Topic: Why death penalty?

[uzo]

Being held, and being arrested are two different things.

You cannot be held for over 24 hours. If you are arrested, then you become jailed and you are in a whole other situation all together. If you're at the point where you've been arrested, you should already have called a lawyer. If not, now's the time to do so. The mandatory reading of the Miranda Rights at the time of arrest even instruct you on this. You can't claim there was no good warning, or that they don't know better.

A confession and a plea bargain are not the same things either. You can confess without a plea bargain, and typically that's how police will try and approach it first. Plea bargains are used when the initial interrogation with intent for a confession fails. Both are an incentive to cooperate and save the police and counts time and money.

The police aren't this big demonic organization that you make them out to be. No matter how much you rant and rave, if your girlfriend gets shot tomorrow you'll be singing a wholly different fucking tune. You'll be on your knees begging the cops to do everything they can to assist your helpless ass, despise the shit you're spewing all over their image the day before. Despite that, they won't turn their back on you like you've turned your back on them.

You seriously watch too much TV, and read too much conspiracy theory garbage.

[Ratty]

Being held, and being arrested are two different things.

You cannot be held for over 24 hours. If you are arrested, then you become jailed and you are in a whole other situation all together. If you're at the point where you've been arrested, you should already have called a lawyer. If not, now's the time to do so. The mandatory reading of the Miranda Rights at the time of arrest even instruct you on this. You can't claim there was no good warning, or that they don't know better.

A confession and a plea bargain are not the same things either. You can confess without a plea bargain, and typically that's how police will try and approach it first. Plea bargains are used when the initial interrogation with intent for a confession fails. Both are an incentive to cooperate and save the police and counts time and money.

The police aren't this big demonic organization that you make them out to be. No matter how much you rant and rave, if your girlfriend gets shot tomorrow you'll be singing a wholly different fucking tune. You'll be on your knees begging the cops to do everything they can to assist your helpless ass, despise the shit you're spewing all over their image the day before. Despite that, they won't turn their back on you like you've turned your back on them.

You seriously watch too much TV, and read too much conspiracy theory garbage.

You assume a lot of things. I learned everything I've been talking about from an introduction to Criminal Justice class which was taught by someone who worked in high administrative positions in the corrections system for decades*. Mostly she worked in Prisons but she also dealt with the secret service in some way I was never too clear on. I think it was when people in prisons (mostly crazies) would send threatening letters to politicians. I don't think Police are evil, I just think the system they have to work in (or against) is set-up to fail right now and we're never going to fix it by pretending these problems don't exist. And yes a confession and a plea bargain are two different things but they go hand in hand a great deal of the time. And yes you can be charged and kept in jail awaiting trial on a flimsy word of a drug addict. Finally as I mentioned earlier a person who is grief stricken needs help, but they can't be expected to act or think totally rationally.

*She said the Attica prison riot happened on her first week working in the Department of Corrections in DC, and that the building was crazy with people running everywhere that week. So you can look up when that happened to see when she started, I think she's just teaching for extra money during retirement now.

PS - And like I said, just because you have the right to an attorney doesn't mean your public defender has more than a few minutes to spend with you or review your case.

[Kale]

You cannot blame the justice system, or the police, for anyone retarded enough to plead guilty while not being guilty. That is just complete bullshit.

If you admit guilt to a crime you have decided to take on the sole responsibility for that crime regardless if you did or did not do it.

Sure you can, clerical errors, pressuring, and the justice system is far from perfect, even more so, the jury of your peers.

Have you ever seen this?
Dont Talk to Police

It does tell you a lot,  it gives you the perspective of the Criminal Defense and in the second half, the Detective's side. Small technicalities can mess you up or let someone guilty free.

[TheouAegis]

And if you talk, they can look at your eyes and see what your eyes do while you talk, letting them know if you're lying. If you're not talking, you're just off looking elsewhere or fantasizing about sex with unicorns.

