, Death knows this well too which is why he's helping or guiding Hector under the guise of a priest named Zead.
The reason why Germain attempts to stop Hector is he's fully aware that he will surely succumb to the curse and ended up as Dracula's vessel but he felt something from Hector that he's a kind of guy who can change his own fate so there's a possibility that he will not ended up to become Dracula's vessel so Germain surrenders and have faith on Hector, of course Zead was puzzled why Germain let Hector to go further.
However Germain as well as Zead didn't speculate something......That Isaac turns out to be Hector's perfect substitute to become Dracula's vessel because turns out that Isaac also a man full of hatred and thirst for vengeance, even worse than Hector's. If Hector proceeds to kill Isaac then he will become worse than Isaac and instantly became Dracula's vessel and fortunately Hector didn't fall on 'Dracula's curse', Zedd was a little disappointed since he's confident that Hector is the 'ONE' but still he achieved his goal even against what he planned from the start by using Isaac in place of Hector to ressurect Dracula.

Well, it WOULD work, if it weren't for the fact that this all is a plot by Death to make Hector into the vessel, not Isaac. On the last cutscene between Hector and Death, Death makes it clear that Hector is the dude he wants, since Hector is the superior Devil Forgemaster between him and Isaac. and both are sufused in Dracula's dark power. What is missing is the curse, and I'll speak now of something that I didn't speak in my essay: Dracula's curse is actually something more palpable than it appears.

On Mortvia Aqueduct, Zead says that Isaac is the source of the Curse... And he's not lying. Isaac is literally the source of the Curse. Dracula cast the curse upon Isaac because he was the only one available at the time of his defeat (Hector was gone, having shed his former powers), for him to carry it and allow for his premature ressurrection. However Isaac is nowhere as good as a vessel as Hector would be. That's exactly why Death has orchestrated it all: If Hector manages to kill the source of the Curse, the Curse will pass on to him, like a contagious infection, just like it passed on to Isaac from Dracula upon his death. Death ends up using Isaac because the Curse is still inside him, and he's alive.

We already know of one more case where a pestilent curse is cast upon someone by Dracula himself: Simon Belmont.

The Curse needs a vessel corrupted by it for Dracula to be able to inhabit.

Sorry if this is exactly what you meant and I understood wrong.

Quote
Now about the essay itself, I was going to ask something, but I'm currently rethinking it as this heavily involves quite a bit of timey-wimey stuff. Really, those scientists need to get to researching time travel so that at least some of the complications with it are cleared up. My question really hinges on one thing though: Is Death not omnipresent despite being heavily tied with Fate?

That's a good one and the short answer, based on CoD's story, is... More or less.

Death is not really omnipresent, but is partially omniscient in a "Dr. Manhattan" sense. Death knows only about it's own actions, and is bound by Fate to bring them to fruition.

Death's "omniscience" allows for each iteration of himself to act independently, that is, if something happens that messes with time and fate (in this case Germain), Death is not bound by a timeline, thus he can act differently everytime to bring the same results to fruition. Death is omniscient about his current existence, in a sense that he can perceive if things are happening again thanks to a time disruptor. Death would be a "time janitor" of sorts. While Germain is the one that tries changing things, Death is the one that cleans his mess, bringing order to the timeline by undoing what Germain did. The problem is that Death is an evil janitor, and his actions are still towards Dracula's fullfillment.

Death exists in the timeline much like Dracula or Alucard or any being that can live for ages, but different from them, Death is not pinned down by predeterminated events. Death's iterations along the timeline are all self aware and can all act independently if needed to reach the same goal Fate calls for. Death CAN'T CHANGE FATE or alter time as he sees fit, he can only do what Fate tells him to do, but HOW he does it is what's under his control. He knows what must be done to fullfill fate, and is also aware of what changed in the timeline (thanks to a time travelling diruptor), thus knowing what must be "fixed" for fate to fullfill itself.

CoD's Death is probably the only iteration that had to deal with a time traveller. According to what happened on Germain's era, Death is forced by fate to make Hector into Dracula. No matter how he does it, the only thing that matters is that he do it. Thus he simply did it. Germain's constant time travelling, however, forces Death to reenact his actions differently towards the same goal because it "resets" him back to ground-zero, forcing him to rewrite his previous iteration, and since he's aware of changes in time, he must do it differently as long as Germain keeps returning, because Germain is a nuisance that is also aware of time changes.

