Topic: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

I believe you have missed the point, TheouAegis.
Quote from: TheouAegis on Today at 01:54:52 PM

Miyamoto never was progressive socially. He's too old-fashioned. I think he just has a twisted sense of humor sometimes.

Ok Jorge, ball's in your court. Post as many examples as you can find of women being abducted and escaping on their own. Let's be fair: post examples of men too. I don't mean in video games and movies or TV shows, I mean in real life. An abductee is usually damned lucky to even still be alive. Most of the time, a police officer or military squad saves the person. Yes, video games often make it seem so easy to escape, but no one would play the game if you had to sit there for 32 hours waiting for your abductor let his guard down. I've often played games that start with you trying to escape and have literally blurted out at the TV, "That would never happen in real life!" The damsel-in-distress in video games, except for a few cases, is always the ideal -- the guy shows up to defeat the villain and save the girl. Would girl in video no.1 rather have the game show the girl slap the guy, lock herself in her room shooting heroin, then slice her wrists open? That might pass in a N.A.R.C. sequel, but not in Mario.

Normally I don't counterpoint with quotes, but with such a complex reply, I think it's warranted.

On the point above, the reason I say you missed the point entirely is not because kidnapping/abduction doesn't happen, but rather because it is perceived to happen primarily to women in the media (by media, I mean the portrayal of said event in books, games, movies, etc.).  And when it does happen, the women in said media become objectified; their plot essentially ends and it becomes the drive for the hero to continue his quest.  Did you even watch the video?  Women become the prize to be won.  They hardly ever do anything afterwards.  Their role in the story can be summed up in a blurb "your princess is in another castle".

However, when it happens to men in games (again, showcased in the video), men's role becomes active; it becomes a quest to break out.  Happens in Metal Gear, Illusion of Gaia, and other games.  The male character is an active character, while the woman becomes a passive afterthought.  And this shouldn't be.

To pretend that it doesn't happen, or to say 'well that's the way it is' or 'well that's realistic', is to turn a blind eye to the portrayal.
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And she showed Irene from Ninja Gaiden in that video! Irene's not a damsel in distress capable of saving herself! She only had a gun! Guns don't do shit to demons in Ninja Gaiden, you need a flippin' sword and fire jutsu.

Again, missed point.  Fantastical scenario aside, the role of the woman becomes the prize to be won.  Like the first video shows... it's no longer about her.  The woman has become 'the ball' in a basketball game between the hero and the villain, to be sought after and be the hero's until the next plot abduction happens.  Rarely ever does the scenario get flipped.
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The girl in the last video posted essentially argues that Hollywood created feminism. Feminists created it. Hollywood only shows what the writers see. I see those girls in the vids and they talk exactly like the Hollywood feminists. The Hollywood extreme feminist I never have approved of is the buzz-cut or butch feminist. That's a dyke, not a feminist.  If she said, "Hollywood makes all feminists out to be dykes," I'd agree with that.

"Hollywood only shows what the writers see".
Exactly.  The writers are perpetuating the trope, rather than going past it.
I am hoping that within my lifetime this problem is overcome.
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And I didn't insult anyone, I criticized her looks. Girl 1 is ugly in a flannel shirt. Who the fuck even wears flannel these days? That's a lumberjack's outfit. Girl or guy, flannel is a fashion faux pas.

You criticized her looks... in an insulting way.  And in doing so, you are invoking a fallacy that what she says has no merit because of her looks, and that the only reason she's even speaking out is because she's jealous or bitter that no one would rescue her.  That would be the Ad Hominem fallacy; Attacking the traits of an opponent as a means to invalidate their arguments.

...which paints you in a very bad light and did not need to be said, to illustrate your point. 
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If Rush Limbaugh coined Feminazi, I'd believe it. That guy's an idiot. I tried watching his show when he was on TV in my college days and I couldn't stand listening to him. Should change his name to Bullroarer Rush. A feminazi is a girl that thinks women are equal to men and should all work together for the benefit of the whole country by waging war against Jews. For Rush to even throw out the word "Nazi" discredits him completely.

