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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Anglachel on October 17, 2014, 04:24:06 AM

Title: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Anglachel on October 17, 2014, 04:24:06 AM
When listening to Lords of Shadow 2's music, one change I would have made to the music is to put in more strings. Listen to the Power of Void.

The Power of the Void (Event II) - Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 2 OST (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggPeA78lV6g#ws)

It gives off a very classical, timely feel, especially around 0:20. It's very different from hearing electronic beats in the music. In fact, it sounds very Castlevania to me.

Something else I thought would be epic, would be a song like this.

The Rains of Castamere (extended cut) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU8eL2CjzHw#ws)

Wouldn't a song, like "Rains of Castamere", have been cool for LOS2? A song about Vlad the Impaler, the Order of the Dragon, the Brotherhood of Light, and Dracula's Castle, would have been quite a nice touch.

It would have been awesome had they done the "Bram Stoker's Dracula" take and intertwined Vlad the Impaler with Gabriel Belmont. Lining up his castle with impaled Brotherhood soldiers, making the "Forest of the Impaled."

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jrclifford.com%2Fvlad_the_impaler_ilustration_germanic__3.jpg&hash=8295ab6210945da2aa4930ea6c9a081f)



Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Inccubus on October 17, 2014, 01:44:10 PM
Some actual video game music even half as catchy as the original series would have made all of LoS better.
I'm just being a crotchety old fart about it at this point, though.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Mike Belmont on October 17, 2014, 02:12:13 PM
Some actual video game music even half as catchy as the original series would have made all of LoS better.
I'm just being a crotchety old fart about it at this point, though.

Absolutely this.

I have nothing against Araujo´s music, but there is more videogame music composers. The first question would be, why to put a movie orchestator in charge of the music of a videogame like Castlevania? I have nothing against orchestal music in videogames, really. Let´s hear for example to Rygar: The Legendary Adventure OST. I love its music, is kind of catchy (to me) and is performed by the Moscow International Symphony Orchestra. I prefer the japanese composers, but I like a lot the works from other guys outside Japan, like Cris Velasco, Sascha Dikiciyan, or even Jesper Kyd, for example.

As I said before, I have nothing against the LoS music (even the game itself), but his music could be better. A real Castlevania game deserves a REAL Castlevania music (sorry if this words are harsh... even at this point).
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: LuxKiller65 on October 18, 2014, 07:32:42 AM
mhhh one change... one change...
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Aiddon on October 18, 2014, 08:53:44 AM
Some actual video game music even half as catchy as the original series would have made all of LoS better.
I'm just being a crotchety old fart about it at this point, though.

That is the thing about LoS; the soundtrack is just so...generic. It's every Hans Zimmer/John Williams ripoff soundtrack you hear in EVERY game trying to be a big blockbuster. It doesn't hold a candle to the Metroidvania or even the classic OSTs. Yamane is probably one of the best and most unique game composers around. Stuff like The Tragic Prince and Wandering Ghosts from Symphony or An Empty Tome and Clashing of Waves from Ecclesia were not only great, but had identities. She was able to fuse different styles and genres from classic, to rock, to even techno giving a very eclectic sound to the franchise. I can listen to ANY of the old OSTs and never grow bored of them. Heck, I'm listening to my OST collection as I am typing this.

In all honesty, it's not just the music that's so bothersome about LoS, but the aesthetic in general. It just never felt like a Castlevania game no matter how much Cox, Konami, and Mercurysteam tried to say otherwise. This sudden change of EVERYTHING with LoS was partly to blame for why the series fell of a cliff so quick. The reason SotN and the Iga era was able to get away with a radical change in playstyles was due to two things. 1) He still kept the general aesthetic. Everything still had the series' gothic look and feel with the sprite art and the OSTs also helped that. 2) He kept the lore. The history was still around, the Belmonts were still kicking all sorts of ass and we still had recurring characters. Heck, the first time he did this was with Symphony being a sequel to Rondo of Blood where the old players came back. It helped eased the transition. LoS made the mistake every "reboot" makes by throwing out everything and then slapping the franchise's name on the cover. Not how things in the real world work, my friends.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Kingshango on October 18, 2014, 09:52:10 AM
To be fair, LOS2 had ALOT of problems. So much so that, in my opinion, music was the least of it's problems.

