Topic: Explaining Who Saint Germain Is - A Long Conjecture Essay on Curse of Darkness

[theplottwist]

Who exactly is Saint Germain, and what does he want?

Freaking long reading ahead.

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Watching some videos from CoD's cutscenes, I though about St Germain and his objectives, and come to realize some things about him that were kinda muddy to me before (I don't know about you guys).

Much has been speculated about Germain, even that he's some sort of omniscient being, but I now think differently: Germain is just a normal dude, trying to save the future where he comes from, from Dracula, and that can travel back in time somehow.

Thing is, Germain does NOT come from the future we know. He comes from one where Hector became the vessel for Dracula, by being possessed by the Curse. Germain's origin era gets rewritten at the end of Curse of Darkness.

First, his initial encounter with Hector:



Here, he mentions knowing everything about Hector, and that he must not pursue Isaac. We all know why: So that Hector don't succumb to the Curse and become the perfect vessel for Dracula. Problem is: at this point in the story, Hector WILL succumb to the Curse, no matter what Germain does. Germain CAN'T stop Hector from becoming Dracula. I'll explain this later.

He also mentions that he's here on behalf of a "greater will" and that "the world hangs in the balance". This greater will, of course, is not some god or abstract concept. It's the continuation of makind itself, and defeat of Dracula, the ultimate darkness, that has actually conquered the future, and has destroyed mankind. Germain is possibly working for an organization in a last desperate atempt to stop Death's scheme in the past.

Here is Hector meeting Death (spoiler alert?) at the Aqueduct:



He goes on to manipulate Hector to follow Isaac, but then he starts feeling uneasy and says he has a "matter he must attend to" and leaves. Of course, there is not any matter. He senses Germain's arrival, and escapes a direct confrontation with him. Germain proceeds to talk Hector into not listening to Zead, but did you notice how he doesn't try as much as the first time? That's because he realized that this timeline is possibly lost, and must really track Death down if he expects to have any chance. This is because Germain can ONLY be an obstacle to Death, and not Hector, and apparently he has already gone through this a million times. Germain is intentionally mysterious because he can't "overstep his bounds". He also mentions that Death is "the one being beyond my recollection". This all I'll explain ahead.

Here, we see Germain and Death bickering. Pay close attention to what they say, what they're bickering about:



Now, some pretty important hints are given to us:

First Death says "Do not go beyond your bounds. You mustn't speak nor act upon matters related to fate. You had better refrain from saying anything... Unsuitabble".

Now... What are Germain's bounds? His bounds are Time. Germain, being a traveller, is "not allowed to speak the truth and not act upon reality", a traveller "merelly passes thru, touching nothing and changing nothing", and this is because it messes with Fate, the domain of another being: Death.

It's quite possible, then, that if Germain says something too overboard, he might end up screwing everything and actually botching his own plan: To keep returning here to annoy Death to... death. More on this later.

Germain concurs with the accusation of messing with Fate, but retorts, asking if it's not ludicrous for Death to be guiding a traveller (Hector) under these circunstances, and Death replies that he's merelly lending assistance to Hector, and that "it's the same with the Curse". What is the same with the Curse? The fact that he's also lending assistance to it, probably by making people's lifes miserable through he guise of Zead.
Germain points out that "this is ridiculous, you have different rules for yourself", and this because Death is a being from Fate, but this SHOULDN'T allow him to cheat and manipulate Fate, in Germain's logic. But as we can see, Death attacks him, and this is because this is a futile discussion: Death shouldn't be allowed to mess with Fate, but he CAN, at least to fix the changes made by pesky time travellers overstepping their bounds. Fate itself demands the Death "fix" things up.

Germain's last words are the golden nugget: "I'll keep returning, until the day you finally surrender".

There is one interesting fact here: Germain's speech seems to imply that Death is NOT bound by a fixed timeline rewritting, but only driven by Fate, able to retain his memories regardless of changes in time. The future both of them already know from previous experience: Hector becomes Dracula in a timeline where Germain doesn't come back, thanks to Death.

They both act as if they had already witnessed this many times before. Remember how he "expected to meet someone else" at the Aqueduct? That's because he already did it before, and failed to hinder Death. This also explains Death being the one beyond his recollection. Death responds only to fate, and not being bound by memory-rewritting changes in time, will act erratically, and thus Germain can't "access" Death like he does with immovable objects in the timeline. Everything will always happen just like before (like Hector, who will always be at the same places), EXCEPT Death, who acts differently, since he's able to remember his past exploits against Germain, and wants to avoid him to get his goals, since he keeps placing himself in front of Death's path.

Germain literally can't recollect Death's actions, because Death is free from the shackles of time predetermination. He will remember how everything happens perfectly, but can't trust his memory when Death is involved.

