Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: BLOOD MONKEY on November 10, 2017, 08:44:17 AM
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Why is SotN the most complex of the metroidvanias available? I understand the three for the GBA being dumbed down a little, processing power is lacked and you only have 4 buttons to work with. But the 3 DSVanias are dumbed down as well? They hold your hand most of the way through and none of their equipment systems are as complex as Symphony's. The map systems are based around square shapes and big open areas, as opposed to the more contrasting layout of Symphony's. All the other games just seem more generic and less complex than Symphony, and I can't find a legitimate reason for it other than poor design.
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Well, SotN was the first of its kind in Castlevania history which is why it is so special amongst all other Metroidvania's to come after it. I think the reson why the others weren't as successful or memorable is because it got stale and they were running out of ideas. Remember IGA was cranking out a game a year almost because Konami told him so. So it doesn't surprise me that the think tank would have been compromised due to lack of time in between developments. Also inferior hardware is to blame as well, yet I still find CotM very enjoyable to this day, even though it is far more dumbed-down then any other Metroidvania in the series.
Re: SotN > any other series metroidvania
The term 'Metroidvania' only applies to a Castlevania game that plays like Metroid. This does not include games outside of the CV series. Unfortunately many people use the term incorrectly when talking about other Metroid-styled games that have nothing to do with Castlevania.
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Why is SotN the most complex of the metroidvanias available? I understand the three for the GBA being dumbed down a little, processing power is lacked and you only have 4 buttons to work with. But the 3 DSVanias are dumbed down as well? They hold your hand most of the way through and none of their equipment systems are as complex as Symphony's.
For one simple reason: Balance.
SotN's "gimmick" is the enormous amount of weapons. Dawn's gimmick is the enormous amounts of Souls. Ecclesia's gimmick is the amount of Glyphs (and you're dead wrong on this one because it's very close to SotN once you switch the word "Glyph" for "weapon").
SotN is not the "most complex". It simply gives you a lot of shit (many of which are almost duplicates or have little use before being discarded for better stuff) and cares little for balance, which is why Alucard can be made into a god relatively early in the game. Many choices != Good choices.
You said that the others don't have "complex equipment systems like SotN", and damn, I disagree so much. Soma and Shanoa's equipment systems come off as much more well-thought-out than Alucard, where you could basically slap anything on him in combination with anything else pretty much most of the time and he was still a murder machine. If you try to do that with Soma you risk being at a quite annoying disadvantage against some enemies, while in Ecclesia you risk dying over and over until you learn how certain glyphs work. That's not even getting to the Doppelganger soul, that allowed for multiple equip configurations, or the system for raising the power of certain attack elements that Ecclesia had.
Alucard didn't have souls to collect, didn't have glyphs, didn't have dual-item crashes or a very vast array of reusable magic attacks (not counting the Duplicator). Hell, SotN didn't even allow you to use consumables without having to equip them first. As I see it, SotN is hardly superior to the Metroidvanias coming after it on the gameplay/challenge aspect.
EDIT: I noticed now I'm coming off as a bit of a douche.
I'm not saying SotN is a bad game. It really is not. What I'm saying is that it's difficulty being all over the place is a result of the not-so-complex equipment system it has. You said you think it has the most complex system, and I'm pointing out that, to me, it really is not so complex. Just because it has a lot of stuff to collect and customize, doesn't mean it's actually "more intelligent" than the systems coming after it. While on SotN you'll get by just fine equipping basically anything together with anything, if you don't get how to balance yourself/make up for your strengths and weaknesses on the later games, difficulty can actually bite off your ass.
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Symphony of the Night is a magisterial game that has aged wonderful, but it's not perfect enough to disregard the rest of the series.
Why is SotN the most complex of the metroidvanias available?
Complex in what sense?
-CotM gameplay is more complex than SotN
-Aria's plot is more complex than SotN
-Ecclesia's stage design is more complex than SotN, even with the limited map sizes, but mostly because it has the Gylph gimmick
The map systems are based around square shapes and big open areas, as opposed to the more contrasting layout of Symphony's. All the other games just seem more generic and less complex than Symphony, and I can't find a legitimate reason for it other than poor design.
Harmony of Dissonance had a gorgeous level design, far from generic, check stuff like Cave of Skeletons, Castle Top Floor, the eerie alternate Clock Tower and the Sky Walkway, all of them have nice use of lightings, shadows and small details to compliment both sides of the castle.
The only DS game that I would call generic is Dawn of Sorrow, thanks to its cold and bland colour pallet, the only noteworthy area is the Lost Village, the rest of the game is pretty Zzz
...SotN cares little for balance, which is why Alucard can be made into a god relatively early in the game. ..
That is my only issue with SotN, holy water carries you pretty hard until you get the Shield Rod + Iron Shield combo, at that point you pretty much won the game.