That's when you know a game has problems when an issue with the first game appears in the second game but is overshadowed by glaring issues in the sequel.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Anglachel on October 18, 2014, 10:04:17 AM
I don't disagree with you guys. I like the music in Lords of Shadow, but I wanted classic music in the games too. At least one rendition of "Bloody Tears" would have been superb.

Aiddon, I agree somewhat with the lore issue. What did make the old series really cool was the long spanning lore that it set up. For a fan of the LOS  series (like me), there was very little lore in comparison to support it. There were only 3 games to try and make the new lore. One was basically a prequel (which I thought did a good job), the second was a handheld (mistake), and the third was SO far away from what we expected it to be.

Even with that, I think it would have gone better if MOF was taken out of the equation and the 2nd game was solely devoted to Dracula and his time. His fight against the Belmonts during the medieval times, his awakening in modern times, and his final fight. I actually thought that the first half of the second game would have been that, and we only would have gotten to modern times about halfway into the game.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: DoctaMario on October 18, 2014, 11:24:46 AM
I didn't love LoS2's ost but I think it was appropriate for the game. If they'd done something similar to old school CV I don't know that it would have fit the tone of the game if that makes sense.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Aiddon on October 18, 2014, 01:19:18 PM
Aiddon, I agree somewhat with the lore issue. What did make the old series really cool was the long spanning lore that it set up. For a fan of the LOS  series (like me), there was very little lore in comparison to support it. There were only 3 games to try and make the new lore. One was basically a prequel (which I thought did a good job), the second was a handheld (mistake), and the third was SO far away from what we expected it to be.

Even with that, I think it would have gone better if MOF was taken out of the equation and the 2nd game was solely devoted to Dracula and his time. His fight against the Belmonts during the medieval times, his awakening in modern times, and his final fight. I actually thought that the first half of the second game would have been that, and we only would have gotten to modern times about halfway into the game.

Mirror of Fate's problems had NOTHING to do with it being on a handheld. Just look at the GBA and DS titles; yeah, they were on handhelds but they didn't let that deter them. With the three GBA titles being released on VC, I'm revisiting them and frankly there's nothing about them that was as flawed as MoF; they're all great titles with great design (although admittedly some are better than the others) that are fun to play and get lost in.

No, MoF's problems were in design. Frankly, it was schizophrenic. It couldn't decide if it wanted to be about exploration or about fighting and ended up making both halfbaked. Fighting just got tedious, especially with the damage sponge enemies that just wouldn't die and exploration felt completely token. And then we have the multiple playable protagonists that at the end of the day had bugger all to make them different enough from one another. Instead of having distinct play styles like, say, Dracula's Curse or the secret characters of the IgaVanias, you're just left wondering why they didn't just stick with ONE character that had all the abilities of the cast. Again, just an example of a studio that clearly didn't know what they were doing.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on October 18, 2014, 02:00:35 PM
I didn't love LoS2's ost but I think it was appropriate for the game. If they'd done something similar to old school CV I don't know that it would have fit the tone of the game if that makes sense.
I always hear this, but I dont' think we really know how it would be considering it's never done, or the industry doesn't have the balls to do it. They've nestled themselves into the trend of "epic score" which everybody else and their moms are doing. IMO, it's the safe route. It's the experimental folk that go against the grain and try ideas many others would scoff at and believe won't work.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Lelygax on October 18, 2014, 03:05:16 PM
LoS taught me that music is more important in games than it seems to be.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: DoctaMario on October 18, 2014, 05:34:48 PM
I always hear this, but I dont' think we really know how it would be considering it's never done, or the industry doesn't have the balls to do it. They've nestled themselves into the trend of "epic score" which everybody else and their moms are doing. IMO, it's the safe route. It's the experimental folk that go against the grain and try ideas many others would scoff at and believe won't work.

Castlevania 64's score was similar in a sense. It's about creating an experience, and the music is a component of that experience, but not necessarily the whole experience. The music's there in a sense to form a buffer. If it weren't there you'd definitely notice it, but it's not supposed to be obtrusive and in your face.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: crisis on October 18, 2014, 06:16:14 PM
First Return to the Castle - Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 2 OST (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkYnJKmsKLM#ws)


sorry guys but this track is incredible & fits right in with the series
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Anglachel on October 19, 2014, 08:49:30 AM
I didn't expect this thread to turn into this discussion. There were a few pressing things on my mind I thought LOS2 would have benefited from and I shared them.

