Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Hayoam on March 31, 2020, 01:13:19 PM
-
Hey I'm back
Haven't been here in a long time and nobody remember me, maybe I should call myself Forgotten One. ;D ;D
Anyway for a series that consider Christianity as a force of good and revolves around it this animation sure put Christianity in a bad light which goes against the core concept of Castlevania good and evil powers.
- Sypha Belnades has turned from a Pure Christian Hunter to an edgy Atheist from Avatar who want to Destroy the Church.
We can't have one of the main characters be Christian because then Christians will be good in which it goes against the anti-Christians propaganda.
- Christians bring misfortune on people again.
- The One Who's Many (Legion) It's based on a Christian story where Jesus Heals a man whom was Prossessed by a large number of demons.
In the animation we see the people prossessed wear Crown of Thorn which a symbol of Jesus so this takes the story and flips it on it's head by implying:
Jesus instead of healing people he unleash demons on them prossessing them, and Jesus is the man on tower and all the other mindless people are Christians.
- The philosopher bug who came and say basically Christianity is Evil to a Muslim.
- The church presumably find the truth about their faith and flip the statue of Jesus to point under to hell is another way of saying Christianity is bad and you're going to hell for it.
Like really really wtf, I'm not religious but this is pathetic to be honest.
Adaptation yeah right more like hate propaganda.
-
I mean, I wouldn’t declare the show “anti-Christianity propaganda” at all. If anything, it’s trying to depict the world as more than just “black & white.” In the real world, our world, there were a lot of Popes that were shady & did messed up things, they weren’t the shining examples of good that religion paints them to be.
Sypha had a paper thin personality in the game(s), barely any at all.
You said “in the Jesus story...” emphasis on story. These are all just stories, nothing more. Stories are subject to interpretation, this animation is interpreting the lore differently. We’re not allowed to have different interpretations anymore?
This can trigger a looong debate so... umm yeah the show features a lot of fucked up things, some I’m cool with some I dislike some I’m indifferent towards, but humanity has done a lot of fucked up things in the name of religion, too. So I’m just “whatever” about the whole thing
-
In the Middle Ages it was also insanely easy to end up being labelled a heretic and be excommunicated from the church. So in that respect that’s something is actually portraying pretty well if anything. Things weren’t quite so tolerant of different church factions coexisting as they do today, and the slightest transgression, even belonging to the ‘wrong’ faction du jour could land you in very deep water.
As for Sypha having issues with ‘God’, in season three remember she does say that she’s more positive in her views of Jesus as a figure.
-
I love how when it comes to religion everyone defends Warren Ellis by claiming he’s just approaching religion from a less black and white perspective. How exactly is portraying Christians as either stupid or evil not black and white?
If he wanted his interpretation to be less black and white he would have included a significant character who would provide an alternative perspective. But he doesn’t. Despite having plenty of opportunity for it.
The writer is a proud atheist and believes anyone religious is insane, the effect of this on how he has interpreted the source material is pretty apparent.
-
The writer is a proud atheist and believes anyone religious is insane
The term you (and Ellis, actually) are looking for is "anti-theist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism)".
An atheist doesn't give a shit about whether you believe or not. They simply don't believe themselves.
An anti-theist though is the type who will declare "a pox on your house if you believe in something so STUuuuuUUuUUuuPiiIiiiIiID as "god"!"
An atheist does not care whether you go to church, and there's a non-zero chance they'll go out of friendly solidarity if invited to go to church by a friend.
An anti-theist will be insulted that you would invite them to something so blatantly horrid and treat such an invitation as an attack in their person of some degree or another.
It's not enough for them to disbelieve; they feel they must tear down anyone who DOES believe because the anti-theist believes that religious belief is wrong and sinful. The irony of this steelclad belief is generally obvious to everyone but them.
And the way Warren Ellis depicts religion definitely fits into the manner anti-theists typically portray the Catholic church: as a diseased and wholly corrupt institution that brings nothing but oppression and misery into the world with no potential for goodness whatsoever.