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I describe Symphony as "lightning in a bottle." it was a perfect storm where they just threw everything into the pot. there are 2 things that make the game stand out: atmosphere and soundtrack
I feel if they had created a sequel 2 years after sotn was released, with all the same exact programmers and everything, then they would've produced a game that was truly superior.
Sometimes in life there is a window of opportunity to make special things happen, and when that window closes, it's almost impossible to recreate that magic. Therein lies the gift and the curse that is sotn
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@Plot on your point of balancing gear, I think that was more an issue with the number system than the equipment system. Check out SotN Hardtype, it aims to rectify and balance the damage system in favour of a truly difficult game.
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Opinions > logic & everything else
Sotn is in a sense the most aesthetically and musically "ornate" in my opinion.
For its time it was elegant, refined, and it was so different to any previous games that it stood out even more so than it would have being released in the context of today.
However, imo it's not the most complex in terms of play style. (Richter and Maria's play style are even more complex than Alucard) In one sense, I really love the game, in another, I know there are better Metroidvanias which also require more skill to defeat, have more challenging areas and bosses, more 'combos' and weapon/ magic combinations and the like. The only thing sotn had in that sense that other cv's didn't have was that you could "down+forward" attack with certain weapons.
To me, the prologue with Richter was one of the more dynamic parts of the game and I wonder whether the inclusion of 3 playable characters was ever initially an idea taken from the cancelled "Bloodletting" that would allow the player to swap between Alucard/ Richter/ Maria.
I also have to admit (and yes I'm one of those people) that the game feels more complete after having played the SS version. The additional Maria, ost tracks and the two castle areas makes it feel more complete.. Like it was missing just those tiny inclusions before.
Even so with the Castle, it is one of the better iterations but I don't believe it's the absolute best. My thoughts are kind of split here because although OOE is my favourite game and possibly my favourite overall design, I think Aria's castle takes it for me. If we're talking overall design it would be OOE (some of the most versatile and beautiful areas) or LoD. I'd have to say that POR's base castle is probably my least favourite although I like the game for other reasons.
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SotN had better graphics than any of its followers, and it had a far better soundtrack than anything to follow (yeah, even Lament of Innocence and Curse of Darkness). For some reason Michiru Yamane went all synth-heavy after SotN and the variety of musical styles and instrumentation just kinda went buh-bye, although her work continued to be amazing. SotN was the first of its kind in the series (sidenote: at least since Simon's Quest. Lots of fans at that point either hadn't played it or their minds had erased those traumatic memories out of self-preservation.) and all of its clones after that were handheld. Also, SotN had a decent amount of gameplay depth, between the sheer volume of equipable weapons, some hiding secrets like the Muramasa and Shield Rod. And there were the secret magic spells and familiars and wallmeat and new subweapons and Richter mode and Luck mode and Axearmor mode. The game had secrets up the wazoo.
...oh, and that upside-down castle that blew the collective mind of gamers at the time.
For the record, I've always thought Aria of Sorrow might be the better game, since it's balanced so well, has reasonably deep gameplay, has a nice emotional twist, and pushes the boundaries of its platform more than probably any other Castleroid SotN-clone Metroidvania.
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For the record, I've always thought Aria of Sorrow might be the better game, since it's balanced so well, has reasonably deep gameplay, has a nice emotional twist, and pushes the boundaries of its platform more than probably any other Castleroid SotN-clone Metroidvania.
This. AoS was the first CV game to include a gripping narrative which included suspense.
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This. AoS was the first CV game to include a gripping narrative which included suspense.
*Ahem*
(https://www.leviathyn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/castle.jpg)
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*Ahem*
(https://www.leviathyn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/castle.jpg)
atmospheric suspense != narrative suspense
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*Ahem*
(https://www.leviathyn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/castle.jpg)
only good games count
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For some reason Michiru Yamane went all synth-heavy after SotN and the variety of musical styles and instrumentation just kinda went buh-bye
That's not true
The only live instruments in Symphony of the Night were guitars and vocals, everything else was synths and midi programming and that has been the same up to Curse of Darkness.
Also Yamane never changed her "variety of musical styles", she still has that baroque/contemporary/prog rock/jazz influence.
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atmospheric suspense != narrative suspense
Actually I agree, but debate LoD did it better.
I rephrase, and limit my previous statement to 2d CV's.
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atmospheric suspense != narrative suspense
The 64 games absolutely had both. Arguably more so than any game in the franchise. Not to argue that the gameplay is stellar, but in terms of storytelling no other games in the series even come close. Maybe CoD.
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And Saturn SotN > Any other version of SotN
fite me.
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And Saturn SotN > Any other version of SotN
fite me.