Germain has no way of winning because he can't mess with reality, and can't access Death preciselly, but he can be a nuisance to him, which happens when he goes back in time: he "resets" Death, who maintains his memories about the past events and his win over Germain, but must do it all over again because Fate requires him to, and Germain won't stop resetting him back to this specific point in time. He expects Death to "finally surrender" by consuming his patience, through having him do it over and over again until he finally gets tired and lets his win go.
It's just like being good at chess, and playing chess with someone bad at it that has the power to go back in time and make you play it over and over again while you retain the memories of your past wins. Eventually you'll simply give up, at which point he'll win and not rewind time, not allowing you to "replay" the match, granting him a permanent win.

Germain has already returned many times, and already is a stone on Death's shoes for far too long, even if he has failed. He's a nuisance to Death.
As we can see, even if Death had won every time, he's tired of having Germain interfering and "resetting" him back to this point. "No one escapes from me" he says, foreshadowing the trap he'll set for Germain on Eneomaos Machine Tower expecting to stop Germain from travelling back in time (and thus resetting Death). If he successfully traps Germain there, he won't be resetted anymore, and this will be his definitive win, but that will end up being his undoing:



Now, the very first line from Germain is a very strong hint: "Oh, an unexpected guest!" Wait, "unexpected" for someone that already knows what will happen with an ummovable object in the timeline (Hector)?

This is because all other times before, there was no trap on the tower. This is a new trick employed by Death, as evidenced by Germain's "I have fallen into his trap at last".

Germain probably teleported everywhere looking for Death, including in the tower, but never once stopped at it long enough to actually meet Hector before. Since Death wasn't there, there simply was no reason to waste time at the tower. But now he's forced to do so, because the trap locks him into place. And he questions Hector "How did you get here?" to which Hector basically replies, "Normally, dude". At this exact point, Death's plan is screwed because Hector's very presence there and his inability to notice any "barriers", makes Germain realize the nature of the trap itself: It makes him into a physical being, unable to travel through time, but able to act upon reality itself, just like Hector! This never happened before, and so he decides to take his chances by fighting Hector, expecting that "all he needs to know will be revealed" to him.

Now, since he was never locked in place before, he never got to actually *waste* Hector's time through a fight. He's physically altering the "keyframes" on this timeline, by making Hector late. He's rewritting fate by simply *actually existing* as a physical being in this time. Hector should be doing specific things at specific points in the timeline, as an immovable object that he is, but now Germain's physical interference was actually able to change Hector's position in the timeline, altering fate's will itself.



After the battle he surrenders, simply because his goal has been achieved: He made Hector late in his pursue of Isaac. It may have been intentional or not, but Germain sure knows that his mere physical presence is enough to change things.

Germain also reveals things about being a traveller, and that he's "only half here". This leads me to think that Germain's REAL body is in his actual home time, while what we see is his conscience/soul/whatever that has been transported to this time using unknown means, and this explains why he can't physically act upon reality. He's literally an hologram of himself. But this trap set by Death made him into a physical being, able to interact directly with Hector.

He proceeds to say that he "feels a new destiny flowing out of you" and this is obvious to him because Hector is LATE. As I said before, Hector should be at specific places doing specific things by now, but he's not, thanks to Germain fighting him. The very next cutscene will show exactly why "being late" is important to changing everything.

Also, we see that the "barrier trap" has been destroyed. Why is that? Because Germain finally succeeded in altering fate! At this exact point, Germain won and Death lost. That's why he "sends Zead his regards". He's gloating his win. Fate itself has no need for Death to win anymore, thus there is no reason for Germain to be trapped. He is simply not travelling back to this time anymore, and the timeline has been successfully rewritten.

"But he could lose Hector's time on purpose just by talking to him like he always does!"

Not exactly. Hector has already demonstrated that if Germain keeps appearing too much, he'll simply stop listening. The fight IS important to slow Hector down.

And as for the next cutscene:



Tell me, what would have happened if Hector had arrived one-Germain-boss-fight earlier?

Simple: He'd arrived soon enough to face Isaac alone, before Trevor OR along with Trevor. In both cases, Trevor would eventually appear, and as we can see, Trevor is more than enough challenge for Isaac.

In this version, taking Trevor's blood is useless because even if Isaac can do it, he can't make his escape. He exploited Hector's late arrival and Trevor's distraction to escape, but in this version he'd need to take Trevor's blood BEFORE escaping, and with Hector being present earlier, this would be probably impossible.

Now, Hector may not be a challenge to Isaac, but as I stated before, Trevor is. In this version, Trevor would make up for Hector's handicap, and actually kick Isaac's ass enough for Hector to deliver the finishing blow.

This is the twist of fate that was thwarted when Germain challenged Hector to a battle. Germain changed fate simply by making Hector arrive at the "wrong" right time.

