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Offline uzo

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Re: My father is a racist
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2012, 12:34:03 PM »
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You're absolutely correct, except for one small detail. The son, and God, are supposedly one in the same being. He is an extension of God's being, not a separate God or entity in itself. In fact I believe Jesus never said to praise anyone but God, and somehow the church got everything ass backwards anyway.

Jesus pretty much spent his life leading people away from the organized church for the jewish community, breaking them free from the ruling body of church 'officials'. Those officials then orchestrated his arrest and death.

In a turn of ultimate irony; some people go and create an organized church based on Jesus.

Offline Arma

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Re: My father is a racist
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2012, 12:36:53 PM »
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It always bothers me as a hypocrisy of Orthodox Christianity (I don't know if it's in Catholic Christianity as well because I am only familiar with the Greek/Slavic Orthodox church) that the believers worship icons of saints. Let alone the very depiction of Christ as the son of God which clearly contradicts the Jewish belief in monotheism, the worship of saints is a clear form of polytheism derived from pagan patriarchal religions.
I mean, what is more clear that that? It's said clearly in the bible, second commandment: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image,you shall not bow down to them nor serve them." Islam explains this hypocrisy when the pagans ask the Muslims whether they may use their idols (rocks) as a tool of contact with Allah. The Muslims forbid that as shirh (polytheism).
Don't get me wrong, I think people should believe whatever they want to believe. But if you're playing religion, stop making up excuses when your religion contradicts itself.

Indeed, Jesus can be separated in two different figures or aspects, there's Jesus the real man and Jesus the son of God which is like a figure constructed by the passing of the centuries by people. Perhaps when someone used Jesus as an example they at the same time added their own beliefs and experiences mixing the facts and this would stay in the collective memory and/or the bible and probably it's because of this that the bible seems so contradictory. In a few words everyone knows; it's an old book written by many accordingly to the times they lived in.

With no intention to offend I think there are resemblances with Arthurian legends, to name an example. Nowadays it's impossible to know if King Arthur was a real man or just a figure created by the legends. Everytime someone would tell the story they added something, perhaps a trait, a place, a character that wasn't there before and the next person would do the same and so on. Perhaps in one version The Lady of the Lake was a sorceress and in other she was a fairy, creating many different version and events for the characters.

I think something similar happens in the case of the bible. But the bible is taken more seriously of course.

As for the icon worshipping and saints, I think that too is intimately related to people's needs. If praying to the figure of Jesus in the cross or a saint makes them feel satisfied at some degree then people don't really care what is contradictory because to pray at the church gives them peace, for them it can't be bad if it makes them feel like that.
Some people may feel like religion satisfy that inner need they have for a place of peace and reflexion and some others would find church is not neccesary in their lives for they may find other ways to fulfill those needs or don't care at all.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 12:39:24 PM by Arma »

Offline Abnormal Freak

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Re: My father is a racist
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2012, 05:17:59 PM »
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The son, and God, are supposedly one in the same being. He is an extension of God's being, not a separate God or entity in itself.

Different but the same. What that means entirely, I'm unsure, but the Trinity doctrine teaches that there are three persons of the same being; distinct from each other and yet one in unity.

Each person is considered wholly God, not just a fragment of God, and each has their own role: the Father is appointed the head, the Son the mediator between God and man (his actions on the cross creating a way for salvation), and the Holy Spirit the convictor of sins who leads people to the knowledge that they must be saved. They work together, forever in love and unity, and are each fully God with distinctive functions and yet of the same essence.

So, it's easy to understand why people see that as being three Gods, but Christian doctrine teaches that there is only one God and that the Trinity does not conflict with monotheism.

And according to Scripture, Jesus himself claimed to be God: "before Abraham was [born; came into being], I am" (John 8:58, alluding to God's statement "I AM THAT I AM" in Exodus 3:14, a statement proclaiming his timelessness; when "LORD" is in English Bibles in all capital letters, it's a translation of a Hebrew word meaning "to be" or "He is," which comes from the same root as "I am"); and "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). In both instances, Jews picked up stones to kill him, because they understood the theistic implications of these statements.

John of course was a disciple of Christ, one of the twelve and an apostle, and he makes the case for Jesus' deity more than the other gospel writers, although in the epistles, Peter, Paul, and unknown authors of other letters make the case for him being God as well. Considering Peter was also one of the twelve and was with Christ all his earthly ministry, that's two such people who explicitly claim in their writings that Jesus is God. (II Peter 1:1–3, "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.")



As for racism, can't say I've ever experienced it in my family, not even from my extended family. For the most part we're all conservative Christians, and even those who aren't are good people (...for the most part). It's sad to me to hear about others' supposed Christian families who are intolerant and bigoted and unloving and so forth. That's not what Christianity teaches. At all.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 05:26:06 PM by Abnormal Freak »
Oh yeah, and also:
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Offline uzo

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Re: My father is a racist
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2012, 08:21:21 PM »
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Very well put.