Although, there are a lot of things LOS2 would have fared better with and it is always good to hear from others their opinions. So, I thank ye.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Anglachel on October 19, 2014, 09:40:40 AM
I don't know if all of you have heard this, but I think that classic fans can appreciate this.

Castlevania: Lords of Shadow - Super Castlevania IV Soundset (SNESology) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwtb_Qz5D78#)
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on October 19, 2014, 03:27:03 PM
It's alright, but I'm still not a fan of the LoS-style of music, and never will be.

But to get back to your little blip regarding Vlad the Impaler, I REALL(really) want them to focus on him if they ever reboot the CV series again. No Gabriel, no Mathias, no bullshit "I'm some other unknown guy that BECOMES Dracula". No, make it Vlad. Just go all out and do it. And yeah, actually, since SotN(with the part where Death takes your equipment), seeing some of the impaled bodies actually made me WANT a CV game where you would enter an area with a whole bunch of impaled corpses around you. Twisted, sure, but I was basically WANTING this since 1997, and STILL haven't gotten it.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Anglachel on October 19, 2014, 07:50:37 PM
It was really one of the plot elements that I was looking forward to the most and am still confused as to why it didn't happen. Doesn't Armored Dracula look very similar to portraits of Vlad? The beard says it all.
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg2.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20140330093657%2Fcastlevania%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F4%2F47%2FArmoredDraculaSkin_%25284%2529.jpg%2F1024px-ArmoredDraculaSkin_%25284%2529.jpg&hash=b340679615ccfaceb2bc5adb861b0361)

Seeing him decimate Brotherhood soldiers and impale them one by one would have been a perfect Castlevania touch.

And speaking of the classic series, it seems like they gave him the same name and hinted that he was Vlad the Impaler but never truly confirmed it. Hints and references (like the room you encounter Death) seem thrown in here and there.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Belmontoya on October 19, 2014, 09:16:34 PM
I love it. LOS music in SCV4 style is great.

I felt the spirit of SCV4 music a lot in the LOS OST, so it's nice to hear something like that!
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Flame on October 19, 2014, 11:07:59 PM
It was really one of the plot elements that I was looking forward to the most and am still confused as to why it didn't happen. Doesn't Armored Dracula look very similar to portraits of Vlad? The beard says it all.
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg2.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20140330093657%2Fcastlevania%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F4%2F47%2FArmoredDraculaSkin_%25284%2529.jpg%2F1024px-ArmoredDraculaSkin_%25284%2529.jpg&hash=b340679615ccfaceb2bc5adb861b0361)

Seeing him decimate Brotherhood soldiers and impale them one by one would have been a perfect Castlevania touch.

And speaking of the classic series, it seems like they gave him the same name and hinted that he was Vlad the Impaler but never truly confirmed it. Hints and references (like the room you encounter Death) seem thrown in here and there.

how about his character art?

http://s23.postimg.org/dyxqejjih/Dracul.jpg (http://s23.postimg.org/dyxqejjih/Dracul.jpg)

it HAS the beard.

it feels to me, that when designing him for MoF and loS2, they decided to make him look still very much like Gabriel for association reasons, instead of going full out with a more dracula appearance like his art. He instead just looks like Gabriel gone shut-in for a few. (I mean thats what he is, but still)

also, i found this.

http://media1.gameinformer.com/filestorage/CommunityServer.Components.SiteFiles/imagefeed/featured/konami/castlevanialordsofshadow2/halloweentrailer/castlelos2_610.jpg (http://media1.gameinformer.com/filestorage/CommunityServer.Components.SiteFiles/imagefeed/featured/konami/castlevanialordsofshadow2/halloweentrailer/castlelos2_610.jpg)

more missed potential speaking to the idea of Dracula Haunting Modern day European streets.

First Return to the Castle - Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 2 OST (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkYnJKmsKLM#ws)


sorry guys but this track is incredible & fits right in with the series

as does this

Second Acolyte - Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 2 OST (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2Kzgf7hAKE#ws)

first hearing this in the overlook tower area, i think it was? blew my mind, it was just so fucking perfect. of course, parTICULARLY because of that sad violin. the child's voice makes it as well.

the underground gardens had a pretty damn fitting atmospheric track, that really felt kind of magical.

The Underground Gardens (Atmospheric) - Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 2 OST (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fz1wcVac8Q#ws)

and of course, most of the boss themes, particularly Carmilla and Death, i thought were plenty good enough to be "Castlevania" tunes.

