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Off Topic => Off Topic => Topic started by: Mooning Freddy on February 07, 2012, 06:02:52 AM

Title: My father is a racist
Post by: Mooning Freddy on February 07, 2012, 06:02:52 AM
... And it frustrates me deeply. I always knew that he is a conservative right-winger, and so was I to a certain extent, but after a conversation we had he said something that annoyed me so much that I don't think I would discuss politics with him again.
It's always been me and him disagreeing about different matters, but that time I decided to drop the bomb.
I told him I went to a convention of a certain movement which promotes tolerance and agreement between Israelis and Palestinians. He said that he is disappointed that I listened to "those leftist idiots" and I took advantage of the conversation to ask him of his opinion of the subject. He responded with a remark that was so anti-liberal and intolerant that my appreciation of him dropped substantially. 
Did you ever have dramatic arguments with members of your family? How did it end up for you?
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: uzo on February 07, 2012, 06:17:32 AM
A lot of people's parents are racist. Nothing new there.

Though, would this case really be 'racist' or 'they continue to murder and plot to destroy us'-ist?

My favorites are when you talk to someone who is "democrat"/"liberal" on paper but if you spend 5 minutes talking to them they really are conservative right wingers who say they're democrat because being democrat is socially the 'right' choice in NY. Most of them don't realize it or understand the difference.

Rooting for Obama; cussing at the minorities for welfare and protesting gay marriage.

Don't tell them the truth though. They can't possibly be conservative because the right wing is "EVIL".
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Gunlord on February 07, 2012, 09:06:47 AM
That's pretty insightful, Uzo. I know what you mean...I've met a lot of "progressive" people like that too. ~_~
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on February 07, 2012, 10:08:38 AM
There are many subjects that are controversial to talk about with family.

I'm hispanic, so talking about religion with family members is an ongoing battle, since the country I'm from is 95% Roman Catholic.  I have to constantly describe what 'being Agnostic' is.  Usually after the first explanation they say "So you're an Atheist" and I'm like "noooo..." and then have to explain it again.  Religion is so entwined into most of my relatives' lives, since they're Catholic (or in one case, Jehova's Witness {a religion I dislike because of their elitist attitudes and how they shun people who do not have perfect morals}).

Interestingly enough, although most are Catholic and believe in that religion, they also believe in supernatural things like the "Evil Eye" and curses.  I guess it's the leftover roots from our indigenous ancestors.

When it comes to politics, the USA's "Left" is actually centrist.  The entire spectrum for USA politics is askew; there is no left.  There's center, right, and far right.  You can tell because anytime someone adds the word "Social", or "Community" or "Unionized" to anything, people generally throw their hands up and scream 'socialist' and 'communist' and 'anti-capitalist' and 'anti-American'.  That's how askew the thing is.  Even if you're on the USA 'left', you don't mention things with those words out of fear that you'll be colored red.  In South America, however, that's where there are more "Left" states of government

I'm for:
-Separation of Church and State... but not enough to raise a hissyfit over the dollar saying "In God We Trust".
-ProChoice.   Most people who are against them are so because of their religion and its imposed Moral Compass.
-Gay Rights and Gay Marriage.
-Social programs (like Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, Unemployment) and paying taxes for them.  The downtrodden in the society should have access to the basic necessities and even if I were rich, I'd still pay taxes for them... for the good of the community.
-Local Industry (there should be heavy tariffs for companies who outsource their work, and a heavy tariff on imported goods, in order to promose USA-marketed product)
-Green Energy (I see ads on CNN all the time paid for by the American Petroleum Industry, and I really think that we should be focusing our...er... 'energy'... on better sources of energy, even if there are wind farms on every hill and solar panels on every post).

So I guess I'm on the left, but these are just honest sensible approaches.  I am in an odd situation because South Americans are very religious, but at the same time very liberal (I'm not religious at all and generally am against Organized Religion of any type).  It's not like in the USA where the heavily religious are usually Republican as well.  There seems to be some kind of rationale developed, either by media or by the political groups themselves, in the USA, which sort of throws all the Atheists and Agnostics into the supposed "Left" as if we were heathens, potheads, or hippies.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Flame on February 07, 2012, 10:27:59 AM
My cousin is hardcore Conservative, and he ALWAYS makes certain remark at family reunions and gets into political arguments with his brother. he literally gets red in the face. I swear one day he's going to have a heart attack. See, he thinks of himself as rich, because he has a nice, large home in New Jersey, with a large yard and an in ground swimming pool. However. He has been laid off from his previous job which pretty much afforded him the house, (and mind you he bought all that back maybe in the 80's) He has a teenage daughter, maybe around 17 I think? and a young boy, I forget the age... But maybe 5 or 6? IDK. He talks and shit and hes all over the place- who was born with a deformed heart. They had to preform reconstructive surgery on him right when he was born.