[cecil-kain]

Why does the United States support death penalty? I know that several states abolished it but it seems like a too major issue to be allowed to states' decision.

To begin, all 50 states have their own constitutions and codified laws.  For example, a murder committed in Florida is under Florida's jurisdiction --that is, the murderer would be subject to Florida's criminal justice system (and also its penalties)  Such a case wouldn't become a federal matter unless state lines are crossed --say for example, if a murderer flees Florida and takes refuge in Virginia...  That's when the Florida authorities might contact the Virginia authorities, or perhaps the FBI for assistance in bringing the murder to justice.  As for the federal (US) government, they don't waste their time prosecuting local criminals unless there is clearly a crime against the US government, its military, or its public officials --cases of domestic terrorism are also prosecuted by the US government as well...

Although the Death Penalties have been challenged through federal courts, the US Supreme Court has consistently upheld their legality.  Each state reserves the right to carry out its own system of justice as a matter of sovereignty.  An individual state's law cannot be struck down unless it comes into direct conflict with federal interests or otherwise violates the civil rights specifically outlined by the United States Constitution.  This is why the Death Penalty is most often an issue of "states' rights" instead of a federal issue.

The way I see it, death penalty, except in some very rare conditions, is not only cruel but also irrational. Does it create any actual deterrence? I find it hard to believe. I read that it actually wastes much more taxpayers' money for judicial purposes than life sentence, plus there's also always the chance the suspect may be innocent. And even if he's not, killing the person won't bring his victims back, and if the suspect is released after a long time he may become a productive member of society again. 
So eventually, it seems to me the penalty satisfies nothing but people's bloodlust.

Prisons should be a temporary place for broken people that still have some potential --a place they can learn from their mistakes and clean it up.  But for those that are just plain evil and destroy entire lives, that's a different matter.  Life Sentences are the American felon's retirement plan.  Providing them a lifetime of free food, shelter, medical care, and entertainment drains society of precious tax dollars and provides no benefits in return.

I believe in the Death Penalty.  If society has the courage to convict someone of a murder, they should have the courage to put that person to death.  The purpose shouldn't be about deterrence or revenge --it should be about eliminating society's cancer, providing closure to the victims, and then moving on.  Murderers deserve death.  Child Rapists deserve a choice between Castration-Penectomy or death.   Appeals should be strictly limited to what the convicted felons and their supporters can afford.  If criminal sympathizers and pro-life groups really care about these people, they should be the ones putting their money where their mouths are.

End of Opinion.

[Mooning Freddy]

Life Sentences are the American felon's retirement plan.  Providing them a lifetime of free food, shelter, medical care, and entertainment drains society of precious tax dollars and provides no benefits in return.

I disagree with this. Taking away a person's freedom can be a fate worse than death. Many people cannot bear the thought of rotting their entire life and prefer death. Of course, there is the argument that a person can get used to anything, even living in jail. I still disagree. I believe death should only be used as a political tool.

I believe in the Death Penalty.  If society has the courage to convict someone of a murder, they should have the courage to put that person to death.  The purpose shouldn't be about deterrence or revenge --it should be about eliminating society's cancer, providing closure to the victims, and then moving on.  Murderers deserve death.  Child Rapists deserve a choice between Castration-Penectomy or death.   

Your point makes no sense. If putting convicts to death for murder does not create deterrence than it's a vendetta. If it's neither of those, then it's pointless and achieves nothing.
Murder is not a disease and cannot be "cured". As long as there are people there will be murders. The question is what can be done to reduce it. I would have maybe supported the penalty if it did create deterrence (I don't know the statistics).
Pedophiles are ill and should be treated as such. I know that many of them have serious mental issues sometimes related to being abused as children. If they cannot be cured psychologically, and cannot control their actions, they should choose between being institutionalized or castrated. Why should we treat them differently than regular rapists? Their crime is not being attracted to children, it's abusing children. So they should be punished for the abuse and then treated to see if they can control their actions (both rapists and pedophiles).