No, the music wasnt particularly a problem I had, and if anything its biggest crime is reusing music from MoF. That felt really lazy, no matter how much they re-orchestrated it. the music did overall feels I dunno, more lacking than LoS1.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Anglachel on October 20, 2014, 06:25:24 PM
Speaking of music, one track that I've never found is the music that plays when Satan is first speaking to Zobek. It also plays in the ending Resurrection DLC, when Gabriel shatters the Combat Cross.

When comparing the two musics, I find the 1st game to have better atmospheric music whereas 2 has better fighting music. I mean, Toy Maker is just a powerhouse (love those bells(?) that play around 0:30 in the background.)

The Toy Maker (Grand Battle) - Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 2 OST (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjMgc9SNUEk#)

But in comparison, I find the best track from Lords 1 (atmospherically) to be Castle Hall. Sounds so perfectly grand and fitting for a Castlevania.

Castlevania Lords of Shadow Music - Castle Hall (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESuCH2E1k5U#)
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Flame on October 20, 2014, 10:10:58 PM
Man LoS1 really DID have much better music.

then again, LoS1 had better everything.

Funny how that works no? in comparison to shit like loS2 and to a lesser extent, MoF, loS1 is a pretty damn amazing Castlevania isn't it?

I almost kind of wish they hadn't done the Dracula plot, and instead left it with the bittersweet ending. On it's own, as a self contained CV story, it would have been fine.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Anglachel on October 21, 2014, 04:06:46 AM
I agree with that, and it is a beast of a Castlevania, which is why I'm gonna be replaying it soon.

Not only is it better, it's so wild how DIFFERENT of a game it is from LOS2. It's like the second game feels like a ripoff of the first game rather than a true sequel, like the B-movie sequel.

Even then, I also think the Dracula ending on it's own worked pretty well too.

I did read somewhere Dave Cox said they thought that the first game wouldn't take off and so they put the ending in there thinking that, if things didn't work out, players would at least be able to use their imaginations about what happens.

But I still have never encountered an ending that got me more excited for a sequel.

So here's a toast to MecurySteam's masterpiece.  (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.wikimg.net%2Fstrategywiki%2Fimages%2Fd%2Fd8%2FCastlevania_Holy_Water.png&hash=dfa0ef44e9d935daabd4e94e58cab08b)
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: uzo on October 21, 2014, 06:02:09 AM
Funny how that works no? in comparison to shit like loS2 and to a lesser extent, MoF, loS1 is a pretty damn amazing Castlevania isn't it?

No. It's sequel being shittier doesn't automatically make it stand with the rest of the franchise.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: darkmanx_429 on October 21, 2014, 06:10:19 AM
Almost all the concept art was missed opportunities at making the game greater than it could have been. Especially, after the superb first act of LOS2. If only Mercury Stream would of got their in-house shenanigans together...

Personally, the most fun I have had a with a "vampire" game (since Legacy of Kain) was Infamous:Festival of Blood.

I feel like if the game was made open world like that game LOS2 would of worked better.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: e105beta on October 21, 2014, 02:11:57 PM
No, the music wasnt particularly a problem I had, and if anything its biggest crime is reusing music from MoF. That felt really lazy, no matter how much they re-orchestrated it. the music did overall feels I dunno, more lacking than LoS1.

Part of me thinks the music was originally composed for LoS2 and that it got "bumped down", so to speak, for early use in Mirror of Fate. Not that it really matters, but given the overall difference in quality between the LoS2 tracks and the MoF tracks, I find it to be more likely. MoF's soundtrack was pretty phoned in outside of a couple of tracks.

Ahh, well, what should LoS2 had more of? Well, more castle, and more Victor, and more ending. Honestly, LoS2 is one of those games I feel needed LESS of bad things, more than it more of good things. IMO, when it was good, it was great, like the castle and the combat, but then it got slogged down in so much bad. Take those things out and the good things would have filled their place if designed correctly. But I guess its all about perspective whether you need more of something or less of something else.

For example, it needed more pre-apocalypse. If I'm going to play in a future setting, I want to play Dracula dealing with being 1000 years displaced, but you don't, because that world goes to shit in the first 15 minutes of the game. So there was no stalking commoners, no sneaking around rooftops, no ambushing people in back alleys, just rat stealth through well-maintained hi-tech facilities to avoid un-killable guards, and battles against steam-punk police on the rooftops.  The fact that the "end of days" countdown started at the very beginning of the game killed a lot of tension. The game needed a traditional buildup where you go through the city, get familiar with it and how it works, then in the late-second act everything goes to shit, and you actually feel it because you knew the city before it went up in flames. There's real impact there. You feel the threat.