They BOTH work to make ends meet, and yet, he is this hardcore conservative who thinks hes rich, when he really isnt- is pretty racist, and has been forbidden to talk about politics during family reunions. But I mean like, hes just plain retarded conservative. My dad, who is definitely far older than him, makes some kind of commentary on Social security or health care, and gets labeled "socialist" by him. "because of his upbringing, he has socialistic tendencies"

Uh, what? really? you are going to tell the guy who has been on this earth and worked and lived far longer than you, and who actually reads the news and tkes in different sides, that he's wrong your right? it pisses me off so much.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: X on February 07, 2012, 10:29:10 AM
To my experience I've never met a relative of mine that has ever been a racist or some other detestable braggart. I guess I should count myself lucky that my families' opinions reflect mine and all of us a quite comfortable with it. In fact when ever a positive change happens or something new comes around we embrace it and go with the flow. Unfortunately there are still many people who do not have such a luxury. To me it's really sad that they can't let go of that corrupt form of mental programming and I don't blame them for that either. You can't blame someone who was programed at birth to hate that which is different then what they know or feel comfortable with. It takes time for them to come around and most of the time they've died before ever getting the chance.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: beingthehero on February 07, 2012, 01:33:57 PM
One of the disquieting things about my grandparents were/are their casual racism. My grandmother cheerfully reminisced not too long ago about my grandfather's ability to "out-Jew anyone" when it came to getting deals. One of their favorite expressions to describe nervousness was "I'm sweating like a ni**** at Lincoln's election!" It's odd, because they didn't actually seem to hate those groups, they're phrases from a time when racism was the norm. It makes you wonder how far we've actually came in a relatively short time.

Also, they along with my family and myself are hardcore Democrats.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Husky on February 09, 2012, 05:40:23 AM
I rarly talk to my family anymore, I had an argument with my brother over a month ago, and haven't spoken to him since, my father only calls when he wants something, and going out with him gets embaressing, as he has no filter, and what ever comes to mind he spits it out no matter how bad (meaning racist/sexist) it is..... so yeah I guess I've distanced myself from my family.

     as for the rest of my family I see them on holidays, and like Jorge My fam is roman catholic, and I'm agnostic, sooo yeah its a headache and a half, they thought joinning a dojo ment I was joining a cult, they thought karate was a waste of time, my father asked to come to my shodan test and complained most of the time my brother took photos and labled the tecniques weird things like "death blade attack" and "stabbing fingers".  now both of them make fun saying stupid things like "you'll never be the dragon warrior with out the scroll", and "hows karate mr.miyagi".

long story short (to late I know) I rarely get along with my family, and yet I still make all the nessisary appearences so they don't think that much worse of me...
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: X on February 09, 2012, 10:53:33 AM
Maybe you should draw up a set of guidelines for your family members Husky. If they ever want to be a part of your life or go to your venues then they need to be on their most professional behavior. If not, cut them out of your life entirely. Nobody needs to put up with that kinda s**t and there's now way you should willingly take that abuse laying down. Give them one chance and if they fail, it's game over for them.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Arma on February 09, 2012, 06:34:43 PM
I don't get along with most of my family, my mother and my brothers don't take me seriously, they seem to believe I'm stupid, naive or just don't know nothing so I can't really talk with them. Our conversation never go beyond the weather and other banalities.
My father is the only one who takes me seriously, we talk about everything. He explains me things when I don't get it, teaches me stuff, correct me when I'm wrong and hardly ever scolds me. He's ma' hero XD

We don't talk much about religions, our family is not religious. He just tells me Jesus was a wise man and that his deeds didn't remain on records of history for over 2000 years without a good reason but that doesn't mean he has to go to church when he doesn't want to and worships an icon of him because that's not the legacy he wanted to leave behind. And stuff like that.
About politics he a justicialist and also admits when a politician he doesn't like says or does something he considers right, when it comes  to social manifestations he's more tolerant than I am. I don't approve when people does that and I'm more inclined to exert the law, by force if neccesary.
When it comes to sports he likes soccer and considers it a sport everyone can practice while other disciplines tend to be more elitist, I hate soccer and consider it a sport that gathers vulgar, violent, fanatical and uneducated individuals. He doesn't argue with me about that either, even when I go teasing  badly saying stuff like now they are all inside the stadium it would be great to throw a missil to exterminate them all to make the world a better place without all that pest walking on it or at least they should be sterilized, and I mean it but he laughs and even jokingly agrees sometimes ha ha

As for racism, we both are to a certain degree but we only discuss that stuff between us and consider inappropiate to share that kind of ideas , racist or not, with others since it's something private of each person.
The only thing I don't like its his excessive womanizing habits, now that he's single is not of my business but I don't like how he cheated on mom when they were still together. I always tell him people who can't keep their pants on shouldn't even  get married, they just make their own lives and their spouse's more complicated. Actually he thinks the same but fails to admit he shouln't have done that to my mom >_>
I'm glad to get along so well with my dad, he's pretty much the only one of my family I can talk to. Though that in part may be so because in many aspects I'm practically a female version of him ha ha ha
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Opium on February 10, 2012, 05:08:49 AM
My entire family is so intolerant that there are only two people in it that speak to me.  I have 6 nieces and nephews that I've never seen, and probably never will.  I'm not permitted at family events, and am basically dead to them.  They used to be such nice happy people before they all got 'born again'.  Now they all run around all scared/angry and paranoid about the devil and the end of the world.  They weren't discriminatory at all before then.  Religion taught them to be intolerant.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: uzo on February 10, 2012, 05:58:22 AM
He just tells me Jesus was a wise man and that his deeds didn't remain on records of history for over 2000 years without a good reason but that doesn't mean he has to go to church when he doesn't want to and worships an icon of him because that's not the legacy he wanted to leave behind. And stuff like that.

