Topic: Castlevania: Symphony of the night HACKED! I bet you thought I had quit? ;)

[uzo]

He is saying to encourage the use of all your abilities. That is encouraging creative gameplay that requires the user to use all of his abilities to overcome the obstacle, which is what strategy is all about. I don't see any irony.

Irony is you talking about strategy, and then punishing the player for using abilities that are strategically beneficial.

[Claimh Solais]

Yeah, Esco, I'll have to agree with Uzo on that one. Punishing the player for the use of abilities is a bit... lame.

[Esco]

Yeah, Esco, I'll have to agree with Uzo on that one. Punishing the player for the use of abilities is a bit... lame.

He is saying to encourage the use of all your abilities. That is encouraging creative gameplay that requires the user to use all of his abilities to overcome the obstacle, which is what strategy is all about. I don't see any irony.

Irony is you talking about strategy, and then punishing the player for using abilities that are strategically beneficial.

What's worse, is I know other people on here who will also agree with what you just said, and think I am just talking crazy with that statement. The irony of it all just kills me. But it's all good, and you are all entitled to your opinions.

I guess instead I should just give them unlimited hearts, lives and hp then, huh? Since a limit apparently encourages a player to dumb down his/her strategy, rather than encouraging them to improve. Even though spamming subs and crashes could totally remove the necessity of a strategy in the first place.

Also there is no penalty: using 20 hearts (more than enough) results in you getting +4  max hearts bonus instead of +5 hearts bonus. OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, how awful!  And they are in fact BONUSES, meaning they must be earned. Your base starting stats are in fact how the game is balanced out and that is WITHOUT any bonuses at all. The bonus stats just give you a little more of an edge, and make the game easier. Hence why they are so small (for the max amount: +10 hp = one more hit, +5 hearts is NOTHING, and +10 MP is very small as well)

[Claimh Solais]

I guess instead I should just give them unlimited hearts then, huh?  Since a limit apparently encourages a player to dumb down his/her strategy. Even though spamming subs and crashes could totally remove the necessity of a strategy in the first place.

Sorry but if you both feel this way, that is fine. But you are both wrong then, and need to learn a LOT more about game development.

Punishing for the use of item crashes is fine, but for subweapons in general is just unnecessary.

Not saying you should do it the way we are saying. It's your project and thus your decisions. I respect the decisions you make as well. I'll just speak up when I dislike something.

And uh... Uzo's programming his game in a far more complicated engine then you're using. At least, I assume, since he's using C++ as far as I know. You know. Just sayin'.

[Esco]

And uh... Uzo's programming his game in a far more complicated engine then you're using. At least, I assume, since he's using C++ as far as I know. You know. Just sayin'.

I fail to see how that relates to the fact that you both still need to learn a LOT more about game development; based on your responses.  You could both have a 100000 lines of code, and a flawless collision and movement engine. And still not know a thing about balancing, increasing fun factor, appealing to several demographics simultaneously, encouraging replay value, quality assurance, etc. And I am not about to get into a debate here about who has the bigger E-penis (which is what your last comment is basically geared towards, lol). 

You really should look at my source code and see for yourself what is involved in something like this; as should any other critics here. I do not honestly think you know how involved even this demo truly is, nor do most people. In fact, I only do because I have spent years hacking a game, and had several people better than myself who instructed me on quite a bit from a development stand point. Believe me when I say unless you have actually looked at the internal workings of AT LEAST a psx era game, you PROBABLY have very little insight as to how it actually works (although you may think you do; but trust me, they do a LOT of things the average people would never think of, including myself)

And I am not saying that to be rude in the least, but it is the truth. And if we are going to talk engine coding, I have over about 5000-10000 lines of code already.

[Claimh Solais]

Your argument works well against me. I know jack shit about coding. So you got me there.
However, from what I've seen (granted, these are just engine test videos), it looks almost exactly like the real thing.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying your project is in any way bad. I personally can get around the ranking system, since I never play for that (I'm no perfectionist in games. I don't quite have the time for that). I just speak my mind when I think others might find something frustrating.

