Topic: Castlevania: Lords of Shadow - Mirror of Fate 3DS (Discussion Thread)

[Redgrave]

When someone mentions "deep combat", what do they mean? More variety in combos/chained movies? IMO, a good combo should be able to dispatch MOST enemies.

Deep combat in a hack n' slash game it not just about button mashing.You have to find the the pros and cons of each enemy just like in LoS.The normal enemies such as the lycans,vampires and zombies are tough in the game despite being a normal enemy.In mirror of fate,the player on gamespot said that you need to find the enemies weaknesses to defeat them and surprised that enemies such as the skeletons are also tough.

[e105beta]

Well that's goodnews about the frame rate, but what about the supposedly clunky controls

[DragonSlayr81]

Deep combat in a hack n' slash game it not just about button mashing.You have to find the the pros and cons of each enemy just like in LoS.The normal enemies such as the lycans,vampires and zombies are tough in the game despite being a normal enemy.In mirror of fate,the player on gamespot said that you need to find the enemies weaknesses to defeat them and surprised that enemies such as the skeletons are also tough.

You mean, like OoE?

[Redgrave]

Never played Order of ecclesia sorry.
But as i said, i really like how they implement that deep combat in a hack n' slash game.

[RichterB]

It doesn't seem like this game is going to use 3D like I expected it to, where backgrounds give the illusion of turning corners like in Klonoa or Megaman X8. That seems a shame. Though, the combo stuff is already enough to turn me off pretty bad. I checked, and a Bone Pillar in IV takes three hits with a full-strength whip, an average skeleton takes one. What are we really gaining except "flash" with all these crazy combos? Take a step back. Let's just put out a rational and theoretical statement: If Mario had to stomp every Goomba twenty times to flatten them, or it took a dozen fire flower shots to take out a Koopa Troopa, would that make Mario games "better"? Moreover, how do things like combos make things more Castlevania than not Castlevania, because Cox often insists these games are throwbacks to "Classicvania."

EDIT: let's be clear that Castlevania was never "hack n' slash," which has a lot in common with beat-em-ups. Castlevania was action-platformer, with occasional adventure elements in its early days, which, again, Cox says is what LoS is bringing back. (?)

[Redgrave]

What are we really gaining except "flash" with all these crazy combos? Take a step back. Let's just put out a rational and theoretical statement: If Mario had to stomp every Goomba twenty times to flatten them, or it took a dozen fire flower shots to take out a Koopa Troopa, would that make Mario games "better"? Moreover, how do things like combos make things more Castlevania than not Castlevania, because Cox often insists these games are throwbacks to "Classicvania."

Have you played a devil may cry game before?Probably not.The chaining and making new wholesome combos in a "Hack N' Slash" game was actually the fun of it.A typical hack n' slash game is just button mashing *Cough* god of war Cough* but if could make it different like DMC that makes the genre more fun.But am i saying that Castlevania should be DMC? No.LoS combat is already unique for an "Hack n' slash" game.And if they're tying to get back the classicvania then i also really don't mind and that's really great.

EDIT: let's be clear that Castlevania was never "hack n' slash," which has a lot in common with beat-em-ups. Castlevania was action-platformer, with occasional adventure elements in its early days

Every castlevania fans know that.

[JR]

I don't think chiseling away at enemies again would be the way I would've preferred, but I'm open to it, I guess. I just hope (but also assume) we won't get graded on style points, level completion time, or any crap like that. Despite liking Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, etc., being graded at the end of every level is one of my pet peeves in gaming.

I know I'm alone on this, but the one enemy that I thought benefited from having a crazy amount of health was The Forgotten One. That was a frustrating, yet ultimately fun and rewarding fight to me. I can see how others would find it annoying, though, especially when you had to deal with it for the entire game.

Those damn uberskeletons can go straight to hell, though.

[Redgrave]

What i like in LoS too is despite being a "Hack N' slash game" is we're not being graded in the end.
lol the forgotten one.That battle is so fun and frustrating.I have like hundreds of retries.
Man,i love that boss battle xD

[e105beta]

It doesn't seem like this game is going to use 3D like I expected it to, where backgrounds give the illusion of turning corners like in Klonoa or Megaman X8. That seems a shame. Though, the combo stuff is already enough to turn me off pretty bad. I checked, and a Bone Pillar in IV takes three hits with a full-strength whip, an average skeleton takes one. What are we really gaining except "flash" with all these crazy combos? Take a step back. Let's just put out a rational and theoretical statement: If Mario had to stomp every Goomba twenty times to flatten them, or it took a dozen fire flower shots to take out a Koopa Troopa, would that make Mario games "better"? Moreover, how do things like combos make things more Castlevania than not Castlevania, because Cox often insists these games are throwbacks to "Classicvania."

EDIT: let's be clear that Castlevania was never "hack n' slash," which has a lot in common with beat-em-ups. Castlevania was action-platformer, with occasional adventure elements in its early days, which, again, Cox says is what LoS is bringing back. (?)

Enemies in Mario have one action, and the two mario actions you described are singular, unchanging, and limited methods of approach and attack, so no, jumping on them 20 times would not make it any better unless you found a way to seriously overhaul the jump mechanic or the fireball mechanic and the enemy AI. It's not a viable comparison.

It's not about the number of hits. The whole idea of the combo system is to create situations where your enemies are closer to your level of formidability and require responses beyond the initial approach and few hits. Where as in older platformers each enemy is a singular obstacle, in action combat games each enemy is a series of obstacles that must be surmounted to proceed. The only other way to simulate this gameplay is to have the player constantly ducking and dodging, and give the enemy very few windows in which it can be struck. Sure, you'll hit it less, but the player will be on the defense more than on the offense, which isn't all that fun.

Whether you like the mechanic or not is your business, but over simplifying the whole concept isn't the most productive way of approaching the topic.

Also, everyone, including David Cox, knows what the old Castlevania's are and how they played, so I'm not quite sure why you keep trying to find some sort of fault in Cox's logic. He never said the games were going to be Classicvania's, he said the games hearkened back to those times, and they do in quite a few ways:
1. Focus returned to the Belmonts
2. Focus returned to whip focused gameplay
3. No item grinding
4. No gear system

Yes, they added a new mechanic, one which dominated most of LoS and took the game in a very different gameplay direction than past iterations, but as someone who likes to see franchises explore different gameplay styles, I don't equivocate one strict style of gameplay as the defining feature of a series as long as it continues to retain elements of past iterations.

I mean, look at Megaman. The .exe games were some of the best in the series and they played NOTHING like the originals.

I don't think chiseling away at enemies again would be the way I would've preferred, but I'm open to it, I guess. I just hope (but also assume) we won't get graded on style points, level completion time, or any crap like that. Despite liking Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, etc., being graded at the end of every level is one of my pet peeves in gaming.

I know I'm alone on this, but the one enemy that I thought benefited from having a crazy amount of health was The Forgotten One. That was a frustrating, yet ultimately fun and rewarding fight to me. I can see how others would find it annoying, though, especially when you had to deal with it for the entire game.

Those damn uberskeletons can go straight to hell, though.

100% agree on those skeletons. They're goddamn skeletons, they need to crumple and die, and if they do get the ability to resurrect, make them die just as fast the second time.

[Munchy]

Jorge D. Fuentes
@CastlevaniaLOS I don't understand why you guys insist on having QTE. We don't want to "Press X". We just want to kill the undead hordes!

CastlevaniaLOS
@Jorge D. Fuentes: You don't have to press x or perform QTE if you don't want. It's just an option to finish enemies more quickly

-----------------
Looks like it's optional.  But it does kill them more quickly, so considering they seem to have so much health...

I thought the QTEs were to break out of enemy grabs. It looked like (from the demo) that the grab finishers are just context sensitive and don't require any more input than just the initial R press, unless I missed something.

I kinda hope that the grab escape just sticks to one button like in Dead Space. Mashing a button I can deal with, but t's really obnoxious when it jumps around.

[Flame]

The Skellies in LoS could be poster boys for Got Milk commercials.

Show a gameplay clip of Gabe mercilessly pounding into unflinching skeletons who soak up hits and smack him across the room with one hit, then cut to- GOT MILK?

[DragonSlayr81]

Sure, you'll hit it less, but the player will be on the defense more than on the offense, which isn't all that fun.

But isn't that the point? It's not fun, unless you're a fan of defensive combant. These guys(the heroes, Belmonts) are supposed to be badasses that dispose of monsters with their might. Maybe that's just the old canon, though, and if I think of it that way, I only miss it more.

And even if we never return to the old canon, the next "reboot" of the series, I hope the Belmonts return as the powerful force they once were, able to break barrels and bones in one hit.

[e105beta]

But isn't that the point? It's not fun, unless you're a fan of defensive combant. These guys(the heroes, Belmonts) are supposed to be badasses that dispose of monsters with their might. Maybe that's just the old canon, though, and if I think of it that way, I only miss it more.

And even if we never return to the old canon, the next "reboot" of the series, I hope the Belmonts return as the powerful force they once were, able to break barrels and bones in one hit.

Yeah, I just said it wasn't fun, which is why I used it to contrast a hit-heavy combat system. I'd rather smack someone 50 times and be on the offensive a lot then smack him 3 times and be on the defensive a lot. Makes me feel weaker to be on the defensive, reacting offensively to the enemy, as opposed to being on the offensive, reacting defensively to the enemy.

It may just be me, but can honestly say I never got a power-trip from the old games because enemies took few hits to kill. In fact, seeing how easy it was to die in those games, I felt like the squishy little human that I was, and what was keeping Senor Belmont alive was not his RAW POWER but his quick reflexes and determination (which is funny because that was literally what was getting me through the game). By the time I killed Dracula, I was all like, "You might be stronger than me, and meatier than me, and have hundreds of servants and traps stacked against me, but all of that falls before my 'TRUE GRIT'.

I get the same sense of achievement when I finished raping Olrox, because at the end of the day, while he might have been able to warp and recover health, I was the one left standing, and he was the one with the stake shoved down his throat. I can't lie, after taking down a beast like that, I felt pretty damn powerful.

[JR]

Since Simon looks like he could possibly be the slow heavy of the game, maybe the Vampire Killer is stronger than the Combat Cross and takes less effort to kill enemies? Who knows.

[A-Yty]

Fifth bonus character: Max Slimer. Dressed in a tuxedo.