Topic: Don't put a Supreme Evil in your show or game without Supreme Good to defeat it

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Don't do it. I really understand the temptation to do so. But don't do it.

Unless you plan to have your quite mortal hero realize it's a hopeless battle and ultimately get that thrashing they've been needing.

I got to writing this because a while ago, I had a REALLY pointless but fascinating debate as to why villains such as Buffy's "First Evil" are pretty much the worst thing ever, and I'm reposting it here due to the pretty awesome responses I saw in the "Devil or Ego" thread.

And here's where we get to the good part.

The First Evil was a unique entity that predated man and demon, apparently the personification of the concept of evil itself, manifested from all evil in existence. The First was an incorporeal presence that could assume the form of any person who had died, including vampires and persons who had been resurrected. Because of this it appeared in various forms depending who it sought to manipulate.

Frankly, sounds a LOT like a certain fallen angel.

Do you know who I'm talking about?

...

...

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...any idea at all?

...

...

...

...It's Lucifer.

Stop being so secular and modern and go read some books.

Anyway.

The Book of Revelations (and to be fair, MOST religious end-of-the-world scenarios) makes it pretty clear who is to triumph over the Evil One. (hint: it's not a mortal)

By having your mortal and imperfect hero triumph over Lucifer/Ahriman/Iblis/The First Evil/The Cosmic Killer Chicken/Whatever-else-you've-come-up-with-in-your-cleverness, you've just put your (still mortal ind imperfect) hero on more or less equal footing with the Almighty, at least when it comes to triumphing over evil.

Which, if that were possible, removes pretty much any need for God in the first place.

"No thanks old man, we got this one in the bag."

For most writers seeking to reach a wide audience, it's understandable why it's written that way: to avoid offending people who hold a different set of beliefs by simply glossing over the subject of divinity. But as someone who has routinely struggled with thoughts of damnation and judgment, removing God from the equation is about the same as cutting your anchor line when you're rock climbing and 300 feet from the ground: if you're wrong, it's one HELL of a fall.

It's not so offensive to me that this is done as it is disappointing. It's short-sighted, and utterly fails to understand why religions believe what they do the way that they do.

The thing about Supreme Evils in any religion is the purpose they serve in the narrative of the universe.

They are not so much "challenges to be overcome" as "trials to be endured", and frequently a mark of your faith is how well you endure that trial.

Whether the evil doles out suffering or temptation, the point is that they are impossible to overcome by your efforts alone, however grand those efforts may be. The Supreme Evil is 'Supreme' precisely BECAUSE they cannot be defeated by man. It takes a Supreme Good to defeat a Supreme Evil, and that, I'm sorry to say for all the writers in the entertainment industry, would be more or less exactly what mankind is NOT.

If mankind could defeat a Supreme Evil, we've automatically proven it wasn't quite so supreme after all.

The Dante's Inferno anime film gets a notable kudo for this, because at the end, Dante realizes that all his efforts to defeat Lucifer will be useless, and in the end, he does truly need God, and so he gets on his knees... and PRAYS.

He apologizes for every slight he's made against God, and is willing to trade his own damnation to save everything he cares about.

Which is far more meaningful and poetic than selling your soul to the Devil to save "person you care about X" or "gain superpower Y", when you think about it.

And just because Dante was willing to make that ultimate sacrifice, God not only puts Lucifer in his place, but He also gives Dante a shot at the redemption he didn't believe he deserved as the movie ends.

This was an amazing ending, just by virtue of being so unexpected.

You expect Dante to pull off some incredibly over the top and badass move, and smack down the Devil like the hand of, well... God. Kind of like what happened in the game.

Yet here was Dante, portrayed as a Crusader, doing something a good Crusader should be expected to do: seeking God's help with a greater foe than he can manage.

It was refreshing, and surprisingly satisfying.

Contrast: Buffy the Vampire Slayer's ending. Which was horrible.

Buffy and her friends are in a pinch. The First Evil has it's Turok-Han (or really really badass vampire) army utterly DESTROYING the forces of Good left and right, as the First simply gloats over its apparent victory.

It would take a miracle to triumph here.

And a miracle happens. But is it God? No. The forces of good turn to a witch (albeit an extremely cute and likable one) who uses pagan magic to trigger a Deus Ex Machina (that in reality leaves the "Deus" bit out), that turns every potential slayer into an actual slayer. And then a further miracle and Deus-less Ex Machina happens (one that is even less well explained), when Spike arrives and his magical amulet just HAPPENS to spread the sunlight around, killing all the vampires and... somehow collapsing the cave they were all in, but not before everyone but Spike gets to safety. This foils the First's plans. Plans that it had set in motion hundreds, if not thousands, of years prior.