[X]

I personally think the death penalty is nothing more then a modern act for humanity's lust for blood. We have been killing each other for countless millennium, either through wars or petty disputes. Murder begets murder and we're addicted to it. Modern policy would dictate that it's a necessary part of the justice system. But in reality they're participating in the exact same game as the criminal; A blood sport. The perpetrator murders and the populous uses the justice system to murder back and on and on and on... need I go on?

[uzo]

Never ran into many criminals, have you Freddy?

Let me tell you, criminals don't mind jail for he most part. For them it is a part of life. Mommy and or daddy went to jail, baby grows up, and then drops out of school to get thrown in jail soon after. They then get released, and repeat the cycle until death. To them it is just part of the life cycle, and they don't necessarily dislike it.

Watch crime rates for states with cold winters. Note the rise in crime just before winter. They do it on purpose, to get a warm place to stay, and food to eat. To them it's almost a break, a vacation. But what about freedom? Eh, at least you get three hots and a cot. It's good enough.

You are NOT dealing with sophisticated, intelligent, people here. You are dealing with lazy scumbags who don't give a shit about accomplishing anything. All they want is to mooch as much as they can so they don't have to work or do anything.

Instead lets start chopping off some fucking hands for burglaries and see how quick that shit stops.

In the case of life sentences? A lot of them learn to enjoy it. Think about it. They no longer care to be responsible. They can do whatever they want. Kill another guy in prison, who gives a shit? What are you going to do, LENGTHEN THEIR TIME? Hah! You have nothing left to punish them with.

[Ratty]

Never ran into many criminals, have you Freddy?

Let me tell you, criminals don't mind jail for he most part. For them it is a part of life. Mommy and or daddy went to jail, baby grows up, and then drops out of school to get thrown in jail soon after. They then get released, and repeat the cycle until death. To them it is just part of the life cycle, and they don't necessarily dislike it.

Watch crime rates for states with cold winters. Note the rise in crime just before winter. They do it on purpose, to get a warm place to stay, and food to eat. To them it's almost a break, a vacation. But what about freedom? Eh, at least you get three hots and a cot. It's good enough.

You are NOT dealing with sophisticated, intelligent, people here. You are dealing with lazy scumbags who don't give a shit about accomplishing anything. All they want is to mooch as much as they can so they don't have to work or do anything.

Instead lets start chopping off some fucking hands for burglaries and see how quick that shit stops.

In the case of life sentences? A lot of them learn to enjoy it. Think about it. They no longer care to be responsible. They can do whatever they want. Kill another guy in prison, who gives a shit? What are you going to do, LENGTHEN THEIR TIME? Hah! You have nothing left to punish them with.

Your view of the situation is too neat and black and white to fit with reality. The reason the prison population is growing exponentially and something like 1 in 100 adults are in prison in this "land of the free" and "home of the brave" of ours is that they're just stupid and lazy. In fact they like it, of course, why didn't we guess?
You realize we have more people in prison than China right? A supposed police state? Private prisons are a money making business as are to some extent the rest of the criminal justice system. As my instructor put it "the economy would collapse if crime stopped, because everyone in the Criminal Justice system would be out of a job".
This is the reason you see things like Police Unions opposing the repeal of harsh marijuana laws. Just look up the increase in the number of prisons and jails, private and public, in the last few decades along with the incarceration rate. As one man advertising to investors put it private prisons are an industry with "guaranteed growth". The reason private prisons exist, btw, is that they run cheaper because they can ignore humane government regulations federally run institutions must follow. You got a Prison you need more prisoners, you need more prisoners you need more lawyers etc. etc.