I do not honestly think you know how involved even this demo truly is, nor do most people. In fact, I only do because I have spent years hacking a game, and had several people better than myself who instructed me on quite a bit from a development stand point.

I don't need to understand programming language to know this. In fact, I do know developing a game takes time and energy, and even the slightest change can be ridiculous work.

[Esco]

Your argument works well against me. I know jack shit about coding. So you got me there.
However, from what I've seen (granted, these are just engine test videos), it looks almost exactly like the real thing.

You still do not get it, just based on this response, and I do not mean that in a rude way. It is not about coding; any monkey can code if taught properly, and I am AT MOST a  beginner level of coder. It is more about understanding logic, thinking ahead, seeing the big picture, knowing how to make something fun, yet appealing, balancing, appealing to several styles of play, encouraging replay value, making something that is obviously fake look real enough to be believable and not seem absurd, making it flow smoothly, discouraging tedious things (like grinding for 99 hearts, lol), rewarding good performance, and motivating the player to improve on bad performance, etc. etc.... I could go on and on. But those are all things that you truly have to learn to comprehend to be successful in game development (NOT coding).

Coding is a pivotal piece yes, but without all the other skills (some of which I listed) a coder would be as useful as having an asshole right on your elbow. 

Anyway I intend to drop this subject now; if Uzo wants to continue it he can U2U me, and I will consider doing so (or I may just ignore it, lol) otherwise this is my last response to this subject.  And believe me when I say I do appreciate the positive feedback.


THE SOURCE CODE IS OUT, along with release A15 R1 of the Castlevania: SOTN Hacked engine!

All information and the download links can be found here; I will say up front that I did make one change that was inspired by markyjoe stating that grinding for hearts was tedious (and I agreed with him): http://sotnhacked.wordpress.com/2011/12/20/release-a14-r2-of-the-castlevania-sotn-hacked-engine-is-out/

[uzo]

And uh... Uzo's programming his game in a far more complicated engine then you're using. At least, I assume, since he's using C++ as far as I know. You know. Just sayin'.

Irrelevant. In terms of technical achievements, Esco has worked out a good engine with the tools he has, and that's all that matters. This isn't a technical issue with the game.

This whole discussion has to do with the fundamentals of game design. In this case, encouragement to explore and create strategy. Esco has created a perverse incentive in this; A trap which many inexperienced game designers fall into. However;

Normally I don't tend to respond to critiques at all

Since I'm sure Esco's ego will cause him continue on as he always does, it's a wasted effort to try and convince him. I said my piece in hopes he would take it to heart, and that's all I can do. I wouldn't get too invested in arguing with him, if I were you.

[Claimh Solais]

@Esco
Okay, yeah, I admit I was being a little... stupid with my arguments. I understand what you're saying now. My mistake. Forgive me for that.

@Uzo
Well, what I said about you, I kinda left out a lot of details of my argument. I tend to do that. But what-evs, like Esco said, let's just drop the whole thing. It's useless to go on about it. We all have different ideas of what should go down, but it's his project, so it's his say.

[Flame]

Daaaaamn, now that's some arrogance. Anyone who disagrees with your game mechanics must OBVIOUSLY know less about game design than you do?

[Esco]

Uh-huh.... so this is what I come back to when I check my thread. Ok then, easily solved:

Claimh: In no way were you being stupid; and there is no need to apologize, we are good. 

Uzo: you have been warned too many times now: congrats on being the first person on my IGNORE LIST. Even after I explain why things have been done in the manner I choose, and the basic logic behind them, you as usual don't know when to quit. And I am not going to continue wasting my time, or risk pissing Jorge off just to debate with you. Once I gave my response to MarkyJoe, the issue should honestly have been closed; otherwise it is just beating a dead horse.

Flame: mouth off again, or put words in my mouth like you just did, and you will join Uzo. Never did I state that anyone who disagrees with me knows less about game design then me. I actually thanked MarkyJoe for his feedback (a lot of which did NOT agree with what I said), and even implemented an idea based on it. My response to Uzo and Claimh however was based on what they stated to me; it was also none of your business so you should not have interjected in relation to it at all.