Most people seem to use Christianity as a crutch to support their terrible actions, or just go through the motions without ever actually taking any of the teachings into account. If you don't really even try to live by it, why bother going to church every week? It seems more like a status symbol, or an obligated public image thing.

Bigoted Christians are all the rage where I hail from. Well, I suppose just bigotry in itself is, and it then leaches into all other aspects of life.

Offline Opium

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Re: My father is a racist
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2012, 10:20:57 PM »
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You never say what they don't tolerate about you, just that they don't tolerate you. What is it about you they don't tolerate?

I did that on purpose because I didn't think it was important.  They don't like me because I don't believe in god and I don't discriminate against gays and racial minorities.  Basically, I don't hate people so that's reason to hate me.  I'm quite liberal while they're my polar opposite.  Plus, I think they resent me on a deeper level because of alcoholism.  They are all raging alcoholics - I mean so bad that they would drink mouthwash.  I hate booze - always have and always will.  I'm the only one in the entire family that never became a drunk.  I tried it when I was a teen, decided it was gross, and left it alone.  The reason they got all religious is through a 12-step alcoholics recovery group.  So now they're what you call dry-drunks - sober alcoholics who are very bitter about the world.  So basically, I think the reason they hate me the most is because I'm not miserable like them.

Not sure if you've read any of my rants about alcohol or religion, but I do have opinions about both of those things and now you know why.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 10:25:48 PM by Opium »

Offline uzo

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Re: My father is a racist
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2012, 10:26:51 PM »
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And here I thought you were going to say you came out of the closet and they disowned you, since you were being all dodgy with it.

I'm with you on the booze thing. I rarely ever drink. It's so unproductive.

Offline Mooning Freddy

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Re: My father is a racist
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2012, 10:32:34 PM »
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Freak, that just further intensifies the controversy about the figure of Jesus. A man in the flesh cannot be God, I'm not saying you may not believe in that, it just contradicts the Jewish belief in God as an abstract being. And since after all, Jesus was a Jew, and furthermore, a faithful Jew, I can hardly imagine a sane Jew running around Judea, trying to convince people he is (a) god. No Jew would believe him.

On the other hand, remember Jesus lived in a world reigned by Hellenistic religion. The Greeks and Romans, who believed that Gods are just like humans, but much more powerful, believed the gods may have children with humans. Makes much more sense, doesn't it? So I believe it's only logical for early Christians to claim their leader was the son of God, rather than them claiming he was a Jew (a weak and humiliated nation) so believers in the Hellenistic faith would convert to Christianity. I am inclined to believe in that.
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Offline Opium

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Re: My father is a racist
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2012, 10:38:36 PM »
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So I believe it's only logical for early Christians to claim their leader was the son of God, rather than them claiming he was a Jew (a weak and humiliated nation) so believers in the Hellenistic faith would convert to Christianity. I am inclined to believe in that.

Any sentence that mentions logic and religious beliefs at the same time just makes my brain melt.

Offline TheouAegis

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Re: My father is a racist
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2012, 10:50:17 PM »
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Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit could all be one in the same in the same way a creature that dwells within the 4th, 5th, or higher dimensions would appear to be multiple creatures in the 3rd dimension. It's easy to visualize:

Assume a piece of paper is a 2D world. Hold it in front of you. Look around it. You are in the 3rd dimension, so you can see all aspects of the paper, but the denizens of the paper (yes, little creatures are living in that paper!) only perceive the one surface on their 2D world. They look off into the horizon and see a simple point amidst the backdrop of a single line. That is their world. Wet the paper and punch your fingers through it in such a way that you make 5 holes in the paper. Witnessing denizens of Papyria will see five 2D versions of your fingers, even though in reality your fingers are 3D, because in the paper, the inhabitants can only perceive their 2D universe, not your 3D one. So in a way, it's possible God is really a 4th or higher dimensional being and Jesus was God giving humans the finger.
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Re: My father is a racist
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2012, 01:46:37 AM »
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Originally the holy trinity was never the Father, the son and the holy ghost. It was the Father, the Son and the Mother. It makes much more sense in that regard as it properly reflects the holy trinity (family). Holy ghost? Seriously you church guys?? The church has a thing against women as in they fear a woman's natural power so they did many things to try an eliminate women from any form of status in religion and civilization in general, including eliminating the mother god which is why we only know the Father God; Jehovah. I know him as 'Om' and the mother god as 'Azna'. While there is a singular Godhead, it has both aspects (Male and Female). After all if Jehova was the blueprint for man then there had to be a female aspect in order to create women. Makes much more sense then a woman coming from Adam's rib which makes no sense at all  :P. Organized Religion is probably the biggest sexist on the planet when it comes to women and women's rights and I loath it. Everyday on the news either radio or TV there is a woman or women being discriminated against by their own so-called faith. It's stupid, sickening, disgraceful and I can't wait for the day when they all come tumbling down due to their own big fat egos.
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Offline Abnormal Freak