Instead of that we got this back-and-forth hi-tension, low-tension deal. One second demons are invading Castlevania city, and the next second Dracula is chit-chatting with Trevor. One second you have this great scene with Marie and this great boss battle with Carmilla, but then all the build up is thrown away and you're just roaming around a burnt out city again and Marie is never again to be seen. I'm supposed to feel threatened by Satan, but I don't, because nothing ever gets worse. It just stays at a "Hey, everything is kind of bad" tension level for the whole game, unless you're roaming around the Castle which, while the best parts of the game, actually killed any sense of tension. They want to tell two different stories, and they both suffer for it.

The game also needed more of a sense of power. They gave you some cool powers, like possession and transformation, but you never get to do anything cool with them. Ok, I'm Dracula and I get to posses things, but only if I can sneak up on them and only for a limited amount of time, and I don't get to do anything cool with them? Lame. And while getting pwned by Golgoth guards is fine when I'm weak, but when I'm strong let me turn the tables. Let me feel powerful! Power isn't about getting railroaded through a very specific set of steps, with minimal opportunity for mistakes, its about freedom. If I'm going to jump into a Golgoth Guard, I want to bazooka the shit out of people with him. Hell, Mercurysteam should have preemptively taken a page from Shadow of Mordor's book. I'm Lord Dracula. Let me dominate and command monsters for. You don't need to let me do it to all of them, to maintain the challenge, but give me an ability where I can temporarily restore my own army in battle. That would be awesome.

I also didn't need this bizarre dimensional plot to visit the castle. Some supernatural force raising up Dracula's Castle, a castle which he then has to go and reclaim to wield against Satan (if Satan HAS to be in the game), would have been a far better situation than the nebulous Dracula blood that's kind of your enemy but kind of not leaking into the real world maybe once? I dunno, it didn't make a lot of sense. So LoS2 needed more sense.

Also, more consequences! This goes back to the tension thing, but when I beat Inner Dracula, it meant nothing. There was no sign, gameplay or plotwise, that anything changed, at least not in any significant extent. Like, I conquered my Inner Evil and got wings? Woohoo... Same thing happened when Victor died. For being the last Belmont, his death meant absolutely nothing, and it did absolutely nothing. And all the fetch quests, like for the Mirror, ultimately amounted to nothing. Really you spent 20 hours doing a whole lot of nothing.

Finally, more Satan. If you're going to bring back the Prince of Lies, make the fight even more spectacular then the last! Like 4 phases of evil. Start with the dumb whale, then the Alucard fight, then a Satan fight, then a SUPER Satan fight, and then top it all of with a weakened Dracula against a Belmont, or a redeemed Gabriel against his own inner darkness. THAT would have been sick.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Aiddon on October 21, 2014, 04:48:21 PM
No. It's sequel being shittier doesn't automatically make it stand with the rest of the franchise.

Seconded; just because a sequel is crap does not make its predecessor retroactively good. Maybe better by comparison, but that's not the same as actually being good. I think the thing that always annoyed me the most about LoS was how Cox tried time and again to justify the drastic change in lore and gameplay by bringing up the pre-MetroidVanias. Except if you think about it for a moment you realize that's a complete and utter lie.

And this can best be argued with a simple question: in the original games, what is your worst enemy? Because for the majority of the game it isn't boss monsters or fighting. No, your worst obstacles are things like bats, Medusa heads, and pitfalls. When you get down to it the old 'Vanias were platformers and the fact that Cox and MS never realized that shows that they had no clue what the series was about.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Dracula9 on October 21, 2014, 05:06:40 PM
Is it strange that above all the other crap in Lords 2, I wish that
(click to show/hide)

Also, uzo's right.
Quote from: uzo
No. It's sequel being shittier doesn't automatically make it stand with the rest of the franchise.

You guys (not just specifically people in this thread, but the fandom in general) collectively lost your fucking minds when LoS1 came out, complaining for months on end about how it wasn't a true Castlevania. Now that it's gotten two subpar sequels, it's suddenly a masterpiece that fits the series?