-
I mean, I wouldn’t declare the show “anti-Christianity propaganda” at all. If anything, it’s trying to depict the world as more than just “black & white.” In the real world, our world, there were a lot of Popes that were shady & did messed up things, they weren’t the shining examples of good that religion paints them to be.
Sypha had a paper thin personality in the game(s), barely any at all.
You said “in the Jesus story...” emphasis on story. These are all just stories, nothing more. Stories are subject to interpretation, this animation is interpreting the lore differently. We’re not allowed to have different interpretations anymore?
This can trigger a looong debate so... umm yeah the show features a lot of fucked up things, some I’m cool with some I dislike some I’m indifferent towards, but humanity has done a lot of fucked up things in the name of religion, too. So I’m just “whatever” about the whole thing
Same with everything else in real life painted in games or movies but we are talking about Castlevania where the protagonist always used Crosses, Holy Water, Bibles and Grand Cross crush to vanquish evil.
I would Agree with you if there weren't so many Christianity is bad stuff in there.
LOS is black and White not this.
Sypha barely been in any games so....
What we see here is not interpreting the lore differently? More like flip or reverse. Not sure if you understand the word "interpreting ".
-
The term you (and Ellis, actually) are looking for is "anti-theist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism)".
An atheist doesn't give a shit about whether you believe or not. They simply don't believe themselves.
An anti-theist though is the type who will declare "a pox on your house if you believe in something so STUuuuuUUuUUuuPiiIiiiIiID as "god"!"
An atheist does not care whether you go to church, and there's a non-zero chance they'll go out of friendly solidarity if invited to go to church by a friend.
An anti-theist will be insulted that you would invite them to something so blatantly horrid and treat such an invitation as an attack in their person of some degree or another.
It's not enough for them to disbelieve; they feel they must tear down anyone who DOES believe because the anti-theist believes that religious belief is wrong and sinful. The irony of this steelclad belief is generally obvious to everyone but them.
And the way Warren Ellis depicts religion definitely fits into the manner anti-theists typically portray the Catholic church: as a diseased and wholly corrupt institution that brings nothing but oppression and misery into the world with no potential for goodness whatsoever.
Yup that seems to be the case.
He really let himself go with this one.
-
Regarding S3: Sypha says Jesus is cool, the bigoted Christians are bigoted against literal demons that would slaughter everyone if Isaac wasn't controlling them and the monks turn the cross upside down when they start following orders from a demon/go mad (nevermind the fact that its a previous castlevania symbol)
S1 was very much anti-catholicism but afterwards it's relatively chill
-
Same with everything else in real life painted in games or movies but we are talking about Castlevania where the protagonist always used Crosses, Holy Water, Bibles and Grand Cross crush to vanquish evil.
I would Agree with you if there weren't so many Christianity is bad stuff in there.
LOS is black and White not this.
Sypha barely been in any games so....
What we see here is not interpreting the lore differently? More like flip or reverse. Not sure if you understand the word "interpreting ".
I guess what he’s doing with the show doesn’t offend me as much as other people. And apparently it doesn’t offend Konami, or Netflix since it got renewed
I’m not going to dig into Warren Ellis’ background because I just don’t care, so the “ugh, how dare he!” criticisms people have against him are funny to me. There are a lot of stuff in the games themselves that mock Christianity, too (and no I’m not going to write a laundry list of examples, it’s been done to death)
-
While I do believe that every criticism put towards Christianity is well-deserved, my issue with the criticism in the show is that it is oftentimes too ham-fisted and not period-appropriate. If the show was set in modern times, by all means, but back then, in European lands, criticism towards Christianity was met with severe punishments and, more often than not, death. I can see our three protagonists being critical of the church, for reasons canon to the games, but to outright hate it also seems misplaced, as they do help in the battle against Dracula. I'm reminded of Jonathan Morris and how he disapproved of Vincent charging money for his help, but he ultimately went along with it. Ultimately, I think it is fitting to the setting and to the characters, but sometimes it is laid on too thick, for the same reason.