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Re: My father is a racist
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2012, 02:23:19 AM »
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Freak, that just further intensifies the controversy about the figure of Jesus. A man in the flesh cannot be God, I'm not saying you may not believe in that, it just contradicts the Jewish belief in God as an abstract being. And since after all, Jesus was a Jew, and furthermore, a faithful Jew, I can hardly imagine a sane Jew running around Judea, trying to convince people he is (a) god. No Jew would believe him.

Well, the thing is, Jesus was not flesh until he came to the earth as an infant through Mary. Before that, I suppose he would have been spirit, and Scripture mentions him remaining in the flesh after resurrection.

He was indeed a faithful Jew, well-versed in Scripture and the culture, and unfortunately a lot of Christians ignore or simply don't know this, despite him being a rabbi with faithful talmidim. Many would try to get rid of the notion that Jesus was a religious Jew, even though his teachings as recorded in Scripture are so centric on Jewish philosophies and practices. He came to fulfill prophecy and further the faith, not do away with it.

Jesus didn't go around telling people that he was God, though. If I recall, those are the only two instances where he claimed such out in the open. He was asked questions, and gave honest answers. He would actually dissuade others from revealing who he was. And certainly he knew that proclaiming to be God would get him killed, which is why he was so careful on the matter as he knew he was not to die until the appointed time.

Originally the holy trinity was never the Father, the son and the holy ghost. It was the Father, the Son and the Mother. It makes much more sense in that regard as it properly reflects the holy trinity (family). Holy ghost? Seriously you church guys?? The church has a thing against women as in they fear a woman's natural power so they did many things to try an eliminate women from any form of status in religion and civilization in general, including eliminating the mother god which is why we only know the Father God; Jehovah. I know him as 'Om' and the mother god as 'Azna'. While there is a singular Godhead, it has both aspects (Male and Female). After all if Jehova was the blueprint for man then there had to be a female aspect in order to create women. Makes much more sense then a woman coming from Adam's rib which makes no sense at all  :P. Organized Religion is probably the biggest sexist on the planet when it comes to women and women's rights and I loath it. Everyday on the news either radio or TV there is a woman or women being discriminated against by their own so-called faith. It's stupid, sickening, disgraceful and I can't wait for the day when they all come tumbling down due to their own big fat egos.

To me, this just implies physical (that is, human-like) characteristics of God, which I think is a wrong idea of man being made in the likeness of God. Saying, "We have male and female, thus there must be a Male and Female God" doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. And when you mention the Trinity originally referring to a Father, Mother, and Son Deity, I assume you're speaking about some non-biblical trinity belief system separate from Judeo-Christianity rather than something that was altered in Judeo-Christianity over time.

The Holy Spirit is mentioned as the Helper (John 14:16–17). This being is mentioned as different from the Father. "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." A believer in Christ thus receives the Spirit and is reconciled with God (the Father). If there's a Mother God in addition to the Father and Son, then it's no longer a Trinity since there's now Spirit, unless the Mother is the Spirit and she is the one with whom Jesus will baptize believers along with fire (Luke 3:16) upon repentance and acceptance of Christ. But there is no Mother God in Christian teaching.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 02:31:24 AM by Abnormal Freak »
Oh yeah, and also:
meat

Soda as well.

Offline Vampire Killer

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Re: My father is a racist
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2012, 02:41:35 AM »
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Wow, atheist circle jerk going on in here :-\
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Offline VladCT

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Re: My father is a racist
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2012, 02:59:57 AM »
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I love how a topic about the racism of one's family member/s suddenly turns into a religious debate. :P
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Re: My father is a racist
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2012, 04:39:54 AM »
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I can't remember the OP but... didn't he say something about religion... or was it someone else that brought it up as being the reason?

Anyway, who cares if he's racist. As long as he doesn't "do" anything, he's fine by me. You're free to hate anything and anyone you want, but you better not be doing important shit based on it.

Secondly, I don't think religion causes anything. It, I believe, is more of an outlet for those who already think it, and use it as a reason to do so.

Offline Arma

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Re: My father is a racist
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2012, 05:35:34 AM »
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I love how a topic about the racism of one's family member/s suddenly turns into a religious debate. :P

It was just a couple of post were it was mentioned how their families take on religion among other things and then all went upside down. That happens a lot around here though :p

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