Nether Germain nor Death can change fate itself on their current situations BUT Death's trap ends up giving Germain the chance to be an immovable object on the timeline WHILE keeping his knowlege about his previous exploits. If Germain never travels back to this point in time again (because he's aware he succeeded, thus no need to do it again), this is the definitive timeline, and Fate is successfully rewritten to demand that Death fails. Death, now, may be self aware, but Fate demands him to fail, and the timeline is set. He can do it any way he wishes, but the goal is the same: Death must fail, and his failure now comes from Germain being an immovable object in time, thanks to himself. With no time traveller to reset Death back in place to give him one more shot at changing thing (NOT setting the trap, for instance), this is the final timeline rewrite. What is the use for being self aware when you can't change fate?

It was never about changing time, but changing fate, who controls Death!
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 12:56:11 PM by theplottwist »
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Offline Reinhart77

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i enjoyed the essay.  nice take on it.

Offline zangetsu468

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A very interesting read. It reminded me of the heavy emphasis on causality found in other popular media, namely the Berserk series. In addition to the scene where Death (Zead) uses his blade to cut the fabric of space/time like Skullknight with the sword of actuation.

I don't believe I thought it through as much as yourself, but the basic gist as I believed was that either Devil forgemaster was going to become Dracula's vessel. but yes, originally it was supposed to be Hector. If Hector killed Isaac and became the vessel, Trevor would have stepped in and killed Hector/ Dracula. Hector and Julia never would have hooked up, perhaps the saddest ending of all.

One thing though, if SG can stop time - during the fight with him he uses 'time advance' and 'time reverse' - is his stopping time limited to that zone of the machine tower i.e. where the battle happens, or is he actually stopping time itself? I thought it was the former, because technically, wouldn't the act of stopping time altogether change events? Similarly in areas where you have to stop time with Hector to access the Eneomaos machine tower, for example. (on this note, I always thought SG was Eneomaos, unless it has some other significance, perhaps to the historical figure Oenomaus )

Check this excerpt from Castlevania Wikia:
Zead appears as a priest, who investigates the source of the curse that runs through Europe. Hector encounters him a few times, one of which reveals that he seems to have a grudge against Saint Germain. Eventually, although not directly stated, Zead manages to lock Saint Germain at the top of the clock tower in the Eneomaos Machine Tower, where he planned to make Hector and Saint Germain kill each other; however, neither of them die and they are released from said place. It is here where Hector questions his ideals of revenge towards Isaac, thereby preventing him from becoming the next host for Lord Dracula.

Say SG can manipulate time, couldn't he just use time reverse and go back to before he was imprisoned? If he was truly imprisoned then maybe he allowed himself to be in order for Hector to question his motives for revenge. Perhaps he foresaw this to be an outcome whereby Hector could be spared. Because in all likeliness, if SG never interfered then Hector may have just killed Isaac. Interesting...
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 05:49:50 AM by zangetsu468 »
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
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                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
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            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
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            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
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BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline theplottwist

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You point out some interesting things I forgot to mention, and one that I overlooked. I'll adress them in order. Just a reminder: ALL of this comes from nowhere but MY understanding of what is happening on the game!

Now for the points:

Quote
I don't believe I thought it through as much as yourself, but the basic gist as I believed was that either Devil forgemaster was going to become Dracula's vessel. but yes, originally it was supposed to be Hector. If Hector killed Isaac and became the vessel, Trevor would have stepped in and killed Hector/ Dracula. Hector and Julia never would have hooked up, perhaps the saddest ending of all.

You see, if Germain went back in time to stop Hector, the problem on his future concerns Death's actions towards Hector. His future is endangered by Dracula, who got ressurrected, and here is the thing: If Trevor stepped in to fight and defeat Dracula-possessed Hector, why is Germain here? Well... He's here because Trevor also failed, then. It's possible that Death even surprise attacks Trevor at that moment when he's leaving the cavern, just before snatching Hector away. We do see in-game that Trevor can be surprised to devastating effects, when Isaac defeats him with a mere dagger (GRANTED! It's ridiculous! But still, surprise attack shenanigans).

Quote
One thing though, if SG can stop time - during the fight with him he uses 'time advance' and 'time reverse' - is his stopping time limited to the zone of clock tower i.e. where the battle happens, or is he actually stopping time itself? I thought it was the former, because technically, wouldn't the act of stopping time altogether change events? Similarly in areas where you have to stop time with Hector to access the Eneomaos machine tower, for example. (on this note, I always thought SG was Eneomaos, unless it has some other significance, perhaps to the historical figure Oenomaus )

I though about addressing Time Reverse and Time Advance (SPECIALLY Time Reverse, since it actually extends the fight, which would make Hector even more late.), but I think it'd be kinda push it a little, mixing gameplay elements too much with the story (Gameplay and Story Segregation).
So, I actually found something that kinda shows how his power works while trapped on the tower: When in Germain's boss fight, his powers affect only him. Notice how "Time Reverse" makes only his own HP go back up, instead of making both his and Hector's HP restore themselves, and how Time Advance makes only a vine grow faster, instead of actually making everything move faster? On the cutscene before, he does mention that he's partially freed from the fetters of time. So that must mean that he can still use his powers , but only in a much smaller scale, locally, only to selectivelly affect himself (which would explain why the clock moves, and why "Time Stop" works to stop Hector"). So that means that he's unable to actually travel through time, only speed or reverse time concerning himself, as it would be advantageous only to himself, inside that barrier.