Gladly
It looks terrible due to stretched graphics, the new pixel art is sub-par and doesn't match the rest of the game, and it is plagued by terrible slowdowns and graphical issues. the new areas add nothing to the game, and you have to go out of your way to access them. The only good things about the saturn version is the way it handles richter's slide kicking and the version of maria that was made for it.
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The 64 games absolutely had both. Arguably more so than any game in the franchise. Not to argue that the gameplay is stellar, but in terms of storytelling no other games in the series even come close. Maybe CoD.
what storytelling?
the belmont who isn't actually a belmont or the 12 year old child who apparently is allowed the same freedoms as an adult (maria at least had the logic of having been kidnapped and already IN the castle)?
the old hunter? charlie ain't got shit on julius
the female villain who wants to be cute forever? bloodlines already references bathory
unwilling vampire who does a sacrifice and magically comes back later in the good ending? albus did it better
the proud and bombastic titular villain who decided pretending to be a child and deal in stealthy maneuvers? don't even get me started, it's not in his nature, malus and everything about him can fuck off because that's not how cv dracula does things (it's a really good strategy, but it's not a dracula strategy)
rosa and renon are about the only decent things about that story
a fake dracula is pretty neat too, but considering they decided to go with gilles de rais of all people--a known torturer, rapist, and murderer of hundreds of children (IN A STORY WITH SMALL CHILDREN AS MAJOR CHARACTERS)--and decides to pawn the crime of pedocide off on actrise as if that somehow removes the associations of gilles de rais' name, i have to deduct some points because who the fuck thought that was in any way a good idea
lament had a better story, curse had a better story, aria had a better story, ecclesia had a better story, even lords1 had a better story
also "hey child protag, go kill the vampire made from a dude who'd cut open children and fuck the injury while watching them die slowly and painfully because that got him off more than natural orifices did"
seriously who actually thought having gilles de rais as an antag in a game where a main protag is a child was a good fucking idea--it's like having hitler as your bad guy, you either take it seriously and weave a complex narrative to address all the relevant issues in a mature fashion, or you go balls to the wall full ham and take the piss (see: wolfenstein), and 64 does neither of these; it just drops the name, pawns the (conveniently watered-down and paraphrased) crimes of that name off on another antag to give her substance, and thinks that splitup of backstory and motive is both a good idea and one that deludes that both those characters are fully-realized and developed as a result (spoiler, they aren't)
things like that are rampant in 64's plot--half-formed ideas and nonsensical decisions that make one wonder why they even chose this or that detail at all if they were just gonna toe around it the whole time
64's isn't bad, but the best in the entire series? i don't really see it, considering most of its plotpoints were either done better elsewhere in the series or weren't fleshed out as thematically well as they probably should have been
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My opinion is unpopular but I have spent more hours in the other Metroidvania CV games than SotN.
Do not get me wrong SotN is a masterpiece. It has the best level atmosphere. But the inverted castle is the think that I detest in that game.
Now I know that there will be flaming after that BUT in my opinion the 2 Castle think was MUCH better in Harmony of Dissonance. I wanted to see the same in SotN. I wanted the castle to be different and not just upside down.
Many people seem to forget the other metroidvanias like the DS ones even Circle of the Moon.
I love ALL Metroidvanias and I think that there should be new one each year for the rest of eternity!
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force-churning out games once a year is how you kill a franchise with crap games
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Probably. But it works with Pokemon so I dont mind Castlevania be as popular as pokemon.
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force-churning out games once a year is how you kill a franchise with crap games
oof*
*See; Call of Duty Franchise, Assassin's Creed, WWE, basically any sports franchise
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Probably. But it works with Pokemon so I dont mind Castlevania be as popular as pokemon.
and the pokemon series has become nothing more than literally the exact same thing every single game, with only a few noteworthy changes here and there
-kid leave home to become da porkymin master
-professor person gives them one for free
-kid goes on travel trip across entire continent
-oh noes there's an evil corporation team thing with theming who want [thing] you gotta stop them
-kid has their pets beat up gang lord boss' pets and somehow this make gang lord boss forget how to be a gang lord boss
-kid finds and enslaves one or more literal gods as more fighting pets
-kid beats rival kid a bunch
-kid beats the pets of five super fighter pet owners and becomes the pet fighting champeen of the world (and by world it's actually just that one region)
rinse and repeat, make tv series about newest game, have shitloads of toy and merch revenue, etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseum
i really don't want this kind of existence for cv, myself
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and the pokemon series has become nothing more than literally the exact same thing every single game, with only a few noteworthy changes here and there
-kid leave home to become da porkymin master
-professor person gives them one for free
-kid goes on travel trip across entire continent
-oh noes there's an evil corporation team thing with theming who want [thing] you gotta stop them
-kid has their pets beat up gang lord boss' pets and somehow this make gang lord boss forget how to be a gang lord boss
-kid finds and enslaves one or more literal gods as more fighting pets
-kid beats rival kid a bunch
-kid beats the pets of five super fighter pet owners and becomes the pet fighting champeen of the world (and by world it's actually just that one region)
rinse and repeat, make tv series about newest game, have shitloads of toy and merch revenue, etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseum
i really don't want this kind of existence for cv, myself
So we beat Dracula every time and it feels good. What is wrong about that?