Doesn't work like that. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I suppose this can be chalked up to fanbase desperation due to lack of quality official releases (similar to how the Megaman fandom, for a good part, thinks Unlimited is the most amazing fangame ever made, when the reality is Unlimited is absolute shit for being a five-year project), but that doesn't justify the sudden 180.

Don't get me wrong, I've always enjoyed LoS on its own. It's by no means a perfect game, but it was definitely made with love where visual tone and style was concerned (yeah, yeah good graphics don't make a good game, blah blah), and I can detach my nostalgia for Castlevania when playing it enough to enjoy it for what it is.

But starting, essentially, a series of online riots over the first game, then switching gears to praising it when it got shitty sequels, is a bit confusing.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: theplottwist on October 21, 2014, 05:17:51 PM
Is it strange that above all the other crap in Lords 2, I wish that
(click to show/hide)

The whole Satan thing was a giant, messy crap. They made Satan himself buffer (for no apparent reason), they made you never fight Satan himself (for no apparent reason), they make Satan killable via Vampire Killer (for no apparent reason, and which could've been done in the first game), his death is utterly miserable (for no apparent reason). Satan doesn't feel like Satan. He doesn't feel threatening at all. Gabriel scared me much more than Satan, who's supposed to be the big shot.

Like e105beta put, this whole game is a giant amount of absolutelly nothings and no-apparent-reasons.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Dracula9 on October 21, 2014, 05:22:13 PM
Don't even get me started on buffing him out. That was a fucking joke. It worked okay in the Darksiders series but doing it here just made him feel so non-threatening to the point of being laughable. He might have been a copout antagonist in the first game, but he definitely looked the part and felt menacing. Hell, I have more of an issue giving him regular bright blue eyes than the actual buffing out. HOW DO YOU MAKE THE ULTIMATE FORCE OF EVIL LOOK MORE INTIMIDATING? TAKE AWAY HIS PREVIOUSLY INHUMAN EYES AND GIVE HIM HUMAN ONES. Great plan, MS.

And butt wings don't do much to make a silhouette intimidating, either.

Ultimately I think MS was trying to sell the "Gabula's more powerful than Satan himself" aspect a little too much. Which makes zero sense, as unexplained gameplay elements take more effort than writing a decent fucking plot, but it's MS. Sense isn't a requirement on their application, apparently.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: VladCT on October 21, 2014, 05:29:18 PM
Again, blame Alvarez. Guy got too cocky for his own good.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Dracula9 on October 21, 2014, 05:30:22 PM
Oh, believe me, I am.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: crisis on October 21, 2014, 06:15:11 PM
did yuo guys see stan's concept art of his 2nd form? it was gonna be a large multi-headed dargon.. why that wasnt implemented is beyond me

in the 1st game his eyes were a demonic yellow.. almost wicked looking. in this they are purple, not blue
i can accept the fact of Stan being part of the Castlevania mythos.. i know thats an unpopular idea around here. but i like the idea of Dracula essentially usurping Santa for Hell's throne. that hasnt exactly been executed in the los-saga, but in a future reboot, something like that wouldnt be a bad idea. could be a story in a prequel game, just to showcase why Dracula is considered the head honcho prince of Darkness. it could be pretty phat if done right


not all of los2 was utter shit guys! the castle areas are simply breathtaking, arguably the most beautiful castle the series has seen thus far. altho some suttle nuances wouldve been greatly appreciated, such as in the library leading to Carmilla's chamber, before you enter a room you see books floating around with the pages been turned by an invisible entity, until you enter the room & they suddenly drop to the ground lifeless. altho those few moments when a swarm of bats would fly thru the screen, walking thru the castle courtyard/balcony with it literally bathed in moonlight with thousands of stars, Dracula slitting his wrists as a "blood offering" to those stone idols, the essence of the castle itself begging & pleading for Dracula to stay [as his power gives them "life" and to forget his past since they are his family now]; these moments were pure excellence & i loved every bit of it

or take a cue from our lord Symphony; por ejemplo in 1 area of the castle like the hallway you can see the shadow of a giant spider-octopus creature crawling in the distance.. altho you never actually encounter it. ya know like the giant Peeping Eye staring at you in the Marble Gallery background in Symphony. that creeped the hell outta me

also the Toy Maker's section was pretty cool. the entire "reconstruct the tragic tale" was unique & something the series hasnt done before, and i can appreciate that. his boss battle was fun too, how he's pretty much talking shit throughout the fight & also giving backstory, pretty much narrating the entire fight. that was cool & unique. shame most ppl overlook/ignore this :/