I don't even know how to respond to this part.

[Abnormal Freak]

I'll just leave these here:

http://youtu.be/p6gLmcS3-NI

http://youtu.be/LpFk5F-S_hI

Everything about this woman screams "obnoxious twat" to me. Not that this warrants the verbal abuse and threats of violence she received, but it's kind of cute the way she uses those reactions to "further her point," instead of addressing any critical analysis of her "work."

I won't bother watching her videos.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Everything about this woman screams "obnoxious twat" to me. Not that this warrants the verbal abuse and threats of violence she received, but it's kind of cute the way she uses those reactions to "further her point," instead of addressing any critical analysis of her "work."

The same could be said of all Youtube vlogs.

[Lelygax]

The same could be said of all Youtube vlogs.

Your words are empty as your soul. Mankind ill doesnt need a savior such as you.

LOL

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

What is a VLOG!
A miserable little pile of opinions.

But enough talk, Have At You!

[TheouAegis]

"Ow! It's pinching!"

"Oomph! Right in the shiny part!"

That was funny.


No one has ever said the girl NEVER fights back. It's just not shown that the girl fights back. Not that tit happens all that much very effectively in real life. Maybe it's a lesson for kids, too: If you ever get abducted, don't fight back, wait for a hero to come save you. I'm saying I acknowledge that abductions happen to just about anyone. And I told you too that a game where a guy busts out of captivity more easily than it is to break into a bunker has always been a peeve of mine. I always thought a prison break should have been near the final level of a game because it's harder to break out than it is to break in.

Of course women are objects, as are guys. Do you have substance? Does she have substance? Yes to both, so everyone's an object. You can sell a guy and you can sell a girl because they are both objects. Girls aren't simple abstract thoughts that supposedly created the world with a blink of an eye and wriggle of the nose. Every person is an object and every person has a value. At least the damsels-in-distress in video games are shown to have worth.

Does everyone here simply want a video game that's more realistic where a girl gets kidnapped and the protagonist says, "Someone please save my girlfriend for me!"? Or maybe a game where the guy gets abducted and the female protagonist says, "Screw that loser. If he can't fend for  himself, I don't want anything more to do with him. Look at me, I can do better than him and everyone knows it."?

[Phoenix7786]

Wow, someone is guilty of male prejudice.

Actually, though the original article talks about the core Mario games, in which Peach is indeed the damsel in distress, when one plays the side-story Mario games, one can clearly see Peach's point of view on a lot of things, and she actually manages to get a lot done.

Or how in Super Mario RPG she is fully playable, and without a doubt the best healer in the game.

Honestly look at how much ass Sheva kicks in RE5. Chris and her are mutually beneficial to one another, are equally helpful to one another, and even save each other's lives. She is definitely no damsel in distress.

[Lelygax]

No one has ever said the girl NEVER fights back. It's just not shown that the girl fights back. Not that tit happens all that much very effectively in real life.

Not that tit happens all that much very effectively in real life.

xD

Also I dont see kids arquing like "Hey, they kidnapped this kid in this game" or a dog "Woof! Woof dog Kwoofnap woof woof game!". We needed a motivation in the story that is to save someone that we love, someone that is important for us, its cool how the great masses finds ever something to nitpick, Its like racism, we need and want equally rights and treatments, but in Brazil they did a LOT of laws to benefit only black people and a LOT of laws to benefit only womans. So I ask you, where is the equally things in there? Its like the politicians do a half-done law and says "hey, lets do that so they stop protesting, that should make they shut up and forget the main point", and guess what? Its working until now and no one seems to notice that. Why? Because they didn't want to lose their benefits! I doesnt know if in the rest of the world its like that too, but atleast here it how it happens.

 A woman beat a man? Haha what a pathetic man.
 A man beat a woman?  Coward!
 A black guy uses racism? We need to shut up.
 A white man uses racism? We need to go to jail.

Im not talking about right or wrong, but I really doesnt see what part of this is equal. Its only unfair and while they dont turn this world in a real equality instead of a "fabricated" one, we will still argue more and more for a thing that isn't even equal since the beggining. No, I dont want to beat womans and Im not a racist, but I've seen a plenty of people abusing from this special benefits to prejudice innocent persons, its rare but still happens.

[Abnormal Freak]

The same could be said of all Youtube vlogs.

How many "vloggers" attempt to do a so-called critical analysis on a subject based on their own thesis, which gains almost $200,000 in Kickstarter donations for research and a series of videos to be made on the matter? ($200k that I doubt she would have gotten had she not played the victim card after the 4chan morons stepped in.) This isn't just some vlogger; she's out to make a mighty big point and wanting others to either think like her or feel guilty for having different ideas. This ain't the humbleness of a boogie2988, et al.

[Lelygax]

What?! She wants money? All that money?! It sounds like oportunism to me, I thought that she only wanted some "likes" and "retweets". I liked her video, but that isn't cool.

[TheouAegis]

@Lelygax in reply 2 posts up
That's a case of politicians bending to one "political party". That's just plain bad politics, not the fault of the Equal Rights Movement. The real kicker is people who are for Equal Rights for blacks aren't always for Equal Rights for gays or Equal Rights for Women. Rather, it's broken down into subgroups who all find one thing in common:

Black Gay Supporters
Black Straight Male supporters
Black Male Supporters
Black Straight supporters
Black Female supporters
Black Straight Female supporters
Black Gay Female SUpporters
Black Gay Supporters
White Gay Supporters
White Female Supporters
Gay Female Supporters
...And so on

There are some people out there that are fully for equal rights, but I think most people don't actually believe in full equal rights. Even if you found someone that's entirely in favor of equal rights for blacks, Hispanics, Asians, indians, whites, men and women, gays and lesbians, transgendered and bisexual, bestial and zoophilial, etc. etc., they'd probably still be pro-My Country and anti-Their Country. People will always be opposed to equal rights for SOMEONE because if everyone gets equal rights, then they won't get special rights and that's just not fair.

A rights extremist though would never be happy with a middle ground and would never agree to meet at a median. Those people do exist and they are the ones represented by Hollywood. If the soft-spoken fems want to erase that stereotype, they'll need to silence the more outspoken extremists.

[Lelygax]

People will always be opposed to equal rights for SOMEONE because if everyone gets equal rights, then they won't get special rights and that's just not fair.

And thats the problem, to me the only cases of special rights that are fair are for people with advanced age, pregnants, people with babies and people with some kind of disease.

[Ratty]

Everything about this woman screams "obnoxious twat" to me. Not that this warrants the verbal abuse and threats of violence she received, but it's kind of cute the way she uses those reactions to "further her point," instead of addressing any critical analysis of her "work."

I won't bother watching her videos.

I'm here to listen to and judge her thoughts on video games based on their own merits, not her personal life or history. EDIT: Though reading your post below apparently she's a sex-negative feminist which is very unfortunate and backward, but we'll see if and how this colors her commentary on women in video games outside of straight porn titles.

What?! She wants money? All that money?! It sounds like oportunism to me, I thought that she only wanted some "likes" and "retweets". I liked her video, but that isn't cool.

When she announced her video series many gamers assumed since she was a feminist that all she was going to do would be bash video games.
They bitched and moaned so loudly that she would dare to have an opinion on games that thousands of people heard about it who never would have otherwise. And when she set up a kickstarter to fund the series (for expenses like buying the video games to play for research, and those fancy intro animations) she got way more money than anyone expected. She was sort of a minor celebrity for a while as a result, she even did a TED Talk, all because a bunch of anons couldn't stand her having free speech and wanted to troll her into silence.

No one has ever said the girl NEVER fights back. It's just not shown that the girl fights back.

If it's not shown or mentioned then it's not part of the story. And it all becomes about the male hero's journey, not hers. The problem isn't that this happens, it's that it happens SO MUCH that in games women are usually interchangeable with inanimate objects rather than real characters.

Not that tit happens all that much very effectively in real life. Maybe it's a lesson for kids, too: If you ever get abducted, don't fight back, wait for a hero to come save you. I'm saying I acknowledge that abductions happen to just about anyone.

Yes they happen to just about everyone. Then why it is it that 99.9% of the time when someone in a game is abducted it's a female who has to be saved by a male? So that she might as well be inanimate stolen goods. Meanwhile if a man is kidnapped in a story he is almost always shown to at least try to escape.

Of course women are objects, as are guys. Do you have substance? Does she have substance? ...At least the damsels-in-distress in video games are shown to have worth.

And what is the worth they are shown to have? A brilliant personality, are they strong, smart, resourceful? No, they sit there quietly and look pretty waiting for men to rescue them. Now just try to remember you've seen a male character portrayed with those qualities that you would call "positive".

Does everyone here simply want a video game that's more realistic where a girl gets kidnapped and the protagonist says, "Someone please save my girlfriend for me!"? Or maybe a game where the guy gets abducted and the female protagonist says, "Screw that loser. If he can't fend for  himself, I don't want anything more to do with him. Look at me, I can do better than him and everyone knows it."?

Since it's equally unlikely for a man as a woman to go out and fight an army by themselves to rescue someone, why can't we have more strong female characters out fighting to save their loved ones? The females in the Streets of Rage and Final Fight series worked as well as the men, so why are such characters so rare in video games at large? (And why did the girls have to wait for sequels to get introduced?)

And I didn't insult anyone, I criticized her looks. Girl 1 is ugly in a flannel shirt. Who the fuck even wears flannel these days? That's a lumberjack's outfit. Girl or guy, flannel is a fashion faux pas.

Jorge already addressed most of what I was going to respond to in that post but wow, I just have to say this disturbs me a little bit. Her looks have no bearing on her argument at all, would you talk about her voice it was audio only? And the real question- would you question the validity of a man's views on video games based on whether he was wearing a plaid shirt or not?

PS- https://www.google.com/search?q=girl+chews+through+ropes+escapes+news

[Abnormal Freak]

What?! She wants money? All that money?! It sounds like oportunism to me, I thought that she only wanted some "likes" and "retweets". I liked her video, but that isn't cool.

I goofed; in my head I remembered around $198,000 but of her $6,000 goal, she raised $152,922 more for a grand total of $158,922. And she missed her deadline for the first video by like six months or something, lol.

Nearly $160k is certainly a lot of money, though. Is she using it all for research, and what is this research: buying loads of video games to play and say they're all sexist? (Regardless of the fact that the aforementioned Legacy of Darkness apparently shown in a video has a female protagonist in addition to its damsel in distress at the beginning.)

I found this to be a fascinating read:

http://www.kentaiblog.com/2013/03/the-sarkeesian-apocalypse-is-nigh.html

[Lelygax]

Its hilarious, a bunch of people really needing money in the world and they donate that amount for this?! The donator doesnt even asked for that much. Im disgusted. Thats one of these stories thats better doesnt know about, but now that I already read this the harm has already been made. Why they have thrown so many money away if she only asked for $6,000? I could even understand if she really needed that amount, but she doesnt. Also research about old games could be done totally for free, unless they are extremely obscure and not in english.

edit: found this on the commentaries from Abnormal Freak's link

Anita Sarkeesian Part 1: The College Graduate

Anita Sarkeesian Part 2: Burqa Beach Party

I will watch it now. So I dont know the exact content of these videos yet. Only that it talks about this girl.

edit2: By what I've seen for now, its a bit intrusive.