I get that the show was just trying to wrap up a seven year story in the next 15 minutes and needed something to finish it, and fast.

But in a show so inundated with Christian imagery (crosses and other Christian symbols abound throughout), the show never bothers to address WHY those symbols work against the forces of evil.

God is utterly ignored in the finale, as He has been for literally the entire series, and it is a disheartening trend in this kind of show.

Buffy DID dodge a bullet by not actually killing the First Evil, I'll admit, but the show still missed the point of a Supreme Evil as a "trial to be endured", and treated it instead as a "challenge to be overcome".

At the end of the day, our (yes, still mortal and imperfect) heroes triumphed over Supreme Evil, and proceeded to witty banter like it ain't no thang.

Mankind is able to use magic, half-demons, repentant demons, or basically anything but God to triumph over the Supreme Evil of whatever show you happen to be watching. But Neilson Ratings help you should you mention that God may have had anything to do with the hero's victory.

If you're going to cut God, then by all means, feel inclined to cut the Supreme Evil Ol' Whatshisname, because people shouldn't be able to triumph over such beings anyway.

By that same token, if you're going to include Supreme Evil Ol' Whatshisname, then please don't leave God out of it. It doesn't matter if you call Him Yahweh, Jehova, Allah, or Steve the Creator. Just have Him in there to lend the needed perspective.

[uzo]

But secular is all the rage!

[Inccubus]

I see only one flaw with your use of Buffy as a contrast. The First Evil isn't defeated at the end of the show. The story goes on after that in the comics IIRC and it certainly still goes on in Angel and it's subsequent comic. And "God" is mentioned in the series as the "Powers That Be". Thus there was a challenge, but they did not overcome it and we were left to our own devices as to the particulars which is quite normal when the audience at large is generally squirmy about religious content. And just because a witch facilitated the magic doesn't cut God out of the picture. That's a very narrow view. Being a witch myself I can tell you that we don't believe "magic" is something apart from God/dess/Diety/Ultimate Good.

[X]

Being a witch myself I can tell you that we don't believe "magic" is something apart from God/dess/Diety/Ultimate Good.

Wow! I had no idea you practiced Wicca. I have a work colleague at my workplace (Bookstore) whom is also a Wicca practitioner. However I thought that the title of 'Witch' was for women while the title for men was 'Warlock' Am I mistaken? And what you stated above is very true. The magic from Wicca or any other ancient spiritual practice is essentially God's power. His power is used through us; his children in order to ward off evil (negativity). In though times we alone are not enough so we do reach out and pray for a helping hand in need.

[TheouAegis]

Actually Ahura Mazda doesn't technically conquer Ahriman. The whole of humanity including the deceased lead to Ahriman's defeat. Every person that dies shares their knowledge of the aja (truth) with the universe, which is why it's important to cremate or dispose of the corpse in a secure manner so that the festering doesn't spread the druj (lies) throughout the universe. Only when the Saoshyant brings the dead back and all the truth learned and maintained by humanity has been amassed will Ahriman be defeated and the universe will be made anew.


Then you have Urotsukidouji, where the "supreme good" is really a supreme evil and the supreme evil to defeat the supreme good is... also a supreme evil but of lesser ability. ... Ok, I guess that falls under the "unless you want your mortal hero to get realize his effort in futility."

And I think in most cases the supreme evil isn't really "supreme" in the sense that no one can beat him except a supreme good, just means that of all the other evils he is the most powerful. So if the mortal hero can beat the supreme evil, then the mortal hero can beat any other evils that try to rise to the challenge.

[Abnormal Freak]

Nothing makes me smile more than for a discussion like this to have brought into it Urotsukidoji. Demon rape, demon rape...

I always wondered some of this in regard to Castlevania. Is Dracula essentially the devil, or as his name implies, the son (figurative or literal) of the dragon (Satan)? And if he's the supreme evil (which I doubt), why is it these agents of God taking him down...with whips and holy water?