Quote
Check this excerpt from Castlevania Wikia:

Well, the excerpt IS based on opinion lol but this part is of interest:

Quote
where he planned to make Hector and Saint Germain kill each other; however, neither of them die and they are released from said place.

And it might even make sense! But Death's plan was still a desperate gamble: He though that making Germain physical would allow for Hector to kill him, but didn't take into account that it actually allowed for Germain to act upon reality and change fate. Since this was something completelly new, Death had no way of knowing the outcome until the battle was over. Hector having a naturally good heart helps matters, and Death expected the "vengeance" factor to actually surpass this. But Death didn't knew that Hector was spying on them on the woods, and lets be honest: That scene makes it quite clear that Germain is FAR less dangerous than Zead. This might have helped tipping Hector's consideration towards Germain.

I like to think that the barrier trap was a Schrodinger's Trap of sorts. Inside it, fate became uncertain exactly because Germain was physical. When the battle ended, the barrier unmade itself because Fate had already decided in favor of Germain.

But just another reminder: Nowhere it says that Death expected Hector to kill Germain in the game! In fact, in the cutscene in Aiolon Ruins, Death actually asks Hector if he met Germain in the clocktower. Why would he ask if he knew that Hector would meet him there? He could be playing dumb, of course, but then there is something else: Death gets visibly jittery when Hector says that Germain plans to not interfere anymore. Why would this be, if the whole plan was all about making Germain not interfere? In this case he ACTUALLY got what he wanted, why is he so nervous? This leads me to think that making Hector kill Germain (and consequently get him to not interfere anymore) was not the plan at all. In fact, Death's question about the clocktower makes me believe that Death didn't even knew that Hector would actually go through the barrier-trap on the clocktower. He trapped Germain there, MAYBE, for himself to get his hands on later, and Hector getting there was not in the plan.

Quote
It is here where Hector questions his ideals of revenge towards Isaac, thereby preventing him from becoming the next host for Lord Dracula.

Well, I honestly don't think so, because at the end of the game, where he's just about to kill Isaac, it's Julia that he sees on his mind. Germain's quote about him not being alone is meant for Julia. Germain is aware (now) that Julia is the only one able to make Hector question his revenge, and the only way for Hector to actually receive Julia's speech at Dracula's Castle entrance is if he arrives too late on Aiolon Ruins.

It's not Germain making him question his revenge, it's Julia.

(I think I should add this to the essay at the top, because the whole thing just makes even more sense [to me] now)

Quote
Say SG can manipulate time, couldn't he just use time reverse and go back to before he was imprisoned? If he was truly imprisoned then maybe he allowed himself to be in order for Hector to question his motives for revenge. Perhaps he foresaw this to be an outcome whereby Hector could be spared. Because in all likeliness, if SG never interfered then Hector may have just killed Isaac. Interesting...

I don't know exactly what I should answer for the whole thing BUT for the "time reverse" thing I do:

Germain, as I stated above, has his powers limited here, and limited to himself. The Trap is set by Death to disable Germain from actually being able to reverse ALL with him. Thus, I think that if he were to reverse time trying to escape, he'd only be able to do it to the extent of the moment he got trapped.

Besides, we see on the battle that his time manipulation powers can only be applied to certain aspects! He can only make that vine move fast, and can only make his health go back in time. Maybe making HIMSELF go back so much is impossible for him at the moment.

"But he can stop time and Hector with it!"

Yeah, and he does so inefficiently, considering that the "time stopping" fails just before the attack that is meant to hit Hector is actually ready to strike, making me believe that Germain's time powers are indeed very limited inside this barrier. One more evidence is that Germain restores his health only once, and the second time he's about to die, he gives up on the battle. Why? Because he can't make his health go back in time again, otherwise he would fight until Hector gave up.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 06:50:10 AM by theplottwist »
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Offline Lelygax

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I like to think that the barrier trap was a Schrodinger's Trap of sorts. Inside it, fate became uncertain exactly because Germain was physical. When the battle ended, the barrier unmade itself because Fate had already decided in favor of Germain.

Giving my idea, but maybe this barrier was meant to trap him inside until the battle ended, since he choose to give up and Hector agreed to let him go (a thing that Zead wasn't counting on) the barrier was undone.