That being your primary example is a little funny, since you and your father don't seem to know much about Jesus at all. You do realize Jesus was the one to say you don't have to go to church, right?

My entire family is so intolerant that there are only two people in it that speak to me.

You never say what they don't tolerate about you, just that they don't tolerate you. What is it about you they don't tolerate?
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Arma on February 10, 2012, 08:52:03 AM
My father knows a great deal about historical Jesus and a lot more than I about religions for that matter.
I only know the basics about the subject and was just explaining briefly what I remembered at the moment from some of our conversations, we don't talk that much about these things, is more like sometimes the conversation just goes there but that doesn't mean we know nothing about the subject.
And yes I do know Jesus said that, my father taught me...
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: uzo on February 10, 2012, 10:55:10 AM
It sounds like a contradiction. He says Jesus is a smart guy with good ideas but he wont follow him religiously, because that mandates he goes to church. But Jesus never mandates anyone to go to church, so he isn't mandated to go in the first place. It sounds like you really don't know about Jesus when you say that, unless you meant to say something else.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Mooning Freddy on February 10, 2012, 11:52:04 AM
Quote
doesn't mean he has to go to church when he doesn't want to and worships an icon of him because that's not the legacy he wanted to leave behind.

It always bothers me as a hypocrisy of Orthodox Christianity (I don't know if it's in Catholic Christianity as well because I am only familiar with the Greek/Slavic Orthodox church) that the believers worship icons of saints. Let alone the very depiction of Christ as the son of God which clearly contradicts the Jewish belief in monotheism, the worship of saints is a clear form of polytheism derived from pagan patriarchal religions.
I mean, what is more clear that that? It's said clearly in the bible, second commandment: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image,you shall not bow down to them nor serve them." Islam explains this hypocrisy when the pagans ask the Muslims whether they may use their idols (rocks) as a tool of contact with Allah. The Muslims forbid that as shirh (polytheism).
Don't get me wrong, I think people should believe whatever they want to believe. But if you're playing religion, stop making up excuses when your religion contradicts itself.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: uzo on February 10, 2012, 12:34:03 PM
You're absolutely correct, except for one small detail. The son, and God, are supposedly one in the same being. He is an extension of God's being, not a separate God or entity in itself. In fact I believe Jesus never said to praise anyone but God, and somehow the church got everything ass backwards anyway.

Jesus pretty much spent his life leading people away from the organized church for the jewish community, breaking them free from the ruling body of church 'officials'. Those officials then orchestrated his arrest and death.

In a turn of ultimate irony; some people go and create an organized church based on Jesus.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Arma on February 10, 2012, 12:36:53 PM
It always bothers me as a hypocrisy of Orthodox Christianity (I don't know if it's in Catholic Christianity as well because I am only familiar with the Greek/Slavic Orthodox church) that the believers worship icons of saints. Let alone the very depiction of Christ as the son of God which clearly contradicts the Jewish belief in monotheism, the worship of saints is a clear form of polytheism derived from pagan patriarchal religions.
I mean, what is more clear that that? It's said clearly in the bible, second commandment: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image,you shall not bow down to them nor serve them." Islam explains this hypocrisy when the pagans ask the Muslims whether they may use their idols (rocks) as a tool of contact with Allah. The Muslims forbid that as shirh (polytheism).
Don't get me wrong, I think people should believe whatever they want to believe. But if you're playing religion, stop making up excuses when your religion contradicts itself.

Indeed, Jesus can be separated in two different figures or aspects, there's Jesus the real man and Jesus the son of God which is like a figure constructed by the passing of the centuries by people. Perhaps when someone used Jesus as an example they at the same time added their own beliefs and experiences mixing the facts and this would stay in the collective memory and/or the bible and probably it's because of this that the bible seems so contradictory. In a few words everyone knows; it's an old book written by many accordingly to the times they lived in.

With no intention to offend I think there are resemblances with Arthurian legends, to name an example. Nowadays it's impossible to know if King Arthur was a real man or just a figure created by the legends. Everytime someone would tell the story they added something, perhaps a trait, a place, a character that wasn't there before and the next person would do the same and so on. Perhaps in one version The Lady of the Lake was a sorceress and in other she was a fairy, creating many different version and events for the characters.

I think something similar happens in the case of the bible. But the bible is taken more seriously of course.

As for the icon worshipping and saints, I think that too is intimately related to people's needs. If praying to the figure of Jesus in the cross or a saint makes them feel satisfied at some degree then people don't really care what is contradictory because to pray at the church gives them peace, for them it can't be bad if it makes them feel like that.
Some people may feel like religion satisfy that inner need they have for a place of peace and reflexion and some others would find church is not neccesary in their lives for they may find other ways to fulfill those needs or don't care at all.

Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Abnormal Freak on February 10, 2012, 05:17:59 PM
The son, and God, are supposedly one in the same being. He is an extension of God's being, not a separate God or entity in itself.

Different but the same. What that means entirely, I'm unsure, but the Trinity doctrine teaches that there are three persons of the same being; distinct from each other and yet one in unity.

