Topic: A supposition on Dracula's Vulnerabilities

[Dracula9]

I'd say the handle since that's the part that touches the hand and has the whole "oh hey this is a Belmont" sensory thing.

Plus, I don't think Simon physically went and tied a bunch of vines and thorny bits together and replaced the rawhide of the original whip. I'd guess there was some iteration of further alchemy to enhance the thing. I don't imagine conventional methods would work on something so strongly enchanted (I think Skyrim does basically this exact thing, if a reference point is needed).

Or maybe Sara's soul became its own thing and can just be transferred to a new whip (this seems a stretch, though).

[theplottwist]

Well, Curse of Darkness shows that Trevor can equip magical stones on the whip's handle to change its properties. So maybe this is what Simon did -- attach a number of stones on the handle that makes the whip into a constant flail, and still allows it to tap in its fiery power.

[zangetsu468]

The VK's transformation in CVII has to be alchemical in nature imo. Either it unlocks a new form by alchemically/ magically changing, or it's an attachment like COD or HoD.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

How does Nathan Graves defeat Dracula, then?
Are we assuming the Hunter Whip is just another name for the Vampire Killer?

How does Carrie defeat Dracula?  Is this one of those "Carrie and Reinhardt did it together" like how Maria says the events of Rondo of Blood happened in CVJudgment?

Cornell defeats 'a version' of Dracula.  He has no connection to the Belmonts nor has Dracula's Power.  Does he actually defeat him or is this just a ruse?

[zangetsu468]

How does Nathan Graves defeat Dracula, then?
Are we assuming the Hunter Whip is just another name for the Vampire Killer?

How does Carrie defeat Dracula?  Is this one of those "Carrie and Reinhardt did it together" like how Maria says the events of Rondo of Blood happened in CVJudgment?

Cornell defeats 'a version' of Dracula.  He has no connection to the Belmonts nor has Dracula's Power.  Does he actually defeat him or is this just a ruse?

Basically the VK definitively defeating Dracula (aside from Shanoa and Hector who used forms of his own power) in my mind exists in Iga's timeline.

Cotm was meant to exist in its own timeline. It places heavy emphasis on the Hunter Whip (although one can argue DSS cards are more powerful or debate they are the whip itself - not going to touch that debate right now) being passed down to an heir; Nathan. Though this is never conclusively states this and it's more so used as a plot device to propel Nathan and Hugh to be rivals and create some kind if story/ synopsis and character development within the game itself. In context it was made prior to LOI so the Vampire Killer story element does not play as much of a role.

As for the 64 series in LOD Cornell beat a form of (ultimate?) Dracula that canonically for 2 good reasons was not as powerful as CV64's Dracula:
- He wasn't properly resurrected yet, this is evident in the ending where Cornell reflects on Dracula wanting to absorb his Wolf form all along.
- In CV64 Dracula is physically resurrected as Malus meaning the above plan worked. Malus is Dracula in flesh, blood and spirit with Cornell's Wolf form absorbed and his third form being his Dragon/ Demonic form. I would also debate that Cornell didn't "kill" that ultimate Dracula form but merely sent it back to the spirit realm (makai, or whatever it's dubbed). After it's defeated and starts absorbing Cornell's wolf form, you see it descending back into the portal from whence it emerged (being Dracula's torso sticking out of what appears to be the floor). This is  the same deal as when Samus kills Ridley in Prime 3, he doesn't explode or die, he recedes into a void/ dark portal and escapes until the next game. Plus Cornell vs Dracula introduced the Lycan vs Vampire theme to CV which had not previously been touched upon.

Did Reinhardt and Carrie both beat him in 64? More than likely. The same logic applies to Richter and Maria in SOTN's prologue of RoB's final chapter. Why? Well because both characters are canon as well as having to have done something within the game, although never explicitly stated and endings differ i.e. Same situation as RoB/DXC and Dracula XX.   
In context these games were made prior to LOI so the VK emphasis wasn't there yet.

My opinions are mostly stated in my sig, fyi,

[Lumi Kløvstad]

(although one can argue DSS cards are more powerful or debate they are the whip itself - not going to touch that debate right now)

I remember that debate with great fondness, and my fanfic certainly argues that the two whips are seperate.

As for this debate, I think the victories of Hector, Alucard, and Shanoa are definitely the big sticking point. As I pointed out in my OP, they all have the common thread of wielding Dracula's power in some way. As this is essentially the only common point between all three characters -- although Hector and Shanoa definitely have more than a few circumstantial similarities, neither shares much in common with Alucard beyond the use of power derived from Dracula to defeat him.

Hopefully y'all can see why I would make that link.

Now if we're going to argue that all three were incomplete/flawed resurrections, that much is also true. I won't discount that information; I think it is definitely connected. But I am wary of denoting that "connection = cause" in this matter. I think that the weakened Dracula definitely prevented him from hitting them with his full power, which in turn allowed them to hang on long enough to use their fabulous secret powers to finally do in Dracula.

Basically, it's not that Drac's Deflector Shields were weaker, it's that his Turbolasers weren't firing at full power, and his Shields were weak to the kind of power that Hector, Shanoa, and Alucard wield to begin with.

No argument to refute that Curse was badly written though. I mean, how could you try and fight that argument?

[chainsawmidget]

Which leads me to question just how much of the weapon can you change until it's not the same weapon anymore. Just in what part of it is Sara's soul trapped.

Now that just makes me think of this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-W_P7rMQRA

I remember that debate with great fondness, and my fanfic certainly argues that the two whips are seperate.

Basically, it's not that Drac's Deflector Shields were weaker, it's that his Turbolasers weren't firing at full power, and his Shields were weak to the kind of power that Hector, Shanoa, and Alucard wield to begin with.

Castlevania in Sppppaaaaaccceeeeeee!

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Now that just makes me think of this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-W_P7rMQRA

Castlevania in Sppppaaaaaccceeeeeee!

You've just described a Ship of Theseus argument, and I love these.

Essentially, if you replace all the parts in a ship till nothing original remains, is it still the same ship?

Likewise, the leather has been replaced on the whip, so if we replace the handle, is it the same whip?

Tough question. Get yer philosophy hats on!

[chainsawmidget]

Likewise, the leather has been replaced on the whip, so if we replace the handle, is it the same whip?

What if we took the leather from the whip and attached it to a new handle, then took the old handle and attached it to a knew bit of leather.  Would we have two Vampire Killers?

[Lelygax]

What if we took the leather from the whip and attached it to a new handle, then took the old handle and attached it to a knew bit of leather.  Would we have two Vampire Killers?

Hunter Whip's theory detected!

[TheTextGuy]

What if we took the leather from the whip and attached it to a new handle, then took the old handle and attached it to a knew bit of leather.  Would we have two Vampire Killers?

Nah
It would be just a pair of whips called Vampire and Killer 

[zangetsu468]

What if we took the leather from the whip and attached it to a new handle, then took the old handle and attached it to a knew bit of leather.  Would we have two Vampire Killers?

I highly doubt it. Personally if anything is say Sara's Soul is in the leather(or other; chain etc) of the VK. This is the part she was struck with during the ritual, this is the is the part all creatures including Dracula are struck with when a Belmont uses the VK.

I'm not saying the hilt couldn't house her soul as well, but the whip of alchemy itself physically connected Leon and Sara during the final moments of the ritual. It is more than likely through the whole whip imo but if it eliminates duplicating the whip by separating the hilt then I'd say it makes more sense for her soul to exist in the leather component.

[theplottwist]

While writting a certain thing, it just ocurred to me about a possibility on how Hector could've destroyed Dracula: Hector did it simply because he was literally attacking Isaac's body, not Dracula's. Isaac's body CERTAINLY is vulnerable to any weapon.

By destroying Isaac's body, Dracula's soul is forced to return to the darkness since it has no body to inhabit on.

When Dracula is defeated, he even exclaims "The transformation... Was it not complete?!" which implies that, maybe, if the transformation of Isaac's body into Dracula's had been completed, he'd be truly impervious to Hector's attack since it would be Dracula's body in full effect.

[zangetsu468]

It just now ocurred to me about a possibility on how Hector could destroy Dracula: Hector did it simply because he was literally attacking Isaac's body, not Dracula's.

When Dracula is defeated, he even exclaims "The transformation... Was it not complete?!" which implies that, maybe, if the transformation of Isaac's body into Dracula's had been completed, he'd be truly impervious to Hector's attack since it would be Dracula's body in full effect.

Or he attacked his body enough before the transformation reached its sticking point, Isaac was already battered and bruised from their previous dual.

[X]

While writting a certain thing, it just ocurred to me about a possibility on how Hector could've destroyed Dracula: Hector did it simply because he was literally attacking Isaac's body, not Dracula's. Isaac's body CERTAINLY is vulnerable to any weapon.

By destroying Isaac's body, Dracula's soul is forced to return to the darkness since it has no body to inhabit on.

When Dracula is defeated, he even exclaims "The transformation... Was it not complete?!" which implies that, maybe, if the transformation of Isaac's body into Dracula's had been completed, he'd be truly impervious to Hector's attack since it would be Dracula's body in full effect.

Now THIS makes sense as to why Hector could defeat Dracula while he is not of Belmont blood. Although Cornell is still an issue to think about since he too, isn't a Belmont.