Speaking of which:

Dorkly Bits: Castlevania S&M

Regarding Buffy, my love for the series has yet to go beyond the original movie. That movie kiiiicks so much ass.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

I see only one flaw with your use of Buffy as a contrast. The First Evil isn't defeated at the end of the show. The story goes on after that in the comics IIRC and it certainly still goes on in Angel and it's subsequent comic. And "God" is mentioned in the series as the "Powers That Be". Thus there was a challenge, but they did not overcome it and we were left to our own devices as to the particulars which is quite normal when the audience at large is generally squirmy about religious content. And just because a witch facilitated the magic doesn't cut God out of the picture. That's a very narrow view. Being a witch myself I can tell you that we don't believe "magic" is something apart from God/dess/Diety/Ultimate Good.

I have a lot on my mind after reading this comment, so I'll lend a few thoughts in response.

Angel pretty much established that the Powers that Be were closer to being egocentric assholes rather than loving creators, much like the Greek pantheon. Also, aside from vague migraine inducing visions of the future, they never really "step in" to fight evil, forcing Buffy, Angel, and everyone else to deal with opponents of a far greater caliber than they should be expected to manage (The First, Glory, Senior Partners, etc.) even when those foes attack the fundamental ways the universe is supposed to function (like ripping holes in the universe that lead to alternate planes of existence filled with demons and false gods that come pretty damn close to being actual ones by human reckoning).

As for magic, I tried practicing magic for a few years as I was struggling to find a spiritual identity, and I learned a few things during that time. First, while I do not at all discredit any effectiveness behind it in real life, I find that the way it is portrayed in popular media is downright inaccurate, even when done seriously, although Buffy does deserve props for coming close a few times.

Second, the amount of power Willow has at the end of the show is shockingly massive. I firmly believe that no human should ever have access to that kind of power, as I believe mankind to be inherently depraved, and when given that level of power, even the best of us would be all too easily corrupted by it.

Thirdly, both the Old and the New Testaments make repeated references to the practice of witchcraft and sorcery, and whenever these practices are referred to, they are always condemned by God. The Bible condemns all forms of witchcraft, so on a scriptural basis, I would have to argue that because a witch facilitated the magic, it did indeed cut God out of the equation. There is no scripture in the Bible that suggests that magic can lead to any end God would be proud of. That said, it doesn't mean that a witch could not factor into God's plan. Assuming the Christian God exists within the Buffyverse (He may not, but Joss will never touch on that, I think), it is entirely possible that He chose Willow to carry out the spell, as His instrument, as it were, as an ordinary person would not have had the ability to effectively protect the human world from the Evil Kingdom the First was trying to unleash. But that's my speculation, and without confirmation from Joss Whedon concerning Christianity and Buffy, it will simply remain that.

It's true they didn't kill or defeat the First, but the show still largely regarded the fight against evil in general as a challenge to be overcome rather than a fort to hold down.

Concerning the comics, I really don't care about them. I never wanted to read them, and never will, so for me, the show effectively ended at the season 7 finale, which resulted in a highly unsatisfying missed opportunity of an ending created by a show that had stayed a full season beyond it's welcome.

I do love Willow though. She's cute, plucky, and witty, and generally likeable, but her corruption after Tara's death was an example of why people should NOT have the kind of power she possesses: if they go bad, the end result will likely not favor the continued existence of the human species. It made for an amazing villain and story arc concerning the seeds of darkness within us all, and frankly, the series should have ended with her redemption, rather than introducing the whole "LET'S TAKE THE FIGHT TO EVIL!!" story arc at the end of season 7. It would have made for a more poetic, serious, and meaningful ending about the strength of friendship, family, and humanity's will to fight our inherent corruption and depravity.

Instead, what we got for an ending was kind of... meh.

[Inccubus]

Wow! I had no idea you practiced Wicca. I have a work colleague at my workplace (Bookstore) whom is also a Wicca practitioner. However I thought that the title of 'Witch' was for women while the title for men was 'Warlock' Am I mistaken? And what you stated above is very true. The magic from Wicca or any other ancient spiritual practice is essentially God's power. His power is used through us; his children in order to ward off evil (negativity). In though times we alone are not enough so we do reach out and pray for a helping hand in need.

Yeah, I am. My background is a little odd though. I was raised Catholic/Santero at home. I attended Baptist Church until I was 12. I've read about pretty much every religion that was and is at least in passing. And my ex-wife is a solitary Wiccan practitioner. So I'm a bit of a mixed bag.

Warlock is not used often among Wiccans or Pagans. As a matter of fact if you look up the origin of the word you'll find that it was originally derogatory in it's use. But indeed, magic is not anything separate from God, in fact, nothing is separate from God. That's what our ancestors understood that so many of us have forgotten.