Each person is considered wholly God, not just a fragment of God, and each has their own role: the Father is appointed the head, the Son the mediator between God and man (his actions on the cross creating a way for salvation), and the Holy Spirit the convictor of sins who leads people to the knowledge that they must be saved. They work together, forever in love and unity, and are each fully God with distinctive functions and yet of the same essence.

So, it's easy to understand why people see that as being three Gods, but Christian doctrine teaches that there is only one God and that the Trinity does not conflict with monotheism.

And according to Scripture, Jesus himself claimed to be God: "before Abraham was [born; came into being], I am" (John 8:58, alluding to God's statement "I AM THAT I AM" in Exodus 3:14, a statement proclaiming his timelessness; when "LORD" is in English Bibles in all capital letters, it's a translation of a Hebrew word meaning "to be" or "He is," which comes from the same root as "I am"); and "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). In both instances, Jews picked up stones to kill him, because they understood the theistic implications of these statements.

John of course was a disciple of Christ, one of the twelve and an apostle, and he makes the case for Jesus' deity more than the other gospel writers, although in the epistles, Peter, Paul, and unknown authors of other letters make the case for him being God as well. Considering Peter was also one of the twelve and was with Christ all his earthly ministry, that's two such people who explicitly claim in their writings that Jesus is God. (II Peter 1:1–3, "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.")



As for racism, can't say I've ever experienced it in my family, not even from my extended family. For the most part we're all conservative Christians, and even those who aren't are good people (...for the most part). It's sad to me to hear about others' supposed Christian families who are intolerant and bigoted and unloving and so forth. That's not what Christianity teaches. At all.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: uzo on February 10, 2012, 08:21:21 PM
Very well put.

Most people seem to use Christianity as a crutch to support their terrible actions, or just go through the motions without ever actually taking any of the teachings into account. If you don't really even try to live by it, why bother going to church every week? It seems more like a status symbol, or an obligated public image thing.

Bigoted Christians are all the rage where I hail from. Well, I suppose just bigotry in itself is, and it then leaches into all other aspects of life.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Opium on February 10, 2012, 10:20:57 PM
You never say what they don't tolerate about you, just that they don't tolerate you. What is it about you they don't tolerate?

I did that on purpose because I didn't think it was important.  They don't like me because I don't believe in god and I don't discriminate against gays and racial minorities.  Basically, I don't hate people so that's reason to hate me.  I'm quite liberal while they're my polar opposite.  Plus, I think they resent me on a deeper level because of alcoholism.  They are all raging alcoholics - I mean so bad that they would drink mouthwash.  I hate booze - always have and always will.  I'm the only one in the entire family that never became a drunk.  I tried it when I was a teen, decided it was gross, and left it alone.  The reason they got all religious is through a 12-step alcoholics recovery group.  So now they're what you call dry-drunks - sober alcoholics who are very bitter about the world.  So basically, I think the reason they hate me the most is because I'm not miserable like them.

Not sure if you've read any of my rants about alcohol or religion, but I do have opinions about both of those things and now you know why.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: uzo on February 10, 2012, 10:26:51 PM
And here I thought you were going to say you came out of the closet and they disowned you, since you were being all dodgy with it.

I'm with you on the booze thing. I rarely ever drink. It's so unproductive.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Mooning Freddy on February 10, 2012, 10:32:34 PM
Freak, that just further intensifies the controversy about the figure of Jesus. A man in the flesh cannot be God, I'm not saying you may not believe in that, it just contradicts the Jewish belief in God as an abstract being. And since after all, Jesus was a Jew, and furthermore, a faithful Jew, I can hardly imagine a sane Jew running around Judea, trying to convince people he is (a) god. No Jew would believe him.

On the other hand, remember Jesus lived in a world reigned by Hellenistic religion. The Greeks and Romans, who believed that Gods are just like humans, but much more powerful, believed the gods may have children with humans. Makes much more sense, doesn't it? So I believe it's only logical for early Christians to claim their leader was the son of God, rather than them claiming he was a Jew (a weak and humiliated nation) so believers in the Hellenistic faith would convert to Christianity. I am inclined to believe in that.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Opium on February 10, 2012, 10:38:36 PM
So I believe it's only logical for early Christians to claim their leader was the son of God, rather than them claiming he was a Jew (a weak and humiliated nation) so believers in the Hellenistic faith would convert to Christianity. I am inclined to believe in that.

Any sentence that mentions logic and religious beliefs at the same time just makes my brain melt.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: TheouAegis on February 10, 2012, 10:50:17 PM
Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit could all be one in the same in the same way a creature that dwells within the 4th, 5th, or higher dimensions would appear to be multiple creatures in the 3rd dimension. It's easy to visualize:

Assume a piece of paper is a 2D world. Hold it in front of you. Look around it. You are in the 3rd dimension, so you can see all aspects of the paper, but the denizens of the paper (yes, little creatures are living in that paper!) only perceive the one surface on their 2D world. They look off into the horizon and see a simple point amidst the backdrop of a single line. That is their world. Wet the paper and punch your fingers through it in such a way that you make 5 holes in the paper. Witnessing denizens of Papyria will see five 2D versions of your fingers, even though in reality your fingers are 3D, because in the paper, the inhabitants can only perceive their 2D universe, not your 3D one. So in a way, it's possible God is really a 4th or higher dimensional being and Jesus was God giving humans the finger.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: X on February 11, 2012, 01:46:37 AM
Originally the holy trinity was never the Father, the son and the holy ghost. It was the Father, the Son and the Mother. It makes much more sense in that regard as it properly reflects the holy trinity (family). Holy ghost? Seriously you church guys?? The church has a thing against women as in they fear a woman's natural power so they did many things to try an eliminate women from any form of status in religion and civilization in general, including eliminating the mother god which is why we only know the Father God; Jehovah. I know him as 'Om' and the mother god as 'Azna'. While there is a singular Godhead, it has both aspects (Male and Female). After all if Jehova was the blueprint for man then there had to be a female aspect in order to create women. Makes much more sense then a woman coming from Adam's rib which makes no sense at all  :P. Organized Religion is probably the biggest sexist on the planet when it comes to women and women's rights and I loath it. Everyday on the news either radio or TV there is a woman or women being discriminated against by their own so-called faith. It's stupid, sickening, disgraceful and I can't wait for the day when they all come tumbling down due to their own big fat egos.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Abnormal Freak on February 11, 2012, 02:23:19 AM
Freak, that just further intensifies the controversy about the figure of Jesus. A man in the flesh cannot be God, I'm not saying you may not believe in that, it just contradicts the Jewish belief in God as an abstract being. And since after all, Jesus was a Jew, and furthermore, a faithful Jew, I can hardly imagine a sane Jew running around Judea, trying to convince people he is (a) god. No Jew would believe him.

Well, the thing is, Jesus was not flesh until he came to the earth as an infant through Mary. Before that, I suppose he would have been spirit, and Scripture mentions him remaining in the flesh after resurrection.

He was indeed a faithful Jew, well-versed in Scripture and the culture, and unfortunately a lot of Christians ignore or simply don't know this, despite him being a rabbi with faithful talmidim. Many would try to get rid of the notion that Jesus was a religious Jew, even though his teachings as recorded in Scripture are so centric on Jewish philosophies and practices. He came to fulfill prophecy and further the faith, not do away with it.

Jesus didn't go around telling people that he was God, though. If I recall, those are the only two instances where he claimed such out in the open. He was asked questions, and gave honest answers. He would actually dissuade others from revealing who he was. And certainly he knew that proclaiming to be God would get him killed, which is why he was so careful on the matter as he knew he was not to die until the appointed time.

Originally the holy trinity was never the Father, the son and the holy ghost. It was the Father, the Son and the Mother. It makes much more sense in that regard as it properly reflects the holy trinity (family). Holy ghost? Seriously you church guys?? The church has a thing against women as in they fear a woman's natural power so they did many things to try an eliminate women from any form of status in religion and civilization in general, including eliminating the mother god which is why we only know the Father God; Jehovah. I know him as 'Om' and the mother god as 'Azna'. While there is a singular Godhead, it has both aspects (Male and Female). After all if Jehova was the blueprint for man then there had to be a female aspect in order to create women. Makes much more sense then a woman coming from Adam's rib which makes no sense at all  :P. Organized Religion is probably the biggest sexist on the planet when it comes to women and women's rights and I loath it. Everyday on the news either radio or TV there is a woman or women being discriminated against by their own so-called faith. It's stupid, sickening, disgraceful and I can't wait for the day when they all come tumbling down due to their own big fat egos.

To me, this just implies physical (that is, human-like) characteristics of God, which I think is a wrong idea of man being made in the likeness of God. Saying, "We have male and female, thus there must be a Male and Female God" doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. And when you mention the Trinity originally referring to a Father, Mother, and Son Deity, I assume you're speaking about some non-biblical trinity belief system separate from Judeo-Christianity rather than something that was altered in Judeo-Christianity over time.

The Holy Spirit is mentioned as the Helper (John 14:16–17). This being is mentioned as different from the Father. "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." A believer in Christ thus receives the Spirit and is reconciled with God (the Father). If there's a Mother God in addition to the Father and Son, then it's no longer a Trinity since there's now Spirit, unless the Mother is the Spirit and she is the one with whom Jesus will baptize believers along with fire (Luke 3:16) upon repentance and acceptance of Christ. But there is no Mother God in Christian teaching.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Vampire Killer on February 11, 2012, 02:41:35 AM
Wow, atheist circle jerk going on in here :-\
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: VladCT on February 11, 2012, 02:59:57 AM
I love how a topic about the racism of one's family member/s suddenly turns into a religious debate. :P
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Kale on February 11, 2012, 04:39:54 AM
I can't remember the OP but... didn't he say something about religion... or was it someone else that brought it up as being the reason?

Anyway, who cares if he's racist. As long as he doesn't "do" anything, he's fine by me. You're free to hate anything and anyone you want, but you better not be doing important shit based on it.

Secondly, I don't think religion causes anything. It, I believe, is more of an outlet for those who already think it, and use it as a reason to do so.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Arma on February 11, 2012, 05:35:34 AM
I love how a topic about the racism of one's family member/s suddenly turns into a religious debate. :P

It was just a couple of post were it was mentioned how their families take on religion among other things and then all went upside down. That happens a lot around here though :p
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: beingthehero on February 11, 2012, 07:06:17 AM
People will use any idea or philosophy to justify terrible things. It doesn't have to be religion. It can very well be economic (the great famines of the USSR in the 30's) cultural (Mao's brutal Cultural Revolution), or political (the purges in Nazi Germany and again the USSR).
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: uzo on February 11, 2012, 08:21:56 AM
People will use any idea or philosophy to justify terrible things.

Truth.

The word of God is only 'bad' when imperfect humans use it for evil or change it to fit their needs. There is nothing wrong with the religion itself. Some atheists seem to ignore this truth to further their goals and support their hate. This inherently goes against the objective and logical principles of atheism.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Mooning Freddy on February 11, 2012, 09:34:00 AM
There is nothing wrong with the religion itself. Some atheists seem to ignore this truth to further their goals and support their hate.

I would only oppose religious beliefs and action when those are anti-liberal, i.e. excessively limit human freedom.
You probably haven't heard of that, but recently in Israel there has been a great controversy over cases of sexual segregation in the Jewish Orthodox communities. Some groups among them promote sexual segregation in public places, but that sort of behavior has gone far out of line. The Orthodox community started implementing segregated busses (i.e. men to front, women to back) and secular women who wanted to ride (public) busses through their neighborhoods were rudely ordered to move to the back of the bus. The controversy exploded after the media exposed the story of a little girl who was repeatedly harassed on the street because her clothing was not "modest" enough in the eyes of her orthodox neighbors.

Now, you may protect those people because it's their religion and the women would even accept that and believe they're free. I say, bullshit. Those people do not receive liberal education and are practically brainwashed into believing their ways are the only way to live. I do not think that kind of behavior should be tolerated by a democratic society.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: X on February 11, 2012, 10:04:20 AM
Quote
The Holy Spirit is mentioned as the Helper (John 14:16–17). This being is mentioned as different from the Father. "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." A believer in Christ thus receives the Spirit and is reconciled with God (the Father). If there's a Mother God in addition to the Father and Son, then it's no longer a Trinity since there's now Spirit, unless the Mother is the Spirit and she is the one with whom Jesus will baptize believers along with fire (Luke 3:16) upon repentance and acceptance of Christ. But there is no Mother God in Christian teaching.

Jesus himself spoke of a mother god aspect. It would be in the original scripture i.e. the Jesus scrolls. The only reason nobody's heard of it is due to it being left out of the bible or subsequently changed by the Romans, more specifically; Emperor Constantin and saint Paul. A lot of things never went into the bible that should've been in there from the start. But it was Man's arrogance that dictated otherwise. And it shames me to be a man myself knowing this.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: uzo on February 11, 2012, 10:52:11 AM
(i.e. men to front, women to back)

Jews treat their women like blacks?
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Mooning Freddy on February 11, 2012, 11:30:59 AM
Jews treat their women like blacks?

Ultra-Orthodox Jews. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism) Not all of them, but it's becoming more widespread. Women are required to dress in a modest way (long skirts and sleeves). The way they explain it, it's for their own good (duh) because otherwise they would arouse sexual desire, which is sinful. Furthermore, Orthodox men are not allowed to listen to female singing, because that, too, arouses sexual desire. The public segregation is just an intensification of this logic.
One can understand why this kind of beliefs are unacceptable by feminists. That logic clearly presents women as vixens whose very presence may disturb men. As I said, not all people in the Orthodox communities support segregation, the problem is that those who disagree usually keep silent.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Abnormal Freak on February 11, 2012, 01:40:16 PM
Not listening to female singers because that arouses... That's pretty extreme. :p So is not allowing a woman to dress beautifully, although I personally wish more women in the States at least would dress more modestly.

There are certain moral truths that I believe should be upheld by all people whether they're of a specific faith or not, but pushing certain beliefs on others such as the issue with the segregated buses strikes me as something that really ought not to be done. That is, for people who aren't of that faith: why should they be expected to live by and adhere to that?

For religious people, though, limiting oneself is an essential part to just about any religion. You choose not to do things because they're either immoral or do not lift up others. Christianity is much about self-restraint, of limiting oneself, choosing not to do certain things which are spelled out as sins or which whether sins or not may be a stumbling block to those who may see them as such, and thus abstaining from those things. It's living for God over pursuing what we naturally want, because as Christian doctrine teaches, we are all born in sin, wicked by default, and will have many sinful desires. But, like I said, with the exception of specific moral truths that everyone ought to adhere to (not committing murder is an obvious one), godly lifestyles shouldn't be expected of those who are not believers, and forcing them to live according to ideals they don't personally hold really does nothing good.

As for discussing religion... Hey, other people were doing it first, so I jumped in. :p
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Gunlord on February 11, 2012, 01:59:19 PM
Well, not all Christians believe in the doctrine of Original Sin, o beauteous Abnormal Freak.