-
There are a lot of stuff in the games themselves that mock Christianity, too (and no I’m not going to write a laundry list of examples, it’s been done to death)
I don't expect a laundry list but I'm honestly having a hard time recalling any instances where the games outright mock Christianity. If you don't want to provide specific examples then at least point me to where I can find some.
-
I don't expect a laundry list but I'm honestly having a hard time recalling any instances where the games outright mock Christianity. If you don't want to provide specific examples then at least point me to where I can find some.
yeah... if anything the games use christian symbolic imagery and christ himself to symbolize safety and power against dracula and his horde
hell, even dracula quotes the fucking bible and claims to have learned a "life lesson" from it
-
I don't expect a laundry list but I'm honestly having a hard time recalling any instances where the games outright mock Christianity. If you don't want to provide specific examples then at least point me to where I can find some.
I don't remember any either. The only times I recall the Church being bad in games was when they fucked Belmonts over for having supernatural powers of sorts so they excomunicated and when they fucked Leon cuz he wanted to fight monsters instead of heretics.
-
Yeah, I really never thought Christianity was portrayed as really bad in any of the games. As mentioned before the church screws over the Belmonts and burn Lisa (I thought they were the ones behind that) but really besides that the games but a lot of pro Christian. I mean the Belmonts (who I would argue are the heroes of the series) throw crosses and holy water. One of their big attacks summon giant crosses with Christ on them. I believe in CoD Trevor yells "holy power" when doing one of his attacks. My point is they're pretty righteous guys. I understand why Dracula would be opposed to it because he's a bad guy.
In terms of the show, I could understand why they made the church bad guys in season 1 because that's how it was kinda told in the games. After that then yeah idk why they took the approach they did. Then again, after reading of certain events in season 3, I stopped watching after a few episodes.
-
What till he finds out Baphomet is in Dragon Ball now... :o
-
What till he finds out Baphomet is in Dragon Ball now... :o
They should get Guts from Berserk to come in and sword out goat-d*** with his massive cleaver, just like the manga! XD
-
Anyway for a series that consider Christianity as a force of good and revolves around it this animation sure put Christianity in a bad light which goes against the core concept of Castlevania good and evil powers.
Christianity not so much. Christians (notably fire and brimstone ignoramuses and institutionalized, politically influential religious organizations and those that abuse that institutional power), sure, and I do agree that the show is a bit obtuse with its criticism but it's not exactly a subtle show in general.
- Sypha Belnades has turned from a Pure Christian Hunter to an edgy Atheist from Avatar who want to Destroy the Church.
We can't have one of the main characters be Christian because then Christians will be good in which it goes against the anti-Christians propaganda.
Tbh it's a vast improvement over the Judgment Sypha which used her belonging to the Church to turn her into an insufferable bigot, something I imagine you also would have had a problem with as well. :-/
- Christians bring misfortune on people again.
Yeah, Christians never do that, and neither do people who have predominance in a culture in general. *rolls eyes*
Show has good Christians, too. Hilarious how a couple of portrayals of shitty Christians get people torqued out of shape when by and large Christian portrayals in media (and even in Castlevania media) are overwhelmingly positive.
- The One Who's Many (Legion) It's based on a Christian story where Jesus Heals a man whom was Prossessed by a large number of demons.
In the animation we see the people prossessed wear Crown of Thorn which a symbol of Jesus so this takes the story and flips it on it's head by implying:
Jesus instead of healing people he unleash demons on them prossessing them, and Jesus is the man on tower and all the other mindless people are Christians.
Legion in the show is based off of Legion in the game. The crown of thorns in this instance is probably the only thing you can actually link to the original story and the profane use of a holy symbol is not in and of itself an attack on Christianity or a comment on some sort of hypothetical "real story" but is very much in line with something an evil character would do. You're just trying to twist it to force it to have the worst possible meaning you can imagine. This is a massive stretch.
- flip the statue of Jesus... is another way of saying Christianity is bad and you're going to hell for it.