Hadn't he intervened physically, Hector would have arrived earlier, and made Isaac's escape impossible, allowing for Hector to get his revenge by killing him. Now, what happens if Hector kills Isaac without any Julia to move his heart? This happens:



If Trevor was there on the caves with him, and Isaac couldn't have made his escape, Trevor would have taken up on Hector's handicap and beaten him to a bloody pulp, allowing Hector to deliver the finishing blow. Death would've appeared and taken Hector to be used as Dracula's vessel. Evidence for this is that Death appears on the previous cutscene JUST as Trevor is leaving, and appears rambling about a "lost opportunity", no less. What opportunity? The one to kill Isaac and get Hector to succumb to the curse. But Hector says that he'll still pursue Isaac, so Death thinks everything is fine, and simply postpones his goals by imediatelly telling him where Isaac is. It's all nice and dandy, until Hector tells him about Germain's regards.

Now just look at Death's reaction when he confirms that Hector met Germain while in physical state there. It has "Oh fuck this shouldn't have happened!" written all over it. Indeed, it shouldn't have happened, because now Germain found a legitimate way to mess with Fate, and here is where Death knows that he must abide to Fate's will that now is "Dracula must get ressurrected through an imperfect vessel, and be defeated".

On the cutscene above, Death does mention the Hector needed his powers, but NOT because this was needed to ressurrect Dracula, but because it was needed to properly be able to kill Isaac. With Trevor's help in that "Isaac dies in the caves" scenario, Hector has no need to actually recover his powers.

But here there's also an interesting thing: On this scenario, at the caves, what makes me think that Death would be able to simply take Hector as a vessel?

That's very simple: Hector is still not as powerful here as he is on the end of the game. Remember how hard of a boss Death is at the end of the game? Yeah, now imagine if middle-game Hector had to fight full power Death in this circunstances. 100% sure he'd lose. So this is fate acting again: By making Hector late, Germain managed to open room for Hector to meet Julia who reminds him about the Curse, and to actually make Hector recover his full power, making him strong enough to defeat Death in the future AND Dracula.

Finally, we have the final cutscene:



Germain's speech is not dubious: He legitimatelly doesn't know what will happen now, only that there is the final battle between Dracula and humans. He has already helped Hector avoid his fate of becoming a vessel here, so now he'll go foward, and see if Hector's battle is remembered or if it has started anew, which leads me to believe that something in Hector's story is actually crucial for Dracula's final defeat.

So that's it dudes! I hope you liked the reading. I wrote it because Germain always seemed needlessly mysterious on this story, so I decided to take a deep look into it and find out what Germain is all about;

My conclusion: Germain is a guy that comes from a future ruled by Dracula, where Hector failed and became Dracula's vessel. Death must obey fate (In this case the fate being "Dracula wins") and make it happen, but with Germain's constant interference, Death is actually performing the same task nonstop, until he creates the tower trap, which ends up giving Germain the upper hand.

[Lelygax]

I think it have something to do with Hector descendants. Its only a shot, but maybe Maria is one of them, since she can evoke creatures to help her. She could save Alucard from pain that in the future could help forging Alucard Spear and in the final battle.

[Chernabogue]

Bravo! A very detailed and interesting analysis!

[Shinobi]

IMO here's what I understand since the first and the last time I played and paid attention to the game's story, Germain thinks that Hector is the most suitable vessel to Dracula because he is the person with full of hatred and thirst for vengeance and no one else, Death knows this well too which is why he's helping or guiding Hector under the guise of a priest named Zead.
The reason why Germain attempts to stop Hector is he's fully aware that he will surely succumb to the curse and ended up as Dracula's vessel but he felt something from Hector that he's a kind of guy who can change his own fate so there's a possibility that he will not ended up to become Dracula's vessel so Germain surrenders and have faith on Hector, of course Zead was puzzled why Germain let Hector to go further.
However Germain as well as Zead didn't speculate something......That Isaac turns out to be Hector's perfect substitute to become Dracula's vessel because turns out that Isaac also a man full of hatred and thirst for vengeance, even worse than Hector's. If Hector proceeds to kill Isaac then he will become worse than Isaac and instantly became Dracula's vessel and fortunately Hector didn't fall on 'Dracula's curse', Zead was a little disappointed since he's confident that Hector is the 'ONE' but still he achieved his goal even against what he planned from the start by using Isaac in place of Hector to ressurect Dracula.

[VladCT]

At the risk of sounding like a Spelling Nazi, it's Zead, buddy. This ain't Power Rangers. :V

Now about the essay itself, I was going to ask something, but I'm currently rethinking it as this heavily involves quite a bit of timey-wimey stuff. Really, those scientists need to get to researching time travel so that at least some of the complications with it are cleared up. My question really hinges on one thing though: Is Death not omnipresent despite being heavily tied with Fate?