Catching and prosecuting white collar criminals is difficult because they can afford better representation and their crimes are generally viewed as less serious, despite the fact that on the whole more people are usually hurt by them. It is much easier and more reliable to go to the destitute neighborhoods and round people up to fill in your quota of arrests/convictions etc. Yes it is a sad fact that in many poor urban neighborhoods youth grow up expecting to go to prison because most of the older men in their community have gone to it at some point. You do see multigeneration gang families and so on. These are kids with no way out, they live in poor areas with terribly underfunded schools where only the worst teachers will go because of perceived danger and very low pay. Is it any wonder these kids turn to drugs and gangs for some kind of escape? Even if only an imagined one.
No, there are wicked people in the world, but the picture you paint is too simplistic.

PS- If I saw a guy committing crimes so he'd have a warm place to spend the winter and food to eat, I wouldn't say he's "cheating the system" so much as I would say that a system in which many states spend more on incarcerating people than on public education might just be a bad idea.

PPS- Yeah there's nothing they could do to punish someone with a life sentence. Except solitary confinement, loss of privileges, loss of the few possessions they were allowing her/him to have, only feeding them nutraloaf....

[Mooning Freddy]

Watch crime rates for states with cold winters. Note the rise in crime just before winter. They do it on purpose, to get a warm place to stay, and food to eat. To them it's almost a break, a vacation. But what about freedom? Eh, at least you get three hots and a cot. It's good enough.

You are NOT dealing with sophisticated, intelligent, people here. You are dealing with lazy scumbags who don't give a shit about accomplishing anything. All they want is to mooch as much as they can so they don't have to work or do anything.

I support Ratty's point here, UZO. People going to jail because they have no where else to go? What are you proving here? Because it sounds like you're saying that life fu**ed those people up, blaming the system. But you don't. You say that the people are scumbags who don't mind going to jail. Well, I highly doubt anyone likes jail, even in a Western country. ANY job in a western country is better than jail. If people want to mooch off the system, they can use social services, which is a different problem. And there ARE ways to punish people in jail. Solitary confinement for instance can drive a man insane. Eventually, if person is a repetitive offender, I could understand giving him the chair. But many murderers are not. Many people regret their actions and can get back to be good people after serving 15-25 years.
Ratty's got an interesting point here. I really don't understand why are jails privatized. They should belong to the state.
 

[uzo]

What a load of bullshit. Tell me, both of you, have you ever actually been in a jail? Worked around the inmates, and been a part of the system?

I do. This is how it is in reality. They don't care, don't ever want a job, just to keep coming back. In fact some of them CELEBRATE coming back! That's right Freddy, to them jail is much better than any job, they will tell you so themselves. Jail has more comforts than ever now. They get to lounge around all day, play games, go into the rec yard, watch tv, the works. Got some medical issues? Get arrested! They have to take care of it! Pregnant??? Just get arrested. They will have to cover it all! Think it's BS? Ive SEEN it. I LIVE this travesty every day. It happens and you can spew bullshit all you want but it DOESN'T change this fact.

And if you're on life you don't give a fuck about solitary half the time. Makes them insane? Are you kidding me?? You have no idea do you. What kind of person do you think is ON a life sentence?? They're already insane! If they were able to be rehabilitated, they wouldn't have a LIFE sentence!! Some of them will happily murder another inmate, they don't give a shit. Most of the time it's against sex offenders who someone tipped off a lifer about. I guess I can't complain too much about that, heh. But the point remains, they will forgo their privileges, gain some solitary time, and all without bothering to care.

How you people have this naive rose-tinted view of criminals is just beyond me. If you knew even half the things that go on in jails and prisons you wouldn't be sprouting this nonsense.

Every day these people gain more mandated privileges and rights. You know why state prisons are shutting down and going private? Because of this exactly. They're getting sued left and right for complete bullshit reasons and being forced to implement new things for the scumbag inmates that drain our tax money right away. States and countys are going BROKE because of inmates and the bullshit extra privileges and rights they get!

Here's a nice example; inmate dies by his own fault while attempting escape. The jail is sued for millions of dollars, because of these increasing bullshit rulings. It happened. It's complete bullshit but it really happened, and all the nice thoughts in the world can't erase it.

You want to fix half the problems? You want to lower inmate populations? Stop giving inmates more rights and protections than our average citizens. Stop making jail comfortable. Stop catering to them. Make jail and prison places they DO NOT want to return to. They are CRIMINALS, do not treat them like honored guests!

Start there, and then fix the other issues.

[cecil-kain]

I disagree with this. Taking away a person's freedom can be a fate worse than death. Many people cannot bear the thought of rotting their entire life and prefer death. Of course, there is the argument that a person can get used to anything, even living in jail. I still disagree. I believe death should only be used as a political tool.

I can see we have a philosophical disagreement on the treatment of criminals.  IMO punishment serves no real purpose, so disputing the better punishment is a pointless argument.  I believe the priorities are as follows.

1.  Protect the public by capturing the criminal.
2.  Determine the criminal's potential to return peacefully to society.
-----(a) Considering the nature and circumstances of the crime.
-----(b) Considering any past history of criminal behavior.
-----(c) Considering the risk of ongoing criminal behavior.
3.  Process the criminal accordingly.
-----(a) Imprison those with potential that are willing to train and reform their lives.
-----(b) Death to those guilty of heinous crimes, gross recidivism, or otherwise showing no potential.
-----(c) For those guilty of sex crimes, give them a choice --a Sexless Life or a Sexless Death.  For those that agree to a Sexless Life, surgically remove their testicles and penis (aka castration-penectomy).  Unless guilty of other crimes, they may go free after their surgery.

Your point makes no sense. If putting convicts to death for murder does not create deterrence than it's a vendetta. If it's neither of those, then it's pointless and achieves nothing.  Murder is not a disease and cannot be "cured". As long as there are people there will be murders. The question is what can be done to reduce it. I would have maybe supported the penalty if it did create deterrence (I don't know the statistics).

Deterrence is not the core issue here.  I feel like I'm about to overstate the obvious, but it needs to be said...

1. The dead commit no crimes --the probability of recidivism is ZER0%.
2. The dead do not require a lifetime of fruitless investment.  They require no food, shelter, medical care, or entertainment at the taxpayer's expense.

The Death Penalty's benefit to society couldn't be more clear.

Besides, the purpose of a criminal justice system is not to deter imaginary criminals from committing imaginary crimes.  The purpose of a criminal justice system is to process real criminals that have committed real crimes.  If executions were intended to make an example of heinous criminals, there would be still be public hangings for mass consumption --but this hasn't been done in the United States for at least the last 4 generations.

One last thought on deterrence --Saudi Arabia has a downright Draconian criminal justice system, but they also have one of the lowest crime rates in the entire world...

Pedophiles are ill and should be treated as such. I know that many of them have serious mental issues sometimes related to being abused as children. If they cannot be cured psychologically, and cannot control their actions, they should choose between being institutionalized or castrated.

Under the current system...  Imprisoning perverts tends to increase their perversions.  Unless they are guilty of other crimes, remove their offensive "tools" and set them free --or just put them to death.  Let them choose.

Why should we treat them differently than regular rapists?

I never said we should.  However, grown women are much more likely to make malicious accusations than little children.  As with all capital crimes, the burden of proof should be very high in any case.  But again, if society is going to convict someone of a sex crime, they must also be prepared to follow with an appropriate sentencing.

Their crime is not being attracted to children, it's abusing children. So they should be punished for the abuse and then treated to see if they can control their actions (both rapists and pedophiles).

There is evidence to suggest that deviant sexuality is hormonal as well a psychological.  Removing the testicles would help eliminate the hormonal element, but the psychology revolves around pleasure --and a man's pleasure revolves around his penis.  That is why I favor penectomy as well.

[Flame]

By the way, something I will NEVER understand. Tacking on multiple life sentences. What is the point..? A life sentence already dictates till the day they die.

[Mooning Freddy]

Well, that's a good point, UZO. Maybe the system is broken. Maybe jails should be made so people wouldn't like to return.
There's been this case in my country a couple of weeks ago: A large number of political prisoners (=terrorists) initiated a hunger strike to protest against their "worsened" conditions of imprisonment. The terroristic movements immediately responded with a threat that even if one prisoner dies they start a new wave of violence. Now that kind of situation is fucked. Terroristic movements make threats upon a state.
Now on the one hand, how are you creating deterrence here if murderers and their helpers are threatening you?
On the other hand, as a statesman you have a responsibility to prevent violence. What will you do? 

What is the point..? A life sentence already dictates till the day they die.

Not necessarily. In some countries sometimes a life sentence means 25-30 years and then being able to request parole. In my country sometimes in some cases a "life sentence" is limited to 20 years. Wiki says than in Britain for instance a prisoner can appeal to request parole after 15 years.
I guess multiple life sentences is in some cases a tool to present the severity of a certain crime. You know, like, "You deserve dying several times."

[Ratty]

What a load of bullshit. Tell me, both of you, have you ever actually been in a jail? Worked around the inmates, and been a part of the system?

I do. This is how it is in reality. They don't care, don't ever want a job, just to keep coming back. In fact some of them CELEBRATE coming back! That's right Freddy, to them jail is much better than any job, they will tell you so themselves.

You're talking about people who are prisonized. Prisonization is a well known phenomenon. When people spend a long amount of time (especially in their formative years) in prison they adjust to prison culture/values, which is vastly different from "outside". After spending 30 or even 10 years inside (especially if it was your late teens/20s) being outside of that culture must be very shocking. Particularly when you realize that (partly due to drastic cuts in funding for programs to teach inmates trade skills) the employment available to ex-cons is usually as unpleasant as it is sparse.

Jail has more comforts than ever now. They get to lounge around all day, play games, go into the rec yard, watch tv, the works.

They also lose access to friends and family except on designated times, phone rates from prison are insanely high so they can't even call that often. They are forced to associate with the other inmates despite any clashes in personality or worldview that might make them not get along. They don't get to choose their roommate and are under 24 hour surveillance, including when they go to the bathroom. Oh and they work and pay for many of the privileges you mention. Work itself is considered a privilege in prison.

Got some medical issues? Get arrested! They have to take care of it! Pregnant??? Just get arrested. They will have to cover it all! Think it's BS? Ive SEEN it. I LIVE this travesty every day. It happens and you can spew bullshit all you want but it DOESN'T change this fact.

So we're just supposed to let people in our care, which is what prisoners of the state are since we are the state at least in theory, die then?
I take it you work in a prison? I'm not surprised you've seen awful things and developed these views, people believe what they need to to get them through the night.

How you people have this naive rose-tinted view of criminals is just beyond me. If you knew even half the things that go on in jails and prisons you wouldn't be sprouting this nonsense.

What is beyond me is how you keep insisting that we have a romanticised view of prisoners. Have I said no one in prison should be there, and that they're all poets and folk heroes? No, I've simply stated and maintained that people are largely a product of their environment, and that such a high incarceration rate has largely social causes.

Every day these people gain more mandated privileges and rights. You know why state prisons are shutting down and going private? Because of this exactly. They're getting sued left and right for complete bullshit reasons and being forced to implement new things for the scumbag inmates that drain our tax money right away. States and countys are going BROKE because of inmates and the bullshit extra privileges and rights they get!

Really? Because all of the prisons and jails around here have made a ton of money. As someone who works in an institution I'm genuinely interested to hear which rights and privileges you consider too extreme.

Here's a nice example; inmate dies by his own fault while attempting escape. The jail is sued for millions of dollars, because of these increasing bullshit rulings. It happened. It's complete bullshit but it really happened, and all the nice thoughts in the world can't erase it.

I'm also genuinely interested in the conditions surrounding this incident. Could you link me to some info on it?