Inverted cross is a reference to Saint Peter, and is not at all unheard of for Christians to use. As I recall, he was martyred upside-down in order to show his unworthiness compared to Jesus' sacrifice. Therefore, inverting the cross symbolizes humility in deference to Christ. Admittedly, some idiots treat it as a Satanic symbol.
*googles, not sure if I remember correctly*
Yep. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Peter
If anything the biggest general failing in the show, imo, is that it doesn't really do enough to show that Dracula is wrong, that humans deserve to exist, lol. Way too many of the characters in general are just massive asshats with very little justification for being so, and that doesn't just apply to Christians.
-
If anything the biggest general failing in the show, imo, is that it doesn't really do enough to show that Dracula is wrong, that humans deserve to exist, lol. Way too many of the characters in general are just massive asshats with very little justification for being so, and that doesn't just apply to Christians.
In all fairness, I believe the games also keep it somewhat ambivalent, that Dracula may actually have a point. After all, they can't stop being evil, so that some higher being comes to do the evil unto them that they already commit to each other might be considered quite fair. Castlevania never was quite clear on the stance that Dracula is wholly wrong.
-
Hey I'm back
Haven't been here in a long time and nobody remember me, maybe I should call myself Forgotten One. ;D ;D
Anyway for a series that consider Christianity as a force of good and revolves around it this animation sure put Christianity in a bad light which goes against the core concept of Castlevania good and evil powers.
- Sypha Belnades has turned from a Pure Christian Hunter to an edgy Atheist from Avatar who want to Destroy the Church.
We can't have one of the main characters be Christian because then Christians will be good in which it goes against the anti-Christians propaganda.
- Christians bring misfortune on people again.
- The One Who's Many (Legion) It's based on a Christian story where Jesus Heals a man whom was Prossessed by a large number of demons.
In the animation we see the people prossessed wear Crown of Thorn which a symbol of Jesus so this takes the story and flips it on it's head by implying:
Jesus instead of healing people he unleash demons on them prossessing them, and Jesus is the man on tower and all the other mindless people are Christians.
- The philosopher bug who came and say basically Christianity is Evil to a Muslim.
- The church presumably find the truth about their faith and flip the statue of Jesus to point under to hell is another way of saying Christianity is bad and you're going to hell for it.
Like really really wtf, I'm not religious but this is pathetic to be honest.
Adaptation yeah right more like hate propaganda.
The OP is a example of False Equivalence because how can there be "hate propaganda against Christians" when we already live in a predominately christian society first of all which the OP here is deflecting that fact here due to wrapping themselves up as the victim here?
Then again you must remember that the Castlevania games came from a time where plots were alot more simplistic than they are today hence more straightforward not to mention most of the time the legitimacy of Christianity let alone the Church is never questioned despite what history says.
Of course the reason why crosses, holy water, etc works in this game because it comes from staple Vampire tropes dating back to literature but them working doesn't mean they are "Good destroying Evil" however.
-
late here but
The OP is a example of False Equivalence because how can there be "hate propaganda against Christians" when we already live in a predominately christian society
Let's not pretend we are not token christian at best. We live in a society founded on christian values and beliefs. Which have arguably all degraded over time. Not to mention, living in a predominantly christian society does not stop netflix from, being the kind of company it is, and headquartered in the state it is- From being subversive in that regard.
The Church in Wallachia being corrupt, and the bishop in particular being very un-christian was fine. Not like there was not corruption in the church in those times. And we were shown later , that it wasnt discounting it all entirely. A proper priests does create holy water later in Season 1.
In season 3, the whole thing with the philosopher demon, and Isaac being "I'm Muslim btw" felt a bit too on the nose.
that said
- The church presumably find the truth about their faith and flip the statue of Jesus to point under to hell is another way of saying Christianity is bad and you're going to hell for it.
you're reading too much into that. The whole story there was supposed to show them being heretical priests. They no longer worshipped God or followed Christianity. They essentially became demon worshippers, seduced by the demon that crashed into their Monastery. Which is why they flipped the statue upside down. Nothing more, nothing less.