But just another reminder: Nowhere it says that Death expected Hector to kill Germain in the game! In fact, in the cutscene in Aiolon Ruins, Death actually asks Hector if he met Germain in the clocktower. Why would he ask if he knew that Hector would meet him there? He could be playing dumb, of course, but then there is something else: Death gets visibly jittery when Hector says that Germain plans to not interfere anymore. Why would this be, if the whole plan was all about making Germain not interfere? In this case he ACTUALLY got what he wanted, why is he so nervous? This leads me to think that making Hector kill Germain (and consequently get him to not interfere anymore) was not the plan at all. In fact, Death's question about the clocktower makes me believe that Death didn't even knew that Hector would actually go through the barrier-trap on the clocktower. He trapped Germain there, MAYBE, for himself to get his hands on later, and Hector getting there was not in the plan.

He knew Germain well, if he still lives and choose to not interfere, things were pending to Germain side.

I don't know exactly what I should answer for the whole thing BUT for the "time reverse" thing I do:

Germain, as I stated above, has his powers limited here, and limited to himself. The Trap is set by Death to disable Germain from actually being able to reverse ALL with him. Thus, I think that if he were to reverse time trying to escape, he'd only be able to do it to the extent of the moment he got trapped.

Besides, we see on the battle that his time manipulation powers can only be applied to certain aspects! He can only make that vine move fast, and can only make his health go back in time. Maybe making HIMSELF go back so much is impossible for him at the moment.

"But he can stop time and Hector with it!"

Yeah, and he does so inefficiently, considering that the "time stopping" fails just before the attack that is meant to hit Hector is actually ready to strike, making me believe that Germain's time powers are indeed very limited inside this barrier. One more evidence is that Germain restores his health only once, and the second time he's about to die, he gives up on the battle. Why? Because he can't make his health go back in time again, otherwise he would fight until Hector gave up.

I think that he could only use his powers inside this barrier to change time, not space, not able to move. So he couldn't rewind to "before the barrier" because it would be the same, he from before entering the barrier but in the same place inside the barrier.

Only a idea, I didnt played that game too much.
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Offline zangetsu468

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@plottwist

Good points, I haven't played CoD in a long time so thanks for the reminder in the finer details.

The point about Julia, I agree with. Due to Julia reminding Hector of Rosalie, this may have always been destined and perhaps Isaac was more inclined to eventually be the vessel. The excerpt was from Castlevania wikia, and it seems strange that they've overlooked this.

Was SG actually imprisoned by Death? This is one detail I wasn't 100% clear on. I never recalled it to be explicitly stated, I might have to go back and give CoD a bash at some point.

You may be right about time reverse/ advance, but if it only affected him then how come a vine grows? I would say that rather his power is localised to a dedicated location (perhaps as Lelygax has suggested, within the confines of the barrier) but time itself (as in all existence) doesn't stop.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline theplottwist

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@plottwist

Good points, I haven't played CoD in a long time so thanks for the reminder in the finer details.

The point about Julia, I agree with. Due to Julia reminding Hector of Rosalie, this may have always been destined and perhaps Isaac was more inclined to eventually be the vessel. The excerpt was from Castlevania wikia, and it seems strange that they've overlooked this.

Was SG actually imprisoned by Death? This is one detail I wasn't 100% clear on. I never recalled it to be explicitly stated, I might have to go back and give CoD a bash at some point.

You may be right about time reverse/ advance, but if it only affected him then how come a vine grows? I would say that rather his power is localised to a dedicated location (perhaps as Lelygax has suggested, within the confines of the barrier) but time itself (as in all existence) doesn't stop.

About SG being imprisoned by Death, he indeed was. He even wonders how could Hector get inside the barrier. He's apparently not aware that the barrier makes him physical, he only thinks that it prevents him from moving around. Hector can get inside the barrier because he's already physical and can't travel through time. SG, in other hand, can't escape the barrier from inside by being made physical AND having his time manipulation removed. SG moves through time, and for this it's required that everything moves with him. If he can't move everything with him, then he can't move through time itself.

About time reverse and advance, that's exactly what I meant, but I made a poor choice of words.
The mastermind behind the "Umbra of Sorrow" project. But not the only one.

Offline theANdROId

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This thread has been supremely interesting to read!  Thanks to all for your in depth thoughts and ideas here!

Makes me wish even more there had been some sort of play mode with SG!

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My response to the holes you dudes found on the essay, which I already answered, but since the responses are broken in pieces, I made it all in one text; I wanted to post it on the essay itself, but the character limit wouldn't allow. So here it is, condensed in a nice orderly fashion:

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 11:29:15 PM by theplottwist »
The mastermind behind the "Umbra of Sorrow" project. But not the only one.

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