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Offline Mooning Freddy

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Why death penalty?
« on: May 17, 2012, 05:14:57 AM »
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Why does the United States support death penalty? I know that several states abolished it but it seems like a too major issue to be allowed to states' decision.
The way I see it, death penalty, except in some very rare conditions, is not only cruel but also irrational. Does it create any actual deterrence? I find it hard to believe. I read that it actually wastes much more taxpayers' money for judicial purposes than life sentence, plus there's also always the chance the suspect may be innocent. And even if he's not, killing the person won't bring his victims back, and if the suspect is released after a long time he may become a productive member of society again. 
So eventually, it seems to me the penalty satisfies nothing but people's bloodlust.
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Offline beingthehero

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Re: Why death penalty?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2012, 08:24:18 AM »
+1
Because we're not allowed to do gladiator fights, and that is a shame. 

Offline X

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Re: Why death penalty?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2012, 09:59:03 AM »
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Quote
Because we're not allowed to do gladiator fights, and that is a shame. 

The Declaration of human rights and the Geneva convention have pretty much given any sort of Gladiatorial fight-to-the-death entertainment a death sentence of its own. In terms of america's standpoint on the death penalty, I'd have to say they are still a ways away from "Growing up" if they still hold onto such ideals. The other reason why not all of the states have abolished the death penalty is because they are all independent from one-another while at the same time, being united; hence the united states. As it currently stands whoever is senator in said state makes the rules for that state, though they do have to answer to the president. But I personally don't think they should follow that way of thinking any more. They're supposed to be a single country now and as such having each state have their own set of laws just causes more problems then it solves. What is illegal in one state my be legal in another and vice-versa.
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Offline Flame

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Re: Why death penalty?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2012, 11:16:35 PM »
+1
Funny thing about Death penalty. Because there are good arguments to both sides.

You have a murderer, serial killer, any kind of scum, the lowest kind, and they deserve death, better to get them out of the way,

but at the same time, what if an innocent man is convicted and killed? Also, if the state executes a man that kills people, how does that make them better than him? eye for an eye just doesnt make anything better, and doesnt set any sort of example. Two wrongs dont make a right.

On taxpayer money- both keeping them alive AND killing them waste taxpayer money. on the one hand, by feeding, clothing, and keeping them in a living space. on the other, you spend money on whatever means of execution. On the Executor themselves, the officials present, and whatever materials are necessary. if I remember right, the only kind of Execution still used in the US is lethal injection, as it's the only one which has not yet been proven without a shadow of a doubt to be cruel and unusual punishment. The general consensus amongst experts is that it puts them to sleep and then kills them. Except since it's a cocktail of different chemicals, it isnt always the case... these days, the argument has been made that in many cases, they are NOT put to sleep, but often simply paralyzed by the paralytic agent, and therefore in silent agony as each organ shuts down, unable to scream or move or show their pain.

either way, you have to pay for those chemicals.

Again, it;s a dilemma. I can understand why one would want the death penalty, and I cant deny at some point or another, I have heard of some monster on the news which I truly wished would be wiped from the earth, and have wondered, "what would putting him behind bars even accomplish?"  But at the same time, killing someone who kills others just doesnt seem like such a morally correct choice. Like I said before, it really makes you no better. It doesnt accomplish anything except murdering a man.

IMO the whole Criminal justice system needs to be updated. Youve got all the different kinds of offenders all lumped together in the same prison in most cases, and that often just makes the minor offenders worse than they were before.

Kind of how sending a kid to Juvy will most likely make him a worse kid, or damage him for life.

In all honesty, I dont support the death penalty. There's just no way of justifying it, or even calling any form of execution "humane". It's just eye for an eye. and that philosophy just doesnt work in modern day. It never really worked. Hate creates hate. Better to burden society with a prison full of criminals than to wrongly execute an innocent man who was a victim of police malpractice or simply the lack of today's super accurate and convenient technology.

How many people who have been imprisoned unjustly have been started to be discovered as innocent after something as simple as a DNA test on the prisoner and the victim have proved that they were simply not the correct person?
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Offline Lumi Kløvstad

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Re: Why death penalty?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2012, 12:55:37 AM »
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Here's how I see it, and this is all intend to say on what for me is a hot button issue.

If you come to my country and kill a member of my family, I will do my damnedest to kill you right back. Capital punishment is a good way to avoid vigilante justice, which is unregulated, uncontrolled, and arguably a more painful death than lethal injection.

And leaving aside the vengeance motive, some crimes are unforgivable, and must be paid for with the criminal's blood.

If someone blew up a school full of children, I am certain that I and my peers would never rest easy knowing that the one who did it was still alive in some jail cell. What if he escaped? Or worse yet, what if a lawyer pulled off some legal jiggery pokery and secured his release? Such a scenario is hardly unthinkable in the US of A. In fact, criminal scum get released all the time because a lawyer who is paid to ignore his better judgment was able to find a loophole or a technicality that would secure a criminal's release. What then? What would stop such a criminal from repeating that crime, or attempting something even worse?

The simple fact is that there are wicked folk out there who if they are allowed to live will do nothing but prey on the innocent.

These people must be caught, convicted, and brought to a swift end for the good of society.

Yes. Occasionally an innocent man may be wrongfully convicted and put to death; it's not unheard of. Yet these are the exceptions and not the rule. I do not believe we should discard so powerful a tool to protect the innocent because the system occasionally faults. Instead, you feel sorry. You offer condolences and prayer. And then you do everything you can to ensure that such a thing does not happen again.

Fear of death is as powerful a motivation to ensure lawful action as can be found, yet the threat of death should not be so lightly discarded because of a miss now and then.

Drunk drivers kill far more innocents every year than are wrongfully executed, yet we do not ban cars or drinking. Unfortunate mistakes are exactly that. They are unfortunate and they are mistakes. But it is unwise to make policy based on mistakes alone.

Here ends my speech.










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Offline uzo

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Re: Why death penalty?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2012, 06:31:13 AM »
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If you've done something to get yourself on DEATH ROW, then I honestly give ZERO fucks if your end is cruel or unusual.

When you get right down to it, some people just need to die.

And no, the death penalty is in no way shape or form an equivalent to the violent blood letting punishments of the past. In fact, present day US death row executions are completely anti-climatic, and the only spectators are those who legally need to witness it. You can't just go an watch executions for fun.

Offline TheouAegis

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Re: Why death penalty?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2012, 07:34:02 AM »
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On taxpayer money- both keeping them alive AND killing them waste taxpayer money. on the one hand, by feeding, clothing, and keeping them in a living space. on the other, you spend money on whatever means of execution. On the Executor themselves, the officials present, and whatever materials are necessary. if I remember right, the only kind of Execution still used in the US is lethal injection, as it's the only one which has not yet been proven without a shadow of a doubt to be cruel and unusual punishment.

You must not be from the US.


First off, the argument that the death penalty is too expensive has nothing to do with the cost of the execution itself. The current argument against the death penalty is that it is too expensive because tax payer money is wasted on appeals. When a death penalty is handed down as punishment, the death row inmate more often than not fights the verdict until the day of execution. This is a major drain on civic funds more so than the feeding and housing of the inmate. And if the inmate uses a public defender rather than his own lawyer, that's even more taxpayer money spent.

And no, lethal injection isn't the only form of execution still used in the US. Lethal injection, the gas chamber, the popular electric chair, and the classic hanging by noose are still in popular use in the US. Yes, you can still be executed by hanging. Washington state, where I live, is one of the states taht still relies on it. It's the cheapest form of execution.
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Offline Mooning Freddy

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Re: Why death penalty?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2012, 08:32:09 AM »
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Yeah, TheouAegis is right about the costs being for judicial purposes.

From what I realized, one of the stupidest things about death penalty is that carrying out the verdict takes YEARS. Sometimes over a decade. That's A LOT of money for attorneys and investigations. Mumia Abu-Jamal is a person who was sentenced to death in 1982, and his death sentence was canceled in 2012. Fuckin' 20 years of investigation! What for?

The thing is, the whole death penalty idea is often discussed in my country. In Israel, death penalty is not implemented. (probably because of religious reasons) But often there are cases of gruesome murders in the country and people call for implementing it.
The only exception to the law are Nazi war criminals. I think most of you heard about the Eichmann trial in 1961. Adolf Eichmann was a major SS officer responsible for "the final solution" to " the Jewish problem" in Europe. He was kidnapped by Mossad agents in Argentina where he was living under a false identity and transported to Israel, where he was convicted with crimes against humanity and executed. This was the only execution carried out in the country.
The reason the trial was so interesting is because it was almost political. Eichmann's execution wasn't just accomplishing justice, it was a symbol. A symbol of the Jews' vengeance for the Nazis' crimes.
That is why I think executions are important when they serve a clear political purpose. When they raise important issues.
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Offline Flame

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Re: Why death penalty?
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2012, 10:21:49 AM »
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I'm from NYC :P, I just couldn't be bothered to check what death penalty types are still used in the US.

I just hear more about Lethal Injection than I do about the Chair or Gas Chamber. IDK.

Quote
I do not believe we should discard so powerful a tool to protect the innocent because the system occasionally faults.
Sounds like a pretty fatal flaw to me. I really cant support something that has such a chance of failure. Not when it's something so sensitive and PERMANENT as a Human life.

Today's technology thankfully has made wrongful executions and such a FAR less occurrence, but they still happen, mainly with older prisoners who have been in there since before modern technology caught up with the justice system.

If you want to instate the death penalty, I just cant really support sentencing someone to death without being 100% sure that they did the crime, or don't just have a really shitty lawyer or really well paid prosecutor against them.

I never really stated that Death penalty was more expensive than keeping them alive, just that, depending on what tupe of execution your state uses, it could still cost money for equipment and materials and shit.

Quote
From what I realized, one of the stupidest things about death penalty is that carrying out the verdict takes YEARS. Sometimes over a decade. That's A LOT of money for attorneys and investigations. Mumia Abu-Jamal is a person who was sentenced to death in 1982, and his death sentence was canceled in 2012. Fuckin' 20 years of investigation! What for?
yeeeah that's another thing... sentence someone to the death penalty and it could sometimes be YEARS before they go anywhere with it.

Eh, just my own opinion due to my own morals and beliefs. Im a nice guy and pacifistic person by nature so I hate violence, be it a criminal doing something, or the state killing him. I just dont really trust the justice system to be entirely accurate, so I prefer life sentences. At least, while they may have lost countless years off of their life, they can still walk free WITH that life, if it turns out they were innocent.

just saying "oops, oh well. He was innocent. It's too late, but lets make sure that doesn't happen again." dont cut it for me. Id rather it NEVER happen in the first place.
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Offline Ratty

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Re: Why death penalty?
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2012, 08:39:44 PM »
+1
This is a very complex issue with many different factors to consider.
For starters, what is the purpose of the criminal justice system in the united states? Is it to reform wrongdoers and help improve communities? Protect the citizenry by locking away the guilty forever? Is it to deal out retribution for society at large, partly to prevent personal revenge?

There is also the question of fallibility. If you convict and execute the wrong person not only is the actual wrongdoer still out there but you can't undo the punishment you have wrought, and we have collectively as a society killed an innocent man or woman. Statistics seem to indicate that capital punishment is not a stronger deterrent to capital offenses than life in prison. With an appeals process which can take decades, important to lessen the chances of executing the innocent but also very expensive. Those on death row, kept in relative isolation with special guards needing to bring them food etc. cost the state much more than prisoners in the general population. It is a question with no easy answer, but there are a lot of holes on the side of those who claim it is an effective deterrent or cost-effective way of dealing with crime.

Yes. Occasionally an innocent man may be wrongfully convicted and put to death; it's not unheard of. Yet these are the exceptions and not the rule. I do not believe we should discard so powerful a tool to protect the innocent because the system occasionally faults. Instead, you feel sorry. You offer condolences and prayer. And then you do everything you can to ensure that such a thing does not happen again.

Not likely that someone would get off for killing a busload of children unless they were proven innocent later. At most there would be a retrial. Take those guys who kidnapped and buried that schoolbus load of children in the 70s (all of whom survived) as I recall they all got life in prison and none of them have even been paroled.

The reality is that most cases in the United States never go to trial, something like 90% of convictions are the result of guilty pleas for less harsh sentences waiving the right to trial, despite what you may have seen on TV. Many people do this even though they are innocent because they are lied to about the evidence against them by the police, once they have pled guilty it cannot be overturned even if the source of the evidence is later proven bogus. The "justice system" in the united states is not just occasionally fallible, it is badly broken in many respects.
Also as I mentioned statistics show that capital punishment is not a particularly effective deterrent, it's almost like the people who murder aren't thinking rationally when they do it eh?
And prayer and "I'm sorry" doesn't bring back the dead and gone whether they're killed by a single murderer or by all of us collectively. We're not doing everything we can to stop the killing of innocents as long as executions are still taking place.
Yes if I was a family member of a victim I might well feel differently but that's the whole reason that we have a justice system rather than vigilante justice, so we can look at these things objectively, with the hope that all of us will collectively act better than any of us.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 09:04:06 PM by Ratty »

Offline uzo

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Re: Why death penalty?
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2012, 06:36:30 AM »
-1
You cannot blame the justice system, or the police, for anyone retarded enough to plead guilty while not being guilty. That is just complete bullshit.

If you admit guilt to a crime you have decided to take on the sole responsibility for that crime regardless if you did or did not do it.

Offline Flame

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Re: Why death penalty?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2012, 06:45:42 AM »
+2
Police have been known to pressure people into admitting to a crime despite being innocent. It's happened before. They keep them at the station for long unending hours, usually overnight, not letting them sleep and consistently pressuring them and telling them that they just have to sign the confession and they will be let go. There's only so much a person can take before they break and accept the offer.

It's a shameful thing, but it has been known to happen.

EDIT: granted, I cant exactly be entirely sure if that has ever happened in regards to a murder or something worth capial punishment.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 06:56:42 AM by Flame »
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Offline Ratty

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Re: Why death penalty?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2012, 07:10:26 AM »
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You cannot blame the justice system, or the police, for anyone retarded enough to plead guilty while not being guilty. That is just complete bullshit.

If you admit guilt to a crime you have decided to take on the sole responsibility for that crime regardless if you did or did not do it.
Put someone in a room and say you've got multiple witnesses and physical evidence tying them to a crime (which don't exist, that's the police lying I was talking about) and that they're looking at 10 years in prison if this goes to court, but they'll get 5 years probation (which has a ton of hidden fees and restrictions the person doesn't know about) and can leave the station and go home that night if they just sign a confession and plead guilty. A lot of people are going to crack regardless of whether they're innocent or not. Another tactic is to describe what the person supposedly did that only the criminal would know, "We know that you got out of a green Buick, then shot her twice in the chest" etc. so when repeatedly pressed about it the person's knowledge of the crime and their denials about it seem suspiciously specific for them to have not been there/seen it.

Police have been known to pressure people into admitting to a crime despite being innocent. It's happened before. They keep them at the station for long unending hours, usually overnight, not letting them sleep and consistently pressuring them and telling them that they just have to sign the confession and they will be let go. There's only so much a person can take before they break and accept the offer.

It's a shameful thing, but it has been known to happen.

EDIT: granted, I cant exactly be entirely sure if that has ever happened in regards to a murder or something worth capial punishment.

It has. I know of at least one murder confession that was used in court that was obtained while a guy was going through heavy drug-withdrawal. The details he gave matched those the police had repeatedly recited to him in previous grilling sessions during which he wasn't going through withdrawal and during all of which he denied the accusations. (He had fled the country with his also-addicted girlfriend as he was a native of South America anyway, and just been hauled back when they questioned him while he was withdrawing from a lengthy binge.) A good way to get junkies to either confess to something or get "information/leads" on others out of them (witch hunt style) is to grille them while they're going through withdrawal.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 08:26:32 AM by Ratty »

Offline uzo

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Re: Why death penalty?
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2012, 09:35:01 AM »
-1
The cops are just doing their jobs to find out who did it. Part of that is following up on their best lead and trying anything they can to see it through. If the person is being a dumbass and leading them on that they are guilty, by their dumbass behavior, then it's their own damn fault. If anything the cops are gimped in their abilities to solve crimes.

And you both forget a couple of very important things;

1) You don't have to talk to the cops if you don't want to. You don't have to reply at all.
2) "I want a lawyer." At this point THEY cant touch you, or even speak to you.

They try and say something that's not true? Call the bullshit, or don't reply at all. They don't seem to be getting the message? Lawyer up. Oh boo hoo, I was held at the police station for a day and they said mean things to me. Grow a fucking pair and get over it, or call for a lawyer and walk out of there the same day.

Offline Ratty

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Re: Why death penalty?
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2012, 09:53:13 AM »
0
The cops are just doing their jobs to find out who did it. Part of that is following up on their best lead and trying anything they can to see it through. If the person is being a dumbass and leading them on that they are guilty, by their dumbass behavior, then it's their own damn fault. If anything the cops are gimped in their abilities to solve crimes.

Being held in a jail cell for days because someone said you did something while your kids are at home and you have to depend on other people you might not even really know to take care of them is "leading the cops on"?
Such deceptive tactics as the ones I've gone over are not neccessary if you're really trying to find the person responsible and not just arrest someone to look like you're doing something about a problem. In a lot of areas law enforcement/"dealing justice" is looked at like an assembly line in that you're expected to ticket or arrest or convict at least a certain amount of people over a certain amount of time. If they can't find enough people doing something warranting a ticket / arrest / conviction to fill their quota guess what happens. Getting someone to confess to a crime "solves" that crime even if the evidence (such as a tip from a junkie just trying to get out while they're in withdrawal) is later proven to be false/unreliable.

And you both forget a couple of very important things;

1) You don't have to talk to the cops if you don't want to. You don't have to reply at all.
2) "I want a lawyer." At this point THEY cant touch you, or even speak to you.

They try and say something that's not true? Call the bullshit, or don't reply at all. They don't seem to be getting the message? Lawyer up. Oh boo hoo, I was held at the police station for a day and they said mean things to me. Grow a fucking pair and get over it, or call for a lawyer and walk out of there the same day.
You don't know how overworked most public defenders are do you? In some urban areas a public defender can have hundreds of clients, not a lot of time to sit and chat with them about their cases. You'll know it's a public defender if they walk into the courtroom and ask for the person they're defending (though they'll ask by name of course, having it written down) to raise their hand. One of the things a police interrogator will say is that the plea deal is off the table if the person requests a lawyer "You can confess right now but if you bring a lawyer in here it'll get a lot more serious and we'll have to take it to court."

Hey, maybe you are too smart to fall for these tactics. But some people are scared and uneducated and they have to be home to take care of dependents. I don't think you can justify these kinds of tactics from a system that is supposed to be protecting just such vulnerable individuals.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 10:08:12 AM by Ratty »

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