[Shinobi]

Oops my bad, yeah it should be 'Zead' not Zedd.

[theplottwist]

IMO here's what I understand since the first and the last time I played and paid attention to the game's story, Germain thinks that Hector is the most suitable vessel to Dracula because he is the person with full of hatred and thirst for vengeance and no one else, Death knows this well too which is why he's helping or guiding Hector under the guise of a priest named Zead.
The reason why Germain attempts to stop Hector is he's fully aware that he will surely succumb to the curse and ended up as Dracula's vessel but he felt something from Hector that he's a kind of guy who can change his own fate so there's a possibility that he will not ended up to become Dracula's vessel so Germain surrenders and have faith on Hector, of course Zead was puzzled why Germain let Hector to go further.
However Germain as well as Zead didn't speculate something......That Isaac turns out to be Hector's perfect substitute to become Dracula's vessel because turns out that Isaac also a man full of hatred and thirst for vengeance, even worse than Hector's. If Hector proceeds to kill Isaac then he will become worse than Isaac and instantly became Dracula's vessel and fortunately Hector didn't fall on 'Dracula's curse', Zedd was a little disappointed since he's confident that Hector is the 'ONE' but still he achieved his goal even against what he planned from the start by using Isaac in place of Hector to ressurect Dracula.

Well, it WOULD work, if it weren't for the fact that this all is a plot by Death to make Hector into the vessel, not Isaac. On the last cutscene between Hector and Death, Death makes it clear that Hector is the dude he wants, since Hector is the superior Devil Forgemaster between him and Isaac. and both are sufused in Dracula's dark power. What is missing is the curse, and I'll speak now of something that I didn't speak in my essay: Dracula's curse is actually something more palpable than it appears.

On Mortvia Aqueduct, Zead says that Isaac is the source of the Curse... And he's not lying. Isaac is literally the source of the Curse. Dracula cast the curse upon Isaac because he was the only one available at the time of his defeat (Hector was gone, having shed his former powers), for him to carry it and allow for his premature ressurrection. However Isaac is nowhere as good as a vessel as Hector would be. That's exactly why Death has orchestrated it all: If Hector manages to kill the source of the Curse, the Curse will pass on to him, like a contagious infection, just like it passed on to Isaac from Dracula upon his death. Death ends up using Isaac because the Curse is still inside him, and he's alive.

We already know of one more case where a pestilent curse is cast upon someone by Dracula himself: Simon Belmont.

The Curse needs a vessel corrupted by it for Dracula to be able to inhabit.

Sorry if this is exactly what you meant and I understood wrong.

Now about the essay itself, I was going to ask something, but I'm currently rethinking it as this heavily involves quite a bit of timey-wimey stuff. Really, those scientists need to get to researching time travel so that at least some of the complications with it are cleared up. My question really hinges on one thing though: Is Death not omnipresent despite being heavily tied with Fate?

That's a good one and the short answer, based on CoD's story, is... More or less.

Death is not really omnipresent, but is partially omniscient in a "Dr. Manhattan" sense. Death knows only about it's own actions, and is bound by Fate to bring them to fruition.

Death's "omniscience" allows for each iteration of himself to act independently, that is, if something happens that messes with time and fate (in this case Germain), Death is not bound by a timeline, thus he can act differently everytime to bring the same results to fruition. Death is omniscient about his current existence, in a sense that he can perceive if things are happening again thanks to a time disruptor. Death would be a "time janitor" of sorts. While Germain is the one that tries changing things, Death is the one that cleans his mess, bringing order to the timeline by undoing what Germain did. The problem is that Death is an evil janitor, and his actions are still towards Dracula's fullfillment.

Death exists in the timeline much like Dracula or Alucard or any being that can live for ages, but different from them, Death is not pinned down by predeterminated events. Death's iterations along the timeline are all self aware and can all act independently if needed to reach the same goal Fate calls for. Death CAN'T CHANGE FATE or alter time as he sees fit, he can only do what Fate tells him to do, but HOW he does it is what's under his control. He knows what must be done to fullfill fate, and is also aware of what changed in the timeline (thanks to a time travelling diruptor), thus knowing what must be "fixed" for fate to fullfill itself.

CoD's Death is probably the only iteration that had to deal with a time traveller. According to what happened on Germain's era, Death is forced by fate to make Hector into Dracula. No matter how he does it, the only thing that matters is that he do it. Thus he simply did it. Germain's constant time travelling, however, forces Death to reenact his actions differently towards the same goal because it "resets" him back to ground-zero, forcing him to rewrite his previous iteration, and since he's aware of changes in time, he must do it differently as long as Germain keeps returning, because Germain is a nuisance that is also aware of time changes.