ya dig what am saying folks? its the details like that we love & prolly wont catch until our 2nd playthru. the los2 DLC had hints of it, with Gabrian's bloody scribbles in latin all over the FOrbidden Chamber of him cursing Yahweh & the Brotherhood for betraying him. the DLC despite being short was pretty good & challenging. i dunno why you guys didnt like it, prunyuu~
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: VladCT on October 21, 2014, 06:31:39 PM
It's not that the entirety of LoS2 was shit, it's just that the shit in LoS2 stands out far too glaringly compared to the good stuff, and the fact that the fault pretty much belongs to one jackass sitting at the top instead of an entire team of jackasses makes it even worse.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Anglachel on October 21, 2014, 06:37:01 PM
It bogged it down so much, you wouldn't even think this is a Castlevania game.

The 1st game had pretty good references, easter eggs, and a general Castlevania atmosphere to it so it worked pretty well. The second one feels like a game based off Castlevania, not Castlevania itself.

And I agree, crisis. The creepy stuff is something all Castlevania games need. The scrolls in Mirror of Fate worked well, like the human femur one.  :o

Other honorable mentions are the demon in HoD that you kill with the weight but never see, and the impaled corpses where Death takes your stuff.

But you know what I wanted to do? I wanted to be able to block with Dracula's cape. THAT would have been badass and we saw it in MOF. Really cool.

Also needed more Castle. Imagine Castle Pandemonium vs Castlevania. The two demon castles squared off against one another in the end of days. Their masters fighting for dominance.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: theplottwist on October 21, 2014, 07:05:14 PM
did yuo guys see stan's concept art of his 2nd form? it was gonna be a large multi-headed dargon.. why that wasnt implemented is beyond me

in the 1st game his eyes were a demonic yellow.. almost wicked looking. in this they are purple, not blue
i can accept the fact of Stan being part of the Castlevania mythos.. i know thats an unpopular idea around here. but i like the idea of Dracula essentially usurping Santa for Hell's throne. that hasnt exactly been executed in the los-saga, but in a future reboot, something like that wouldnt be a bad idea. could be a story in a prequel game, just to showcase why Dracula is considered the head honcho prince of Darkness. it could be pretty phat if done right

(https://beladraculalugosi.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/santa-vs-dracula.jpg)
"Now now, old geezer, it's time for me to take hold of your throne!"
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Dracula9 on October 21, 2014, 08:07:30 PM
in the 1st game his eyes were a demonic yellow.. almost wicked looking. in this they are purple, not blue

I'm colorblind, crisis.  :-X

And while I'm inclined to agree with most of your post, I don't think Mercurysteam's problem has ever been its intent, but its execution. Yes, there was that whole "forget everything you know about Castlevania" shit, but I honestly think the plot approach to the trilogy could have been the game(s) to usurp SotN had MS done shit well. But they got lazy, used a lot of copouts, left half the trilogy unexplained or poorly explained, and still think their shit doesn't stink.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Kingshango on October 21, 2014, 08:16:32 PM
I might be alone in this but I think Satan should have been out of the picture entirely and Zobek should have been the main villain. He's more responsible for Gabriel's anguish than anyone else, Satan just felt forced in both LOS1 and 2.


Plus the fight with Zobek>>>Satancard, hell the fight with Zobek's Lieutenant>>>>>Satancard.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Aiddon on October 22, 2014, 04:52:04 AM
I'm colorblind, crisis.  :-X

And while I'm inclined to agree with most of your post, I don't think Mercurysteam's problem has ever been its intent, but its execution. Yes, there was that whole "forget everything you know about Castlevania" shit, but I honestly think the plot approach to the trilogy could have been the game(s) to usurp SotN had MS done shit well. But they got lazy, used a lot of copouts, left half the trilogy unexplained or poorly explained, and still think their shit doesn't stink.

Thing is, even its intent was questionable. At the end of the day, LoS was NEVER supposed to be a Castlevania game until apparently MS kissed Kojima's ass or something and got the franchise's name slapped on the cover. So I question any sort of respect for the franchise as they weren't interested enough to use its gameplay, lore, characters, music, aesthetic, etc but took no shame in exploiting the name.