The Castlevania franchise is now carried by the fans which is good but the Official franchise is dead.
There can be 100 more Castlevanias where you just go through a castle beat bosses and then defeat Dracula and STILL feels good.
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you want quantity
i prefer quality
also going through a castle and killing dracula doesn't even remotely compare to pokemon recycling the exact same story formula every single game, so please don't act like they are
i will abandon this franchise if it ever gets to that point
There can be 100 more Castlevanias where you just go through a castle beat bosses and then defeat Dracula and STILL feels good.
that you honestly believe this is true suggests that you don't understand how the industry works
100 more games? okay, over what timeframe?
one game a year for a hundred years? that's not gonna happen
two games a year for fifty years? still not gonna happen
three games a year for 33.3 years? getting more into plausible territory of how long a series can practically be expected to carry on, but still unlikely to happen
four games a year for twenty-five years? might happen, but the games are all gonna be garbage because that leaves three months of development time
five games a year for twenty years? see above
six games a year for 16.6 years? see above
seven games a year for 14.3 years? see above
eight games a year for twelve and a half years? see above
nine games a year for eleven years? see above
ten games a year for ten years? see above
and so on and so forth
i'm aware "100 more games" was just an example, but i'm making it a point of illustrating how that's not only all but unlikely to ever realistically happen, but how it also becomes worse and worse in quality the more you condense it to a more realistic timeframe
it's as i said before, you churn out a new game every year by forcing development to happen in that timeframe and you get garbage as a result
we see it happen with call of duty, we see it happen with assassin's creed, we see it with those shitty wrestling games, and we definitely have been seeing it for years with all the awful sports games EA vomits out every year like clockwork
frankly i don't give a shit how big a fan someone is of castlevania or how they think they'd have fun getting all those dozens and dozens of games they've wished for their whole fandom lives and those games were rushed in a few months and are broken and pitiful
they wouldn't have fun for very long and as dead and disgraced as the series has become it still doesn't deserve that kind of desecration done to its corpse--the pachislots are bad enough as it is
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you want quantity
i prefer quality
also going through a castle and killing dracula doesn't even remotely compare to pokemon recycling the exact same story formula every single game, so please don't act like they are
i will abandon this franchise if it ever gets to that point
that you honestly believe this is true suggests that you don't understand how the industry works
100 more games? okay, over what timeframe?
one game a year for a hundred years? that's not gonna happen
two games a year for fifty years? still not gonna happen
three games a year for 33.3 years? getting more into plausible territory of how long a series can practically be expected to carry on, but still unlikely to happen
four games a year for twenty-five years? might happen, but the games are all gonna be garbage because that leaves three months of development time
five games a year for twenty years? see above
six games a year for 16.6 years? see above
seven games a year for 14.3 years? see above
eight games a year for twelve and a half years? see above
nine games a year for eleven years? see above
ten games a year for ten years? see above
and so on and so forth
i'm aware "100 more games" was just an example, but i'm making it a point of illustrating how that's not only all but unlikely to ever realistically happen, but how it also becomes worse and worse in quality the more you condense it to a more realistic timeframe
it's as i said before, you churn out a new game every year by forcing development to happen in that timeframe and you get garbage as a result
we see it happen with call of duty, we see it happen with assassin's creed, we see it with those shitty wrestling games, and we definitely have been seeing it for years with all the awful sports games EA vomits out every year like clockwork
frankly i don't give a shit how big a fan someone is of castlevania or how they think they'd have fun getting all those dozens and dozens of games they've wished for their whole fandom lives and those games were rushed in a few months and are broken and pitiful
they wouldn't have fun for very long and as dead and disgraced as the series has become it still doesn't deserve that kind of desecration done to its corpse--the pachislots are bad enough as it is
Well in both ways you still "lose". The franchise is dead. IGA is trying to bring it back but Bloostained looks bad right now, at least for me.
The only good things that happened to Castlevania after it was abandoned by Konami are the two Lecarde Chronicles games and the upcoming Umbra of Sorrow.
We got 3 GBA Castlevania games, We got 3 DS Castlevania games, we got only one 3DS Castlevania game. I was hoping for 3 on the 3DS and 3 on the switch but this is just a dream now. Konami do not deserve our money. That is a fact.