Nothing makes me smile more than for a discussion like this to have brought into it Urotsukidoji. Demon rape, demon rape...

I always wondered some of this in regard to Castlevania. Is Dracula essentially the devil, or as his name implies, the son (figurative or literal) of the dragon (Satan)? And if he's the supreme evil (which I doubt), why is it these agents of God taking him down...with whips and holy water?

Speaking of which:

Dorkly Bits: Castlevania S&M

Regarding Buffy, my love for the series has yet to go beyond the original movie. That movie kiiiicks so much ass.

1) YES!
2) Dracul got his name because he was a member of the knightly order of the Dragon which I'm sure that a Christian order of Knights called the Dragons were named for the mythological beast and not the Devil who isn't Satan anyway. Dracula means Son of Dracul that's all. Nothing to do with the devil. So to clear things up a bit:
Dracul =/= Devil
Dracul == Dragon, as in The Order of the Dragon.
Devil =/= Satan, it is a title for an angel tasked with being in opposition to something as a test of faith.
And for good measure...
The Serpent of Eden =/= Satan, Lucifer, or the Devil and is, in fact, named as a member of the elohim which is interesting and controversial to say the least.
3) That was awesome.
4) That movie is awesome.

Angel pretty much established that the Powers that Be were closer to being egocentric assholes rather than loving creators, much like the Greek pantheon. Also, aside from vague migraine inducing visions of the future, they never really "step in" to fight evil, forcing Buffy, Angel, and everyone else to deal with opponents of a far greater caliber than they should be expected to manage (The First, Glory, Senior Partners, etc.) even when those foes attack the fundamental ways the universe is supposed to function (like ripping holes in the universe that lead to alternate planes of existence filled with demons and false gods that come pretty damn close to being actual ones by human reckoning).

God works in mysterious way.

As for magic, I tried practicing magic for a few years as I was struggling to find a spiritual identity, and I learned a few things during that time. First, while I do not at all discredit any effectiveness behind it in real life, I find that the way it is portrayed in popular media is downright inaccurate, even when done seriously, although Buffy does deserve props for coming close a few times.

I agree, that did ok.

Second, the amount of power Willow has at the end of the show is shockingly massive. I firmly believe that no human should ever have access to that kind of power, as I believe mankind to be inherently depraved, and when given that level of power, even the best of us would be all too easily corrupted by it.

I wouldn't say they're inherently depraved, but definitely largely misguided.

Thirdly, both the Old and the New Testaments make repeated references to the practice of witchcraft and sorcery, and whenever these practices are referred to, they are always condemned by God. The Bible condemns all forms of witchcraft, so on a scriptural basis, I would have to argue that because a witch facilitated the magic, it did indeed cut God out of the equation. There is no scripture in the Bible that suggests that magic can lead to any end God would be proud of. That said, it doesn't mean that a witch could not factor into God's plan. Assuming the Christian God exists within the Buffyverse (He may not, but Joss will never touch on that, I think), it is entirely possible that He chose Willow to carry out the spell, as His instrument, as it were, as an ordinary person would not have had the ability to effectively protect the human world from the Evil Kingdom the First was trying to unleash. But that's my speculation, and without confirmation from Joss Whedon concerning Christianity and Buffy, it will simply remain that.

Except for when Saul needs to speak to Samuel's spirit. 1 Samuel 28:3 - 25.

It's true they didn't kill or defeat the First, but the show still largely regarded the fight against evil in general as a challenge to be overcome rather than a fort to hold down.

I still have to disagree here because we don't know for a fact that the strange goings on that saved their asses wasn't set in motion by God/Powers.

Concerning the comics, I really don't care about them. I never wanted to read them, and never will, so for me, the show effectively ended at the season 7 finale, which resulted in a highly unsatisfying missed opportunity of an ending created by a show that had stayed a full season beyond it's welcome.

Then that really doesn't give you the whole story then, does it? I would recommend at least reading about the stories in the comics and then reevaluating your opinion. The TV series 'ending' was utter crap. That is the fault of the network which has a tendency to not tell you your show is cancelled until the last day of shooting.

I do love Willow though. She's cute, plucky, and witty, and generally likeable, but her corruption after Tara's death was an example of why people should NOT have the kind of power she possesses: if they go bad, the end result will likely not favor the continued existence of the human species. It made for an amazing villain and story arc concerning the seeds of darkness within us all, and frankly, the series should have ended with her redemption, rather than introducing the whole "LET'S TAKE THE FIGHT TO EVIL!!" story arc at the end of season 7. It would have made for a more poetic, serious, and meaningful ending about the strength of friendship, family, and humanity's will to fight our inherent corruption and depravity.