Nether Germain nor Death can change fate itself on their current situations BUT Death's trap ends up giving Germain the chance to be an immovable object on the timeline WHILE keeping his knowlege about his previous exploits. If Germain never travels back to this point in time again (because he's aware he succeeded, thus no need to do it again), this is the definitive timeline, and Fate is successfully rewritten to demand that Death fails. Death, now, may be self aware, but Fate demands him to fail, and the timeline is set. He can do it any way he wishes, but the goal is the same: Death must fail, and his failure now comes from Germain being an immovable object in time, thanks to himself. With no time traveller to reset Death back in place to give him one more shot at changing thing (NOT setting the trap, for instance), this is the final timeline rewrite. What is the use for being self aware when you can't change fate?

It was never about changing time, but changing fate, who controls Death!

[Reinhart77]

i enjoyed the essay.  nice take on it.

[zangetsu468]

A very interesting read. It reminded me of the heavy emphasis on causality found in other popular media, namely the Berserk series. In addition to the scene where Death (Zead) uses his blade to cut the fabric of space/time like Skullknight with the sword of actuation.

I don't believe I thought it through as much as yourself, but the basic gist as I believed was that either Devil forgemaster was going to become Dracula's vessel. but yes, originally it was supposed to be Hector. If Hector killed Isaac and became the vessel, Trevor would have stepped in and killed Hector/ Dracula. Hector and Julia never would have hooked up, perhaps the saddest ending of all.

One thing though, if SG can stop time - during the fight with him he uses 'time advance' and 'time reverse' - is his stopping time limited to that zone of the machine tower i.e. where the battle happens, or is he actually stopping time itself? I thought it was the former, because technically, wouldn't the act of stopping time altogether change events? Similarly in areas where you have to stop time with Hector to access the Eneomaos machine tower, for example. (on this note, I always thought SG was Eneomaos, unless it has some other significance, perhaps to the historical figure Oenomaus )

Check this excerpt from Castlevania Wikia:
Zead appears as a priest, who investigates the source of the curse that runs through Europe. Hector encounters him a few times, one of which reveals that he seems to have a grudge against Saint Germain. Eventually, although not directly stated, Zead manages to lock Saint Germain at the top of the clock tower in the Eneomaos Machine Tower, where he planned to make Hector and Saint Germain kill each other; however, neither of them die and they are released from said place. It is here where Hector questions his ideals of revenge towards Isaac, thereby preventing him from becoming the next host for Lord Dracula.

Say SG can manipulate time, couldn't he just use time reverse and go back to before he was imprisoned? If he was truly imprisoned then maybe he allowed himself to be in order for Hector to question his motives for revenge. Perhaps he foresaw this to be an outcome whereby Hector could be spared. Because in all likeliness, if SG never interfered then Hector may have just killed Isaac. Interesting...

[theplottwist]

You point out some interesting things I forgot to mention, and one that I overlooked. I'll adress them in order. Just a reminder: ALL of this comes from nowhere but MY understanding of what is happening on the game!

Now for the points:

I don't believe I thought it through as much as yourself, but the basic gist as I believed was that either Devil forgemaster was going to become Dracula's vessel. but yes, originally it was supposed to be Hector. If Hector killed Isaac and became the vessel, Trevor would have stepped in and killed Hector/ Dracula. Hector and Julia never would have hooked up, perhaps the saddest ending of all.

You see, if Germain went back in time to stop Hector, the problem on his future concerns Death's actions towards Hector. His future is endangered by Dracula, who got ressurrected, and here is the thing: If Trevor stepped in to fight and defeat Dracula-possessed Hector, why is Germain here? Well... He's here because Trevor also failed, then. It's possible that Death even surprise attacks Trevor at that moment when he's leaving the cavern, just before snatching Hector away. We do see in-game that Trevor can be surprised to devastating effects, when Isaac defeats him with a mere dagger (GRANTED! It's ridiculous! But still, surprise attack shenanigans).

One thing though, if SG can stop time - during the fight with him he uses 'time advance' and 'time reverse' - is his stopping time limited to the zone of clock tower i.e. where the battle happens, or is he actually stopping time itself? I thought it was the former, because technically, wouldn't the act of stopping time altogether change events? Similarly in areas where you have to stop time with Hector to access the Eneomaos machine tower, for example. (on this note, I always thought SG was Eneomaos, unless it has some other significance, perhaps to the historical figure Oenomaus )

I though about addressing Time Reverse and Time Advance (SPECIALLY Time Reverse, since it actually extends the fight, which would make Hector even more late.), but I think it'd be kinda push it a little, mixing gameplay elements too much with the story (Gameplay and Story Segregation).
So, I actually found something that kinda shows how his power works while trapped on the tower: When in Germain's boss fight, his powers affect only him. Notice how "Time Reverse" makes only his own HP go back up, instead of making both his and Hector's HP restore themselves, and how Time Advance makes only a vine grow faster, instead of actually making everything move faster? On the cutscene before, he does mention that he's partially freed from the fetters of time. So that must mean that he can still use his powers , but only in a much smaller scale, locally, only to selectivelly affect himself (which would explain why the clock moves, and why "Time Stop" works to stop Hector"). So that means that he's unable to actually travel through time, only speed or reverse time concerning himself, as it would be advantageous only to himself, inside that barrier.

Check this excerpt from Castlevania Wikia:

Well, the excerpt IS based on opinion lol but this part is of interest:

where he planned to make Hector and Saint Germain kill each other; however, neither of them die and they are released from said place.

And it might even make sense! But Death's plan was still a desperate gamble: He though that making Germain physical would allow for Hector to kill him, but didn't take into account that it actually allowed for Germain to act upon reality and change fate. Since this was something completelly new, Death had no way of knowing the outcome until the battle was over. Hector having a naturally good heart helps matters, and Death expected the "vengeance" factor to actually surpass this. But Death didn't knew that Hector was spying on them on the woods, and lets be honest: That scene makes it quite clear that Germain is FAR less dangerous than Zead. This might have helped tipping Hector's consideration towards Germain.

I like to think that the barrier trap was a Schrodinger's Trap of sorts. Inside it, fate became uncertain exactly because Germain was physical. When the battle ended, the barrier unmade itself because Fate had already decided in favor of Germain.

But just another reminder: Nowhere it says that Death expected Hector to kill Germain in the game! In fact, in the cutscene in Aiolon Ruins, Death actually asks Hector if he met Germain in the clocktower. Why would he ask if he knew that Hector would meet him there? He could be playing dumb, of course, but then there is something else: Death gets visibly jittery when Hector says that Germain plans to not interfere anymore. Why would this be, if the whole plan was all about making Germain not interfere? In this case he ACTUALLY got what he wanted, why is he so nervous? This leads me to think that making Hector kill Germain (and consequently get him to not interfere anymore) was not the plan at all. In fact, Death's question about the clocktower makes me believe that Death didn't even knew that Hector would actually go through the barrier-trap on the clocktower. He trapped Germain there, MAYBE, for himself to get his hands on later, and Hector getting there was not in the plan.

It is here where Hector questions his ideals of revenge towards Isaac, thereby preventing him from becoming the next host for Lord Dracula.

Well, I honestly don't think so, because at the end of the game, where he's just about to kill Isaac, it's Julia that he sees on his mind. Germain's quote about him not being alone is meant for Julia. Germain is aware (now) that Julia is the only one able to make Hector question his revenge, and the only way for Hector to actually receive Julia's speech at Dracula's Castle entrance is if he arrives too late on Aiolon Ruins.

It's not Germain making him question his revenge, it's Julia.

(I think I should add this to the essay at the top, because the whole thing just makes even more sense [to me] now)

Say SG can manipulate time, couldn't he just use time reverse and go back to before he was imprisoned? If he was truly imprisoned then maybe he allowed himself to be in order for Hector to question his motives for revenge. Perhaps he foresaw this to be an outcome whereby Hector could be spared. Because in all likeliness, if SG never interfered then Hector may have just killed Isaac. Interesting...

I don't know exactly what I should answer for the whole thing BUT for the "time reverse" thing I do:

Germain, as I stated above, has his powers limited here, and limited to himself. The Trap is set by Death to disable Germain from actually being able to reverse ALL with him. Thus, I think that if he were to reverse time trying to escape, he'd only be able to do it to the extent of the moment he got trapped.

Besides, we see on the battle that his time manipulation powers can only be applied to certain aspects! He can only make that vine move fast, and can only make his health go back in time. Maybe making HIMSELF go back so much is impossible for him at the moment.

"But he can stop time and Hector with it!"

Yeah, and he does so inefficiently, considering that the "time stopping" fails just before the attack that is meant to hit Hector is actually ready to strike, making me believe that Germain's time powers are indeed very limited inside this barrier. One more evidence is that Germain restores his health only once, and the second time he's about to die, he gives up on the battle. Why? Because he can't make his health go back in time again, otherwise he would fight until Hector gave up.

[Lelygax]

I like to think that the barrier trap was a Schrodinger's Trap of sorts. Inside it, fate became uncertain exactly because Germain was physical. When the battle ended, the barrier unmade itself because Fate had already decided in favor of Germain.

Giving my idea, but maybe this barrier was meant to trap him inside until the battle ended, since he choose to give up and Hector agreed to let him go (a thing that Zead wasn't counting on) the barrier was undone.

But just another reminder: Nowhere it says that Death expected Hector to kill Germain in the game! In fact, in the cutscene in Aiolon Ruins, Death actually asks Hector if he met Germain in the clocktower. Why would he ask if he knew that Hector would meet him there? He could be playing dumb, of course, but then there is something else: Death gets visibly jittery when Hector says that Germain plans to not interfere anymore. Why would this be, if the whole plan was all about making Germain not interfere? In this case he ACTUALLY got what he wanted, why is he so nervous? This leads me to think that making Hector kill Germain (and consequently get him to not interfere anymore) was not the plan at all. In fact, Death's question about the clocktower makes me believe that Death didn't even knew that Hector would actually go through the barrier-trap on the clocktower. He trapped Germain there, MAYBE, for himself to get his hands on later, and Hector getting there was not in the plan.

He knew Germain well, if he still lives and choose to not interfere, things were pending to Germain side.

I don't know exactly what I should answer for the whole thing BUT for the "time reverse" thing I do:

Germain, as I stated above, has his powers limited here, and limited to himself. The Trap is set by Death to disable Germain from actually being able to reverse ALL with him. Thus, I think that if he were to reverse time trying to escape, he'd only be able to do it to the extent of the moment he got trapped.

Besides, we see on the battle that his time manipulation powers can only be applied to certain aspects! He can only make that vine move fast, and can only make his health go back in time. Maybe making HIMSELF go back so much is impossible for him at the moment.

"But he can stop time and Hector with it!"

Yeah, and he does so inefficiently, considering that the "time stopping" fails just before the attack that is meant to hit Hector is actually ready to strike, making me believe that Germain's time powers are indeed very limited inside this barrier. One more evidence is that Germain restores his health only once, and the second time he's about to die, he gives up on the battle. Why? Because he can't make his health go back in time again, otherwise he would fight until Hector gave up.

I think that he could only use his powers inside this barrier to change time, not space, not able to move. So he couldn't rewind to "before the barrier" because it would be the same, he from before entering the barrier but in the same place inside the barrier.

Only a idea, I didnt played that game too much.

[zangetsu468]

@plottwist

Good points, I haven't played CoD in a long time so thanks for the reminder in the finer details.

The point about Julia, I agree with. Due to Julia reminding Hector of Rosalie, this may have always been destined and perhaps Isaac was more inclined to eventually be the vessel. The excerpt was from Castlevania wikia, and it seems strange that they've overlooked this.

Was SG actually imprisoned by Death? This is one detail I wasn't 100% clear on. I never recalled it to be explicitly stated, I might have to go back and give CoD a bash at some point.

You may be right about time reverse/ advance, but if it only affected him then how come a vine grows? I would say that rather his power is localised to a dedicated location (perhaps as Lelygax has suggested, within the confines of the barrier) but time itself (as in all existence) doesn't stop.

[theplottwist]

@plottwist

Good points, I haven't played CoD in a long time so thanks for the reminder in the finer details.

The point about Julia, I agree with. Due to Julia reminding Hector of Rosalie, this may have always been destined and perhaps Isaac was more inclined to eventually be the vessel. The excerpt was from Castlevania wikia, and it seems strange that they've overlooked this.

Was SG actually imprisoned by Death? This is one detail I wasn't 100% clear on. I never recalled it to be explicitly stated, I might have to go back and give CoD a bash at some point.

You may be right about time reverse/ advance, but if it only affected him then how come a vine grows? I would say that rather his power is localised to a dedicated location (perhaps as Lelygax has suggested, within the confines of the barrier) but time itself (as in all existence) doesn't stop.

About SG being imprisoned by Death, he indeed was. He even wonders how could Hector get inside the barrier. He's apparently not aware that the barrier makes him physical, he only thinks that it prevents him from moving around. Hector can get inside the barrier because he's already physical and can't travel through time. SG, in other hand, can't escape the barrier from inside by being made physical AND having his time manipulation removed. SG moves through time, and for this it's required that everything moves with him. If he can't move everything with him, then he can't move through time itself.

About time reverse and advance, that's exactly what I meant, but I made a poor choice of words.

[theANdROId]

This thread has been supremely interesting to read!  Thanks to all for your in depth thoughts and ideas here!

Makes me wish even more there had been some sort of play mode with SG!

[theplottwist]

My response to the holes you dudes found on the essay, which I already answered, but since the responses are broken in pieces, I made it all in one text; I wanted to post it on the essay itself, but the character limit wouldn't allow. So here it is, condensed in a nice orderly fashion:

(click to show/hide)

My Response to Holes in the Logic:

Based on the questions from Lelygax, Shinobi, VladCT and Zangetsu468, and also aggregating some of their own logic, which strengthens the hypothesis.


Hole 1: "If Germain has been stripped from his powers, why is he able to use powers such as Time Reverse/Advance/Stop?"

The fact is that he has been stripped from time's rules for space when using his powers and NOT actually the powers themselves ("In this space I may be partially free from the fetters of time.").

The rule for Germain's powers are that, apparently, when Germain uses his powers, he moves through time. For this to happen, space has to change accordingly. He can't do anything without making the whole of reality move accordingly.