That said, on the one hand, I sympathize with you about the bus thing. On the other hand, why go on a bus filled with Ultra-Orthodox Jews in the first place? Those people mainly keep to themselves, and thus, ought to be avoided, given their strange beliefs. And other Jews from other denominations feel the same way, it seems. Many problems like this could be avoided just by steering clear of extremists. Personally, if I see a bus filled up with humorless-looking people in odd costumes, I'm takin' the next one.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Abnormal Freak on February 11, 2012, 02:07:08 PM
Y'all seen Brüno? Sacha Baron Cohen at one point walks around Jerusalem in a really, uh, chic version of the typical Hasidic garb, and is chased down by an Orthodox Jew in the streets. According to Baron Cohen, he strongly believes that the guy and a couple others who followed the chase would have killed him, and he ran away shouting (in Hebrew), "Stop! I'm a Jew!" It's pretty outrageous. ;)

Bruno Gets Chased Down a Street in Israel! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCsIrYNp1gg#ws)
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Gunlord on February 11, 2012, 03:54:55 PM
Crazy, crazy, crazy. ;o
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Opium on February 11, 2012, 05:30:28 PM
"Arguing with those who will not submit to reason is like administering medicine to the dead."  -Thomas Paine
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on February 11, 2012, 06:50:20 PM
The reason 'racism' gets coupled together with religion is because a lot of religions have ties to the race/nationality within.  Crude examples would be middle easterners with the Jewish or Islam religions, etc.  Another reason 'racism' was used, albeit incorrectly, is when it was coupled with prejudice, such as prejudice toward non-religious people and towards alternate lifestyles such as homosexuality.

So I suppose the topic should've been 'my father is an intolerant person'... but that's not as catchy as the topic used. ;)

This topic is now about all types of intolerance.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Opium on February 11, 2012, 07:46:05 PM
The reason 'racism' gets coupled together with religion is because a lot of religions have ties to the race/nationality within.  Crude examples would be middle easterners with the Jewish or Islam religions, etc.  Another reason 'racism' was used, albeit incorrectly, is when it was coupled with prejudice, such as prejudice toward non-religious people and towards alternate lifestyles such as homosexuality.

So I suppose the topic should've been 'my father is an intolerant person'... but that's not as catchy as the topic used. ;)

This topic is now about all types of intolerance.

I think that racism and religion go hand in hand because they both do the same thing for people: make them feel better about themselves.  People seek to protect their egos in every way possible.  Saying that another race is inferior is a great way to make you feel better about your own, particularly because you don't have to DO anything to prove it.  You simply ARE better, regardless of your actions, because god loves you more and made you better than them.  Racism pads an insecure ego in the exact same way that kids pick on each other to feel better about themselves. 
I don't think that the tie between racism and religion has so much to do with how different races or ethnic groups are more or less likely to belong to different religions.  I think people use religion to JUSTIFY racism, just as they use it to justify a billion other irrational viewpoints - and that's ultimately how they are related IMHO.

Just look at the greatest example of what's wrong with racism: the enslavement of people.  People quoted the bible and it's hundreds of passages justifying slavery to feel right about it.  Hell, mormons actually believe that africans have dark skin because they lived a sinful past life, so god cursed them with dark skin.

My family is very very racist, but they didn't used to be.  Only after they found religion did they become that way.  They actually view tolerance of minority races as an expression against their religion, and that's not uncommon.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: uzo on February 11, 2012, 08:12:15 PM
because god loves you more and made you better than them

If you're going to go through the trouble to start attacking a religion, you could at least take the time to at least learn the BASICS of that religion. It seems you couldn't be bothered to do even that.

Remember that thing I just said above about irrational bashing and atheist hate? Good job being the prime example here, in the intolerance thread of all places.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Opium on February 11, 2012, 08:45:52 PM
HUH ?  I didn't even attribute that statement to any religion in particular.  I haven't even used the word 'atheist' either, so that's another assumption on your part.  As long as you're mentioning atheists, studies show that they know more about religion than religious people do - but atheists already knew that, just watch debate after debate where religious people demonstrate their ignorance about their own faith.  If you're gonna get offended, at least get your facts straight.
There are many people who actually believe that god loves them more than other people, that's just plain true - so don't get all bent out of shape if someone points it out.
Besides, how does that statement even demonstrate a lack of knowledge about something? It's just stating a fact.

Remember that thing I just said above about irrational bashing and atheist hate? Good job being the prime example here, in the intolerance thread of all places.

If you're going to call someone out for being intolerant of intolerance, then I guess we're all hypocrites who would be speaking german right now if such logic made any sense.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Neobelmont on February 11, 2012, 11:20:17 PM
Reading all these comments makes me think one thing: got to open those books and read, so many things to understand ...But if it's one thing it seems that intolerance comes from lack of understanding and well fear of the unknown(this really is a common) and most of all that feeling of being insecure other than that sadly and well this is embarrassing I just do not know enough to make such a solid statement to make the best of conversation at this moment so this is my one cent on it.

Jews treat their women like blacks?

I am curious very curious about this statement what does this mean exactly? No seriously is it good bad what?
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: uzo on February 12, 2012, 12:54:47 AM
HUH ?  I didn't even attribute that statement to any religion in particular.

Not many religions to choose from when you name drop "God." God is for all of man. He loves equally, with infinite mercy and forgiveness. Shouldn't you know this already?

I haven't even used the word 'atheist' either, so that's another assumption on your part.

I could have sworn you did, but review of posts shows you did not specifically label yourself as an atheist. However;

Religion taught them to be intolerant.
I don't believe in god
Any sentence that mentions logic and religious beliefs at the same time just makes my brain melt.

You've been condemning religion as a concept, and claiming no belief in God. Logically, this means you follow no religion. Now I ask; If not atheist, then what?

As long as you're mentioning atheists, studies show that they know more about religion than religious people do - but atheists already knew that, just watch debate after debate where religious people demonstrate their ignorance about their own faith.

The key word you're missing here is "sometimes." For all that touting about 'logic' you sure seem to be imposing improper absolutes here. The key here is that, the existence of ignorant followers has absolutely no barring on the legitimacy and actual teachings of the religion. You're just fabricating reasons to hate at this point.

There are many people who actually believe that god loves them more than other people, that's just plain true

See directly above.

Besides, how does that statement even demonstrate a lack of knowledge about something? It's just stating a fact.

See first part above. You know, basic God stuff. So much for coming into this with "your facts straight."

If you're going to call someone out for being intolerant of intolerance, then I guess we're all hypocrites who would be speaking german right now if such logic made any sense.

You're being intolerant of religion in general, is the point. Try to pay attention here.

If you're gonna get offended
don't get all bent out of shape

Oh right, I can't possibly be discussing this in a calm logical manner, because I believe in God. How silly of me. Who is the one with the assumptions here now? I don't think you even have what it takes to get me bent out of shape.

Come on, kid. At least try to keep up here. If you're going to rise up and defeat those evil religions, you have a very long way to go. You can't be touting 'logic' as your thematic center point and then write a sad reply like that. All you're doing is coming off as a smug, self assured, brat with a chip on your shoulder because you've had a bad experience with some ignorant people who happen to follow a religion. You think you know it all because you can throw around some random bashing and generalizations?

If you want to have a real debate about religion based in logic, then you'll have to step it up big time. If all you're going to do is take piss poor pot shots then just take it somewhere else already.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Kale on February 12, 2012, 02:24:16 PM
I think that racism and religion go hand in hand because they both do the same thing for people: make them feel better about themselves. 

 I think people use religion to JUSTIFY racism, just as they use it to justify a billion other irrational viewpoints - and that's ultimately how they are related IMHO.

That doesn't mean they go hand in hand. That means some people are idiots and use religion as a weapon against something. That's like guns and murder go hand in hand, which is not the case, and if you believe other wise.... well can't say anything better than a facepalm.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Abnormal Freak on February 12, 2012, 03:16:17 PM
That and people use, well, ALL KINDS OF REASONS AND PHILOSOPHIES to justify racism. :p Saying religion and racism go hand in hand or that they fit together like peanut butter and jelly is a gross generalization steeped in ignorance.

And not that this really means much of anything, but I know a few somewhat racist people, and they're almost always non-religious. The religious people I know—which includes family, friends, friends' families, and the people and families I know from church—are the most loving, generous, helpful people I've ever known who sacrifice so much to better the lives of others. That's true Christianity. That's biblical Christianity. And sadly, American Christianity doesn't always reflect that; there's a serious problem in this country where people who claim to be of the faith are terribly ignorant of their religion and don't live their lives the way a Christian is called to. But because a large number of people misuse the religion does not make the religion itself some awful hate-intensifier.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Mooning Freddy on February 15, 2012, 02:14:45 PM
I know it's unrelated to the subject. But I was randomly reading stuff on Wikipedia when I found this:

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F7%2F70%2FKhanda1.svg%2F130px-Khanda1.svg.png&hash=88f5e5720cf66db23049394d7b0c39c9)

Yeah, so I don't know much about the Sikh religion but I'll be damned if it's not the coolest religious symbol I've ever seen. 
And it's supposed to be three swords and a chakram connected. Damn, Sikhs. You're awesome.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Flame on February 19, 2012, 12:30:34 AM
That is a pretty neat symbol. The name Sikh too, gotta admit, sounds edgy. (no offense intended to anyone, Just in case...)

mn the last page or so just did NOT compute. All these philosophical religious discussions. Jesus. They are hard to follow!

BTW what is your opinion on "Jews for Jesus"?

Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Mooning Freddy on February 19, 2012, 01:00:25 AM

BTW what is your opinion on "Jews for Jesus"?

Is the question intended for me? Hmmm "Jews for Jesus" or the Messianic Jews movement is a controversial religious sect.
I heard at least some things about it in my country. Personally, I think it's just some sort of devious Christian plot to convert Jews to Christianity. It's quite silly, really. Those people would present themselves as Jews, while their religion is Christianity. Christians failed in converting Jews to Christianity for 2000 years, so they created this movement, which openly claims to be Jewish while teaching Christian faith values.

And the funniest thing about it, is that they would emphasize the clearly Jewish ideas presented in the New Testament, while repeating that Christ was a faithful Jew and the first Christians were Jews, i. e. Christianity is a fundamentally Jewish religion. As if there hasn't been 2000 years since then in which Orthodox Judaism and Christianity each followed its own path.
In simple words? We couldn't convert them forcefully, so let's use their religious logic to do it.
Title: Re: My father is a racist
Post by: Kale on February 19, 2012, 04:51:03 AM
Jesus was jewish though. And the "first" christians were jewish. Indeed Christianity are just an extension of Judaism. So those claims are not wrong. It could be real jewish people who are taking up Jesus as the Messiah as Christians have said.

That said though, it does seem to be some sort of converting "scam" as if they really were Jewish that has now acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah, why not just convert to Christianity or outright break away from the traditional jews (if they want to keep jewish ways)? Though I have not really heard of this movement, it doesn't seem right, just by the sound of it.