I had the biggest crush on her when I was a teen.

Instead, what we got for an ending was kind of... meh.

You're too kind, the ending was S*H*I*T.

[A-Yty]

I've come to think of Classic Timeline Drac as a chaotic neutral instead of a chaotic evil. He has an actual goal; get rid of the humans to make the world a better place. Of course this is a really bad thing, but Drac doesn't just do it for the evulz. He has a personal goal which he genuinely believes is a necessary evil. But the Shafts of the CV Universe think they can use his powers for their own means. Humans resurrect Dracula even though they know what he'll do. That's why I don't think he's the Supreme Evil. It's either the corrupted humans or Chaos.

[Kale]

By having your mortal and imperfect hero triumph over Lucifer/Ahriman/Iblis/The First Evil/The Cosmic Killer Chicken/Whatever-else-you've-come-up-with-in-your-cleverness, you've just put your (still mortal ind imperfect) hero on more or less equal footing with the Almighty, at least when it comes to triumphing over evil.

To be honest I didn't read your whole post or any one elses... but what makes you think that wasn't the creator's intent? Where human "goodness" is equal to God, or rather, there is no "God" but only you, as a human being.

[Mooning Freddy]

I've come to think of Classic Timeline Drac as a chaotic neutral instead of a chaotic evil. He has an actual goal; get rid of the humans to make the world a better place. Of course this is a really bad thing, but Drac doesn't just do it for the evulz

I disagree with that. Maybe that's the case with Symphony's Dracula, but he's a fuckin' drama queen.
Boohoohoo, the evil humans killed my wife so now I hate them because I lost the ability to love... Oh...  *forever alone*

Fuck that. Symphony's Dracula is an emofag. The real Dracula wants to enslave all humans because they're pitiful mortals and he's bad like that. He cares not for love because he's the ultimate lord of the underworld. That was Bram Stoker's original Drac. 

[A-Yty]

So you want him to be evil just because. Hey, cool, but I'd say he was hardly emo in SotN. He was still going to kill his son (or brainwash him at least), which is pretty bad. And it's not like he constantly whines after his wives.

[Arma]

In all the stories I know were the hero has to defeat evil they usually do it with the help of the divine providence but in the end it must be the hero the one that defeat that evil after enduring a long path of trials and of course with God's help.

Not much room for a plot if you put a supreme evil to be defeated by a supreme good, you know they don't even need to take any trials it's just straight confrontation until one falls. If my memory doesn't fails me in the New testament Michael is the one that leads God's army against Satan's and he's is the one that ultimately defeats him in the name of God right?

If Satan or Lucifer is the supreme evil and Michael is an archangel then the supreme evil was desfeated by an entity that is more powerful than a mortal, yes, but not more powerful than God.
Lucifer was defeated by Michael who is said to be stronger and thus exiled from Heaven.

Supreme evil is never defeated, just stopped from doing a certain thing at a certain moment. With the aid of God and special traits a devote hero migh just be able to do it without this being so ridiculous.

On the other hand is not impossible for a mortal to deny evil and that always seems to weaken it, at least in the movies.

[TheouAegis]

I'm a fan of Urotsukidouji. Been watching it since I was 17 and somehow was able to rent it at a movie store at that time. Then i showed it to one of my friends and he told his dad... who happened to be a pastor. >_>

I've seen all 5 sagas and the remake. I even read the manga; I think I have a scan on a CD somewhere. I love the series. U1 and U2 were the best, in my opinion; U1 for its over all story and what it brought to the anime/hentai scene (also cuz it was the first anime that scared the fucking shit out of me... or at least disturbed me and left scars), and U2 for its story. U2 made me cry. I just hate how U2 doesn't really tie into anything, but for that same reason it was the best movie because it was a whole coherent story. I actually hold the first three movies in high regard and consider them decent examples of anime. I even still watch them from time to time. Can't say that about any other hentai. I actually consider Urotsukidouji a good anime in its own right.

[Gunlord]

Very interesting post, Haman. I might come back later to add more substantial thoughts on it, but for now, keep in mind that Joss Whedon, the guy who writes for Buffy, is a very staunch atheist. He probably wouldn't have wanted to include a "supreme good" in his show because he doesn't believe in one.