I do find it funny how many times this has happened as of late. Dev slaps name of famous franchise on the cover of a game that clearly has no stylistic, thematic, or other connections to franchise, people raise the painfully obvious question of why the game exists or why they're using the series' name, dev gets pissy and calls its critics a bunch of "fanboys" like it somehow negates legit arguments, game is released and proves to disappoint in one way or another, and logic and reality shine through. Though it's fascinating at despite how many times this happens that devs and publishers STILL don't have any sort of pattern recognition and refuse to learn from it.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Dracula9 on October 22, 2014, 02:57:16 PM
Quote
...Dev slaps name of famous franchise on the cover of a game that clearly has no stylistic, thematic, or other connections to franchise...

Yes, because as we all know, Lords of Shadow and Castlevania have nothing in common. There definitely aren't any warriors with whips traversing Gothic castles and magical forests and dark realms slaying vampires and other creatures of the night in Lords of Shadow. Not even a little bit.

That's because one of two things usually happens; either the whole dev team are a bunch of assholes, or specific people, usually very high on the decision-making ladder, are assholes. In the case of Lords 2, a large amount of the shitty decisions can be blamed almost exclusively on the one douchebag sitting at the top of the team. You can't blame the entire dev team or publisher of "not learning," because the dev team follows the will of the producer, and the publisher just releases it. Konami thinking this would be a solidly amazing reboot of the series was functionally no different from Capcom thinking that shit iOS game XOver would be a good 25th anniversary game for Megaman. Companies make decisions that backfire. Sometimes it's them being stupid, but more often it has to do with dozens of situational factors that most gamers have zero understanding of. You can't blame the idiocy of one particular jackass on the entire Lords 2 team or Konami. It's just not fair.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: flyingchai on October 22, 2014, 05:17:41 PM
As far as LOS2 music with strings goes, Carmilla's boss battle theme has to be my favourite, and it indeed has pronounced strings. Anyone else notice (or care to) how appropriate the ascending strings beginning are starting at 3:22? As if it refers to the real Carmilla's ascension into Heaven. The subsequent descending strings at 4:42 signify how in the end, she left her dark side behind and became a Lord of Shadow before being meeting her end. Got to love the chanting of "Cometissa" at 3:42, which means "Countess" in Latin. If I only I knew what all of the Latin being chanted was. :-D

 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AStQSVbSRI[/url)
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Anglachel on October 22, 2014, 07:20:41 PM
That's cool! I would have never noticed that had you not told us. And yeah, little touches like that Latin in the music definitely add to the experience.

While still on the topic of music (And even Carmilla's music), this track (not on the OST) sounds like it could be converted to 8/16 bit and feel right at home in Castlevania.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRfnb3ugcD0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRfnb3ugcD0)

Sounds a little like Bloody Tears, imo.

Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Dracula9 on October 23, 2014, 04:11:45 AM
If I only I knew what all of the Latin being chanted was. :-D

I know a bit of Latin. I'll consult my various dictionaries and books and see if I can translate it. No promises, though.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Mike Belmont on October 23, 2014, 05:09:23 PM
Ok, I admit (and is not that hard) that LoS 2 improves a lot in terms of music (as always, that´s my opinion). My favorites tracks are:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2-2MG52wog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2-2MG52wog#ws) (Dracula´s Theme)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6a9r355vLQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6a9r355vLQ#) (Titanic Struggle)

As for CV music, is still hard to me to admit it as part of the saga. But in this game is get really close :).

As for the thread, did anyone mention that if the game had less (if not none) stealth elements, it would be better? I always think that such elements feel so rushed in the game. The bosses were great, being the best the Zobek/Death one. I would prefer he as the final boss fight than the Satan one. Oh, and I would change the incursion of Satan as the main antagonist since the beggining of the trilogy :P...

EDITED:

I might be alone in this but I think Satan should have been out of the picture entirely and Zobek should have been the main villain. He's more responsible for Gabriel's anguish than anyone else, Satan just felt forced in both LOS1 and 2.


Plus the fight with Zobek>>>Satancard, hell the fight with Zobek's Lieutenant>>>>>Satancard.

I just saw your post, pal and no, you are not alone in that statement.
Title: Re: Something(s) I thought Lords of Shadow 2 should have had more of.
Post by: Flame on October 23, 2014, 07:34:48 PM
I like how Satan's battle theme, in the LoS1 Final battle reprise, has chants of "Castlevania" in it.

http://youtu.be/9QBADjkCgiM?t=5m02s (http://youtu.be/9QBADjkCgiM?t=5m02s)