For instance, if Saint Germain is to move back 2 minutes in time, EVERYTHING around him will also do so and end up looking as they were 2 minutes ago.

However, inside this barrier, even though his powers still work, they can't manipulate space itself, and are restricted to focal points: Germain can affect localized parts with his powers.

That's why when using Time Reverse, only his HP goes up as opposed to having both his and Hectors HP going up. This is why when using Time Advance, only a vine grows up, as opposed to making everything move fast accordingly. That's why Time Stop only works briefly, since Germain has lost the power to affect space accordingly.

However, as we see when Germain gives up after being defeated, he probably can't keep using his powers. If he could, he'd simply use Time Reverse to recover lost energy until Hector couldn't fight anymore from pure fatigue.


Hole 2: "Germain is the reason why Hector ponders battling Isaac"

This is wrong. Germain is only the one who knows the true reason why Hector will question his vengeance. His hint comes from his post-boss battle speech "Walk the path that is meant for you, without fear. For you are not alone". With this he's hinting at Julia, the TRUE reason why Hector will stop barely seconds before killing Isaac.

He can't outright say it to Hector because this would be overstepping his bounds.

With this, Germain's role seems to be useless, until you consider the hypothesis above, that his job is to make Hector late. If he indeed is meant to make Hector late, then Hector successfully meets Julia at Dracula's Castle, where she can give him the final speech that he'll remember just before killing Isaac.


Hole 3: "Death made the trap in Eneomaos Machine Tower to make Hector kill Saint Germain"

Nowhere it says that Death expected Hector to kill Germain in the game! In fact, in the cutscene in Aiolon Ruins, Death actually asks Hector if he met Germain in the clocktower. Why would he ask if he knew that Hector would meet him there? He could be playing dumb, of course, but then there is something else: Death gets visibly jittery when Hector says that Germain plans to not interfere anymore. Why would this be, if the whole plan was all about making Germain not interfere? In this case he ACTUALLY got what he wanted, why is he so nervous? This leads me to think that making Hector kill Germain (and consequently get him to not interfere anymore) was not the plan at all. In fact, Death's question about the clocktower makes me believe that Death didn't even knew that Hector would actually go through the barrier-trap on the clocktower.

He trapped Germain there for himself to get his hands on later, and Hector getting there was not part of the plan. I'll explain why:

In the forest, we see that Death is unable to even touch Germain when they have their brief fight. Germain effortlessly escapes every single lunge from Death. Then, after Germain is gone, Death says "No one escapes from me". Death is thinking about himself getting his hands on St. Germain, and that's why he needs a trap that makes him physical. He can't touch Germain now, but he will with the trap's power.

Furthermore: Death is aware of Fate and how things must go. If he knew that making the trap would make Hector fight Germain, and thus be late, this would contradict the fact that he and Germain are not allowed to directly mess with Fate. Death knows that Germain can't overstep his bounds through "saying something unsuitable", and then proceeds into making Germain physical on purpose just so Hector can interact with him physically, which would allow Germain to legitimatelly interfere with Fate, something that he's trying to stop Germain from doing??? Makes no sense, and I can only think that the explanation is: Death wanted to make Germain physical so he himself could get hid of him AFTER Hector has succumbed to the Curse.

"But.... Wouldn't Death know that Hector is at the tower?? I don't buy your bullshit!"

Well, to put it simply... No. Death is not omnipresent, and is not omniscient. Death knows that he must meet Hector at certain spots on his quest to give him guidance (Like when he's conveniently waiting for Hector at the Mortvia Aqueduct) but what is he doing in the meantime when he's not besides Hector? Doing his preparations to bring Dracula back, of course! He can also be escaping Saint Germain, and he can ALSO be checking the events around to see if they all are happening according to Fate.

CLEAR evidence that Death doesn't know everything about Hector is that Hector gets to spy on him and Germain's scuffle at the forest, and is completelly oblivious of it. If he knew, he'd not simply stand there and have a clear psycho moment against Germain in front of Hector. He's avoiding to meet Germain in front of Hector, as seen, again, at the Mortvia Aqueduct, where he knows when Germain is about to appear, and promptly wanders off.

So no, Death doesn't know 100% where Hector is going to be at all times. He only knows when to tell Hector where Isaac is, and that's it. That's how he trapped Germain at the Tower without knowing that Germain would meet Hector there.


Hole 4: "Death's freakout was not because Hector met Germain, but because he knows that Germain is a rascal, and that if he refrained from interfering, something is up"

And, in fact, this is really it. Death is freaking out because Hector met Germain. This is reason alone to be nervous. Germain's regards are the nail in the Death's coffin: Death now must access the situation with fate, that Germain changed by making Hector late to get to the next "checkpoint" in the timeline.