I also have made it a point on MANY occasions to say that I am a beginner level programmer AT MOST, and I will gladly admit that my artistic, and audio creating skills are AWFUL!  But just as I admit my weaknesses, I also will give myself credit for my strengths. With that being said although I am still overall a BEGINNER at game development, I have no doubt that I know more about GAME DEVELOPMENT than at least 95% of the people here do.  But the fact remains that anyone who is actually in the industry for even a minor game company and does this for a living could still run circles around me.  If you call that arrogance, than you really need to look up the definition of the term.

I am going to ASK at this point if you have a further issue to discuss to U2U me. If you continue to discuss this here in the thread, I will block you. I do not want this thread to turn into a mess, nor do I want to piss off any of the mods here.

[Flame]

Normally I don't tend to respond to critiques at all

I guess instead I should just give them unlimited hearts, lives and hp then, huh?

Sorry but if you both feel this way, that is fine. But you are both wrong then, and need to learn a LOT more about game development.

That is called arrogance. Why wouldn't you respond to critiques? they are a good thing. They give you insight as to what people playing your game think about it. And also gives you a chance to respond and address misconceptions and such, like you did already.

That second response was also pretty unnecessary too. He was just pointing out what he felt was an actual flaw, and you come back with "irony".

Never did I state that anyone who disagrees with me knows less about game design then me

Sorry but if you both feel this way, that is fine. But you are both wrong then, and need to learn a LOT more about game development.

Just outright stating they are wrong, and apparently need to learn about game design, when you yourself admit you are a beginner, is exactly that. And editing yoiur post to remove that line is rather late, since it was already quoted.

 I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth, I'm calling them as I see them.

it was also none of your business so you should not have interjected in relation to it at all.

It was posted publicly on a public topic in a public forum. Thats plenty my business if Im following the development of the game and see two people discussing back and forth game mechanics and such. if it wasn't my business, you two should have taken it to PM's.

Also, feel free to block me if you feel that you can't handle those criticisms.

That said, I will shut up now, since I don't want a prolonged argument. I have stated my personal view, and that's that. You are totally right that the thread does not need to become a mess.

EDIT:

You can babble all you want, but you were warned. Have a nice day.

It's OK. You don't have to see my messages for them to be there. Everyone else can still read them for their own food for thought.

Have a nice day too. 

[Esco]

A new post has been placed up on the blog: this one is about what is planned for Alucard. It is a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG post, but gives lots of details and insight into some of the tweaks that I made to Alucard in memhack, and what I now intend to do in GM. Feedback & suggestions these ideas is welcome (except the shield spells point... sorry), but if you want your post noticed or want a response, please put them on the blog as usual. 

http://sotnhacked.wordpress.com/2012/01/22/update-1-22-12-working-on-alucard-and-info-on-him/

[Sonic_Reaper]

poison drains HP repeatedly for a set time, but doesn’t effect atk and defense as much

Ugh.  This is dumb.  I've abhored the way that poison was handled post-SotN.  I mean, think about it.  If you're inflicted with poison and don't have an andidote, you receive free damage, which WILL eventually take a HUGE chunk of your life away, and there's nothing you can do about it.  There's no challenge here, it's just a cheap and annoying way to inflict damage.  If you have an antidote, you use it, and go along on your merry way.  Where is the challenge?  From a design perspective, I understand 100% why it was handled the way it was in SotN.  All of the status effects can be overcome in such as way as mandatory damage is almost never inflicted.  The original curse meant you could still use magic, or simply avoid the enemy until it wore off.  Stone, you could shake off with speedy reaction.  And poison added a little more challenge in the fact that your stats were halved, indirectly contributing to challenge none-the-less.  But "traditional" poison is just stupid.  It's just mandatory damage.  And I've always personally hated the way it was handled post-SotN.

That's just my 2 cents.  I don't know how others feel on the issue.

[Flame]

Mandatory damage should never be present in a game. It's cheap and only exists to cover up unchallenging gameplay.

But don't bother with big posts about it, Esco wont ever change it. He doesn't accept criticisms.