Also, maybe you forgot, but Castlevania is rife with satanic cultists who want to resurrect Dracula, which is basically what the whole plot there was about.
-
I saw a thread on Reddit that was saying anyone who likes Lenore is a simp because she's a manipulative sadistic vampire character. I tried to start a secondary conversation about how people feel about manipulative sadistic human characters and I used my Charlotte fanfiction as an example.
Now people seem confused over whether me posting my own fanfiction means I'm a desperate pathetic geek or a "madlad" who made a "power move."
-
There is not one single Church. You have the Roman Catholic, the Eastern Orthodox, the Gnostic (I like some of their literature), as well as numerous fringe groups that the Church put down as heretics. The guys worshiping a demon were a fringe group, not normal Christians. The bishop getting his head crushed was a normal Christian, but I couldn't tell if he was Eastern Orthodox or not (which is who held sway over Romania).
...I don't really know what was up with that guy killing kids, but whatever. Kids are annoying, I can relate.
The series should have gone the route of criticizing religious zealotry. That'd be more in line with the games.
As for anti-Christian symbolism in the games, I wouldn't say anything was really anti-Christian, but anti-Orthodoxy. And even then, most of that could just be written off as demonic perversion of Christian symbolism. The confessional priest ghost, the religious imagery in Dracula's paintings, some other stuff I can't bother remembering. Yeah, the Belmonts were Christian, but they weren't Catholic. ...Were they even excommunicated? Was that ever explicitly mentioned?
-
Yeah, the Belmonts were Christian, but they weren't Catholic. ...Were they even excommunicated? Was that ever explicitly mentioned?
No, that was invented by the show.
-
I recall something about them being outcasts though in the games because of their magical supernatural abilities, like, iirc, the church calling out to them for help in CV3 was like, last ditch begrudging effort or something. Actually, not excommunicated- but werent they exiles?
-
I recall something about them being outcasts though in the games because of their magical supernatural abilities, like, iirc, the church calling out to them for help in CV3 was like, last ditch begrudging effort or something. Actually, not excommunicated- but werent they exiles?
Last time I checked, that was the case.
-
I'm like Dracula I appear every 1.00 year(S)
I understand some people hate Christianity and it's fine freewill is a thing.
Now some people here got offended by thought of Christianity being good notably Gaawa-Chan, if you hate Christianity that much then why are you playing Castlevania when the series praises Christianity so much to the point where almost all main Characters are Holy Blessed by the Cross.
Now I'm not saying you should be Christian to enjoy Castlevania, you could be whatever Muslim Buddhist Atheist it doesn't matter you just have to approach the series with an open mind if the game says Christianity is good within the lore then it is, it doesn't matter what you think of it in real life as it's just a game.
Offcourse Christianity isn't perfect nothing is actually however there is something in the past of Humans people tend to ignore Which is people back then are highly intolerant, say the wrong thing in any part of the world and you'll be getting your head chopped, they still are to a degree.
But Christianity always singled out for some arbitrary reasons as if it's the only one did bad things.
Finally why did I make this topic?
Like any fan of games manga comics or anything I want a faithful adaptation to the thing I love and this is way far off the mark, it's actually insulting.
The writer is going to be kicked because he abuse women and is a sexual predator.
Looks like the one criticizing Christianity isn't a Holy man himself and doesn't hold the moral high ground anymore.
All he did was butcher my beloved Castlevania, sigh.
-
I was hoping that we’d see more devout Christians who were ernest to do the right thing to balance out the Christians who did terrible things in the show. What we got in season 3 instead was the figure of the judge, an apparently irreligious figure, who was still deeply flawed. It seemed as if he was being propped up as a sensible man who won’t follow the nonsense of the religious fanatics and was thus a great ally to our heros. But then his true nature was revealed. It then seemed that the message was that it wasn’t necessarily religious blindness that caused some people to be terrible, but something from human nature instead. I felt that at least still balanced the apparant bias a bit.
-
All he did was butcher my beloved Castlevania, sigh.
I feel like you're giving that shitstain far too much credit.
-
It’s probably an exaggeration to say Warren Ellis has butchered Castlevania but millions of people who may have never heard of Castlevania before now recognize it as a vampire show filled with edgy atheism, explicit sex, and crass humor. I'm just hoping konami has no plans of transferring any of these things to future games.
In case it's gone unnoticed Warren Ellis' line about a certain important Christian seems to be copied almost word for word from a book called “the darkening age”. It doesn’t get more obvious that you have an ant-christian agenda than inserting anti -christian literature almost verbatim into your show.
I would also like to add that the line about driving sinners into traps refers to a homily by St John Chrysostom. In which he complains about how sinful he finds the games and theatre and implores his listeners to bar anyone who attends them from church, not talk to them, and not let them enter their homes. He compares this strategy to a hunter who chases his prey not from one side but by all sides. Warren Ellis intentionally uses this in a way that makes it appear more sinister than it really is.
This actually demonstrates how shallow Warren Ellis’s writing is. It’s very likely that he never even read the original homily and just copied the phrase from “The Darkening Age” changing a few words like a high school kid copying a text for their essay.
For comparison:
The darkening age:
As one influential Christian speaker put it, his congregation should hunt down sinners and drive them into the way of salvation as relentlessly as a hunter pursues his prey into nets.
Warren Ellis:
And one important Christian was heard to say, that the people should hunt down sinners and drive them into salvation as a hunter drives its prey into traps.
And from the books index you can see that homily is called Against the Games and Theatres.
-
Who doesn't love some obvious anti-christianity propaganda?
-
I was hoping that we’d see more devout Christians who were ernest to do the right thing to balance out the Christians who did terrible things in the show. What we got in season 3 instead was the figure of the judge, an apparently irreligious figure, who was still deeply flawed. It seemed as if he was being propped up as a sensible man who won’t follow the nonsense of the religious fanatics and was thus a great ally to our heros. But then his true nature was revealed. It then seemed that the message was that it wasn’t necessarily religious blindness that caused some people to be terrible, but something from human nature instead. I felt that at least still balanced the apparant bias a bit.
That's a good idea, I was hoping for the same thing myself.
I feel like you're giving that shitstain far too much credit.
My apologies.
It’s probably an exaggeration to say Warren Ellis has butchered Castlevania but millions of people who may have never heard of Castlevania before now recognize it as a vampire show filled with edgy atheism, explicit sex, and crass humor. I'm just hoping konami has no plans of transferring any of these things to future games.
In case it's gone unnoticed Warren Ellis' line about a certain important Christian seems to be copied almost word for word from a book called “the darkening age”. It doesn’t get more obvious that you have an ant-christian agenda than inserting anti -christian literature almost verbatim into your show.
I would also like to add that the line about driving sinners into traps refers to a homily by St John Chrysostom. In which he complains about how sinful he finds the games and theatre and implores his listeners to bar anyone who attends them from church, not talk to them, and not let them enter their homes. He compares this strategy to a hunter who chases his prey not from one side but by all sides. Warren Ellis intentionally uses this in a way that makes it appear more sinister than it really is.
This actually demonstrates how shallow Warren Ellis’s writing is. It’s very likely that he never even read the original homily and just copied the phrase from “The Darkening Age” changing a few words like a high school kid copying a text for their essay.
For comparison:
The darkening age:
As one influential Christian speaker put it, his congregation should hunt down sinners and drive them into the way of salvation as relentlessly as a hunter pursues his prey into nets.
Warren Ellis:
And one important Christian was heard to say, that the people should hunt down sinners and drive them into salvation as a hunter drives its prey into traps.
And from the books index you can see that homily is called Against the Games and Theatres.
^ This, well said.
Who doesn't love some obvious anti-christianity propaganda?
Totally me :rollseyes: :rollseyes: :rollseyes: