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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: KaZudra on May 19, 2014, 03:10:37 PM

Title: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: KaZudra on May 19, 2014, 03:10:37 PM
These are questions about the thinks that needed explanations, but we never got...




-If the toymaker made Alucard's whip, where was he in MoF?, more importantly, LoS2 states that he heart was locked away from Walter, soooo, what's up?
-If a Replica is an Exact Copy, why does Trevor's Vampire Killer look Different
-What makes Gabe's VK so special? LoS's story was the feats of the man, not the weapon, so why doesn't Trevor's VK kill Drac?
-Why Doesn't Viktor have Trevor's VK if the ending of MoF implies that Simon passes it down?
-why can't Alucard use the shield that is clearly sitting on his belt?
-Everything concerning Inner Dracula
-Everything concerning the magic castle on both Drac's and Alucard's ends
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: TatteredSeraph on May 19, 2014, 03:20:18 PM
The Toymaker seems to be hanging around in the background in MoF, after all, you see him during Trevor's section after the Daemon Lord is defeated by Trevor.  As for the 'shield' on Alucard's hip, I think that it was meant to be just fancy armour to protect his hip and thigh.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on May 19, 2014, 05:25:02 PM
The Toymaker seems to be hanging around in the background in MoF, after all, you see him during Trevor's section after the Daemon Lord is defeated by Trevor. 
That's true, but there's also the whole part about how he locked his heart away from Walter and went into slumber because of that. If he had his heart hidden and he went into slumber because of Walter, why did appear in MoF and why does he know about the events of MoF. The whole puppet play was to accent the tragic story of the Toymaker, making his "awakening" seem like it's been SINCE he went into slumber from Walter(which would predate the first LoS), but he obviously had to have been awake afterwards to have appeared in MoS and know of Gabula(which he obviously did). That only begs the question, why stress the reason why he was asleep(in the play) was NOT the reason he was asleep in LoS2? It WAS the initial event of slumber, but that wasn't important, given he DID awaken to loom over in the shadows in MoF, then for some strange reason, put himself to sleep again(in which he'd be awaken from in LoS2).

Don't forget how he looked in MoF was similar to how he looked when possessed by the castle's blood. Really, I love his design(probably my favorite in all of the LoS games), but they could've written his background a little better. It's kinda like what I was talking about in the other thread regarding continuity. If you are going to write a character's complete story/background, get it squared away and don't introduce new things as you along.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: darkwzrd4 on May 19, 2014, 05:42:40 PM
That's true, but there's also the whole part about how he locked his heart away from Walter and went into slumber because of that. If he had his heart hidden and he went into slumber because of Walter, why did appear in MoF and why does he know about the events of MoF. The whole puppet play was to accent the tragic story of the Toymaker, making his "awakening" seem like it's been SINCE he went into slumber from Walter(which would predate the first LoS), but he obviously had to have been awake afterwards to have appeared in MoS and know of Gabula(which he obviously did). That only begs the question, why stress the reason why he was asleep(in the play) was NOT the reason he was asleep in LoS2? It WAS the initial event of slumber, but that wasn't important, given he DID awaken to loom over in the shadows in MoF, then for some strange reason, put himself to sleep again(in which he'd be awaken from in LoS2).

Don't forget how he looked in MoF was similar to how he looked when possessed by the castle's blood. Really, I love his design(probably my favorite in all of the LoS games), but they could've written his background a little better. It's kinda like what I was talking about in the other thread regarding continuity. If you are going to write a character's complete story/background, get it squared away and don't introduce new things as you along.
I kind of get the feeling that despite how MS built up our hopes and anticipation for LoS2, they didn't really care about the game or the story that much. It's probably why we got that shitty ambiguous ending.
Here's another plot hole: Marie. In the first game after Satan is defeated, she ascends to heaven with the other spirits of the dead. Yet, in LoS2 she is back and flesh and blood as if she was alive and then once she has played her part, she is gone as if she was never there. Plus, you have her role in the DLC where she warped Trevorcard to different points in the castle once he reclaimed Gabula's void sword and chaos claws. Explain that. And, while I'm on the subject of Marie, explain Camilla in LoS2. Gabriel destroyed her in LoS1. How is she back?

Again, I don't think MS gave a damn about the LoS2's story or the consistency of the trilogy. It's like after LoS1 they stopped caring despite hyping the games. May that liar Cox suffer and slow painful death.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: KaZudra on May 19, 2014, 06:18:29 PM
The entire Toymaker issue just puts a thorn in my side, He's is legitimately a really good character, but ultimately pooped on with terrible plot-hole writing.
Same with Carmilla, there is no reason she should exist, even with a crackpot explanation that Dracula can travel through time still wouldn't explain how she ALREADY knows Dracula.


Also Cox didn't do anything wrong, based on what was there, he was spot on, the trailer DID imply that Dragon mode was playable, and the evidence that the game was butchered is all over the code AND invisible Platforms also helps this case.

Enric Álvarez is the true offender in this situation, being the Director AND writer, Cox was just a producer, and honestly should have had a tighter leash on Álvarez along with more time and money into the project. even the DLC didn't even answer any quistions, in fact it just pissed of the fans more.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Anglachel on May 19, 2014, 06:34:11 PM
I'm still curious how Alucard found out about the whole Satan spiel. I thought the long sleep he had made him forget about everything, and when he awoke, the Mirror only showed him what happened to himself. Perhaps he regained his memory of Gabriel's misfortune, but it's only a theory.

Also, Gabriel can turn into mist/bats in the epilogue. Clear plot hole, unless he lost that too fighting the Soldier of Satan in the alleyway.

I'm still really disappointed that the city was changed from the way the epilogue showed it. It would have been cool to have gothic architecture right next to glowing neon signs. Plus, I thought that there wasn't going to be "teleporting." Rather, the castle would be ruined by modern times and everything was built on that. And I also thought we'd be fighting Belmonts over many centuries (imagine fighting them during the time of the Gulf War.)

Where's the Lost Soul? Where did the fragments of the Mirror come from? Why does Zobek, the Lord of the Dead, need a bodyguard when he had(s?) servants of powerful Necromancers?

Devil Mask plothole still ignored.

What did Alucard do with Dark Pain?
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Flame on May 19, 2014, 09:45:18 PM
Marie is still dead, She seems to be able to leave Heaven at will or something.

Carmilla is easy to explain. her blood runs through Gabe's undead veins. She became his grandmother when he took laura's blood. And Since the castle is this whole manifestation of his power, she manifested as well. And Since the castle and his own vampiric nature are rebelling against him so he doesn't leave the castle, she manifests as a possessive entity bent on keeping Gabriel in the castle. She's not the carmilla we knew. She's a phantom created from Dracul's blood, memories, and the power of the castle.

Toymaker was definitely a plothole.

Young Trevor and the wolf are as well.  Supposedly they are tied to Alucard, or perhaps Marie, but the game never explains how.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Dremn on May 19, 2014, 09:55:12 PM
Yea the entirety of Lords is a big mess. I made a big thread reflecting on the LoS series after LoS2 was out and the unexplained plotholes in the story connecting all three games really irk me the most about LoS. For a reboot trying to be so serious it had a bad habit of forgetting about of a lot of key things or pretending some of it didn't matter.

The biggest thing that will always bug me is the validity of the Combat Cross being the only weapon capable of killing Dracula, it was never fully explained or touched upon what made it such an important weapon. Like KaZiZ said LoS was all about the feats of Gabriel, he had magic at his disposal but the Combat Cross was a man made weapon, and it didn't become a vampire killing tool until the stake was attached.

Heck they never explained why Gabriel was going around upgrading the Combat Cross in the first place or how he knew about it.

Then in LoS2 it can apparently kill Satan for good even though he's not a vampire? But we can talk forever in another thread about how sloppy LoS2's ending was.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Flame on May 19, 2014, 11:13:33 PM
Heck they never explained why Gabriel was going around upgrading the Combat Cross in the first place or how he knew about it.
How do classic belmonts upgrade their whip from leather to a flail, to a chain whip? :P

it falls into 'videogamey" territory. Also, its not hard- it says that lots of the upgrades were upgrades gandolfi made but which were not sanctioned by the Brotherhood, so he left them scattered around in brotherhood crypts. as for how gabe knew, well, there's a thing shaped like the combat cross. "i wonder what happens if I put it in there?"

also, he probably knew about the upgrades if he was the guy who used the weapon.

as for how its so special, Im gonna just guess it was just the best thing gandolfi ever made. It was just a high class weapon in it's own right, that became super powerful when it was fully upgraded with more holy shit. And so copies of it just can't stand up to it's power. they can kill lesser undead and such, but against Dracula, it can not kill him completely, because only the VK stake can.

remember, Simon still defeated Dracula by stabbing him. he just didn;t finish him off the way Gabe finished off Carmilla.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: SSBBfan666 on May 20, 2014, 12:41:11 AM
allow me to answers some of the 'plotholes'.

1. The reason why the Vampire Killer was the most powerful weapon in the trilogy (and the only weapon capable of killing a true immortal like Dracula) is beacuse the weapons was forged from one of the nails that was used to crucify Jesus, says so right in the travelbook oin the first game. So essentially it would make sense that the VK is the ultimate symbol of god and everything holy, it had the blood of said god/jesus assmiliatted into it (sorta) therefor his/her/its power as well, the upgrades just made it better.

2.  The Toy Maker was 'woken up' by Dracula in the past for some assistance (shits&giggles) in creating more creatures for the castle (the puppets, the resurrected Daemon Lord, etc) and other things (the Electric Batteries Trevor finds and makes use as secondary weapons) while the Toy Maker didn't really come back (due to his heart still in hiding amongst his puppets) Dracula may have let the castle blood animate him for the Vampire Lords benefit (his corrupted appearance in Mirror of Fate. this would also lead to how the old man recognizes the Prince after regaining his memories, he would see what Dracula had him do while under the influence of the blood/curse) maybe his disappearance afterword would be that he was taken to heaven.

3. Carmilla, the secuctive witch/vampire queen. while she was killed off for good in the first game, Inner-Dracula, in the blood form, didn't want the only thing keeping it alive leaving the castle, so it tried a different approach at first with making a doppelganger of one the few woman that could have an effect on the Prince of Darkness (besides Marie since she was protected by god to help her husband, and possibly Laura, though she is gone) so it created the twisted clone of the late Queen based of the time she lived in said castle (the thing was around since the Bernhards, since they summoned it, and was bound to the castle in a form of sentience. So it would obviously know of who and what has been going on from its arrival to defeat at the hands of the one who's power kept it alive)+ add the knowledge of how the two initially met and what it knew of Carmilla (she had a slight attraction to Gabriel in the first game as well as her human appearance) and ramp that up to yandare qualities and you got yourself a twisted copy of the original.

4. The 'shield' on Alucards hip isn't really much of an effective itm to use as a shield, i think it was more of a place to store items (like Gabriel's pouch for Dark Crystals in the first game)+ it also helped holster Alucard's sword (The Crissaegrim) when he was still using the sheathe for it.

5. Marie coming back in LoS2 was god's way of steering Dracula away from his monstorous habits, helping Alucard and Marie in his/she/it's own way. he/she/it may have had a hand in Gabriel becoming  Dracula (as he was the only one who could stop Satan (to the point that Satan was terrified of the prospect of going head to head against the Vampire Lord with god-like powers) but the god didn't want to go down and risk being killed by a pissed off Dracula (with its own power, the Vampire Killer). back to the point, once Marie did her part in helping her husband, she was taken back to heaven (not really sure why, as i'm sure she wanted to be there for her husband and son) this just makes me wish for a epic family reunion including Victor, Simon Sypha Marie and the two vampires.

6. The only 'past' segment of the game, where you legitimatly were in midevil times after Mirror of Fate was essentially the prologue only (the meeting between father and son just showed what happened after the Great Explosion and leading to Dracula disappearance along with the castle vanishing. all the other segments where you went back to the castle took place in a seperate dimension (possibly the same dimansion where Gabriel struck down the Forgotten One) that was outside of the boundries of time and space but connected in several areas that aloowed Dracula to go back and forth between the two settings (Modern Times and the Castle).

7. The way Alucard knew of Satan and Zobek was through the mirro on the night he died, as he lay there dying, he saw what really happened to his dad and how he became Dracula. After the events of Mirror of Fate, durin the time from then till their meeting Alucard would eventually formulate a plan to get back at the Lord of the Dead and the Fallen Angel for what they did to the family. to an end hissword also played a special part. Also the Mirror of Fate was sentient in a way, as stated by young Trevor/ the Lost Soul being part of it.  Alucard also would have tracked and studied the Acolytes from afar to find out how they woul play a role in Satan's return later on, something he would end up informing his father on.

8. Zobek needed a bodyguard as he was stripped of all his power right after his first death (at Satan's hands) and woke up in the realm of  the dead (Limbo?) so he obsessivly researched and tried to recollect his power to come back to the mortal realm (which worked later, as seen in LoS2). so he created his bodyguard as a means for protection, seeing as he knew of the acolytes. he also collected the Vampire Killer as a way of getting Dracula to help him stop Satan and his children by making a deal he knew Dracula seemingly couldn't refuse (didn't work out for the Lord of the Dead though). however, Alucard also noticed this and would inform his old man of the wherabouts of his old weapon.

9. Victor's combat cross is most likely the same on that Simon used during his confrontation with his gramps (which was orifginally Trevor's). it would have been heavily modified like the Seraph Shoulders, Dark Gauntlet and Cyclone Boots that Victor also had on him. The devil mask was most likely left where it was, Zobek retrieved it , or it was sucked into hell for unknown reasons.

10. Alucard most likely stopped using the Dark Pain, seeing as it reminded him of his former life as a human, wasn't as effective as the Crissaegrim, or has it stored away in his poct dimension.

That's all i answered for now, feel free to contribute.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: EstebanT on May 20, 2014, 09:12:56 AM
@ SSBBfan666
I think the majority of what you listed seem like the most reasonable explanations for the plot holes in the series. Many of what you listed I thought of myself as possibilities.

That being said... A lot of those were not properly explained in game and many other just as likely guesses could be made that are different from yours, AKA you pulled them out of your ass.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Dremn on May 20, 2014, 09:40:57 AM
1. The reason why the Vampire Killer was the most powerful weapon in the trilogy (and the only weapon capable of killing a true immortal like Dracula) is beacuse the weapons was forged from one of the nails that was used to crucify Jesus, says so right in the travelbook oin the first game. So essentially it would make sense that the VK is the ultimate symbol of god and everything holy, it had the blood of said god/jesus assmiliatted into it (sorta) therefor his/her/its power as well, the upgrades just made it better.

Well, jeez.

Ok, that explains everything then. :p
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: crisis on May 20, 2014, 10:11:14 AM
they shoulda just never had Gabrian shatter the CC in the DLC cuz TBH it didnt make sense AFAIK and IIRC Zobek shouldnt have been able to touch it let alone rebuild it YGWIS?

the Necronomnomicon in MOF says his master desired Trevo's CC but for what purpose? Zobek already had the original. theres another plothole (inb4 random explanation "well maybe he needed it to see how to accurately reconstruct the original" blah blah, thats just nonsense lol)

i woulda preferred Gabrian CC being passed down the bloodline, with a "the weapon I once used, is now used against me" context. tragic irony/poetic justice, ya know? and that idea is infinitely better than the "multiple copies" poppycock that was in this saga
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Anglachel on May 20, 2014, 10:42:13 AM
they shoulda just never had Gabrian shatter the CC in the DLC cuz TBH it didnt make sense AFAIK and IIRC Zobek shouldnt have been able to touch it let alone rebuild it YGWIS?

the Necronomnomicon in MOF says his master desired Trevo's CC but for what purpose? Zobek already had the original. theres another plothole (inb4 random explanation "well maybe he needed it to see how to accurately reconstruct the original" blah blah, thats just nonsense lol)

i woulda preferred Gabrian CC being passed down the bloodline, with a "the weapon I once used, is now used against me" context. tragic irony/poetic justice, ya know? and that idea is infinitely better than the "multiple copies" poppycock that was in this saga

When I played through it, I thought that Zobek wanted it because he thought that it could kill Dracula. Maybe he planned on using to against Dracula to save himself.

Or, perhaps Zobek realized that Trevor's combat cross wasn't powerful enough to kill Dracula, and instead sought the true Vampire Killer that Gabriel used.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: darkwzrd4 on May 20, 2014, 12:00:05 PM
Or, maybe Zobek needed Trevor's to better understand how to reassemble Gabriel's CC.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: KaZudra on May 20, 2014, 02:09:57 PM
Well, not to be an asshole, but Nails used to Crucify Martyrs =/= Jesus. I dunno why the misconception of Jesus being the only one crucified even exists.

Also, If the Holy Order's weapons don't work on Drac, how could Simon and Alucard defeat Dracula?
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: darkwzrd4 on May 20, 2014, 05:21:56 PM


Also, If the Holy Order's weapons don't work on Drac, how could Simon and Alucard defeat Dracula?
Simple. It's in their blood. Even before becoming a vampire, Gabriel was able to take down the Lords of Shadow. Something no one else could do. Not to mention that he, a mere mortal, defeated Satan. It would seem that he and his bloodline were chosen by God (or whoever).

It is not the weapons they wield. It is the Belmont bloodline that accomplishes these great (good or evil) things.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: crisis on May 20, 2014, 05:33:03 PM
gotta love them Cronqvist Warlord Chromosones

biggest plothole of all:

"BREAK THE CURSE OF IMMORTALITY"
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Flame on May 20, 2014, 06:56:58 PM
Well, not to be an asshole, but Nails used to Crucify Martyrs =/= Jesus. I dunno why the misconception of Jesus being the only one crucified even exists.

Also, If the Holy Order's weapons don't work on Drac, how could Simon and Alucard defeat Dracula?
I think it's the fact of them specifically being the ones used to crucify Jesus.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Inccubus on May 20, 2014, 07:05:21 PM
I suppose it would be somewhat pedantic of me to mention that by definition none of the questions in this thread are plot holes since plot holes are contradictions in the plot not unanswered questions.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Ahasverus on May 21, 2014, 08:46:23 AM
The Devil's Mask is not a plothole. Cox said in twitter that a Necromancer uses an object to place his soul to return. Yes, like Voldemort does. The Devil's Mask was Zobek's "horocrux". That's how he came back. It can be especulated that he's not dead by LoS2 ending as he could have another "horocrux" (The Vampire Killer?)

Also the VK is the holiest of holiest weapoins as it's composed of all of Gandolfi's own creations, the other combat crosses are not Gandolfi's.

Also, If the Holy Order's weapons don't work on Drac, how could Simon and Alucard defeat Dracula?
Because they can't. Remember, Dracula is not immortal in the sense that nothing could kill him, but in the sense that he will ALWAYS come back, unless the Vk is used.

Alucard probably regained his memory with time, his initial confusion was product of his awakening. He remembered Simon not long after. His memories are intact.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Shinobi on May 21, 2014, 09:28:55 AM
I always thought that those rooms where you upgrade the Combat Cross is no longer functional once it was used for just one time only, that's how rare or special Gabriel's Combat Cross/Vampire Killer above the other Combat Cross.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Inccubus on May 22, 2014, 12:01:46 AM
The Devil's Mask is not a plothole. Cox said in twitter that a Necromancer uses an object to place his soul to return. Yes, like Voldemort does. The Devil's Mask was Zobek's "horocrux". That's how he came back. It can be especulated that he's not dead by LoS2 ending as he could have another "horocrux" (The Vampire Killer?)

In D&D Liches of exceptional power (called Demi-liches for whatever reason) have an artifact where they keep their soul due to the continued degridation of their original bodies over time called a phylactery which is probably where J.K. Rolling got the idea for the horocrux. So the use of something similar in LoS isn't a stretch.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: TatteredSeraph on May 22, 2014, 01:49:21 AM
gotta love them Cronqvist Warlord Chromosones

biggest plothole of all:

"BREAK THE CURSE OF IMMORTALITY"

  The supposed 'reasoning' for this that I imagine that was come up with is that by the end, as Gabriel and Alucard have found that they now have something to live for - family - their immortality is no longer a curse to them, a bind that they previously both wanted out of.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Flame on May 22, 2014, 03:12:33 AM
  The suppose 'reasoning' for this that I imagine that was come up with is that by the end, as Gabriel and Alucard have found that they now have something to live for - family - their immortality is no longer a curse to them, a bind that they previously both wanted out of.
be nice if the game mentioned that.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: TatteredSeraph on May 22, 2014, 03:31:10 AM
be nice if the game mentioned that.

"But we don't want to spoon-feed everything!".  Well, there's leaving bits implied, and leaving too much unexplained.

  I think that a major problem with LoS2 is that that the plot to filler ratio is too low, with the plot divided up into clear-cut, very compartmentalized sections that are left alone once their ten minutes of screen time are finished.  These bits of plot, which aren't insignificant, are rushed through, but then there's hours of trudging through filler to get to the next bit in some cases, especially with teh retrieve the antidote part of the game.  This in turn left for a lot of things which were lef unexplained, to the game's detriment.  Had there been big chunks of plenty of plot more frequently in the game, the hours of explorin would have been a lot more balanced.  Missed opportunity.  It's a shame, relaly, ad has been said before on here, one of the biggest disappoitnments was the potential that this game had had to be amazing, but fell at the last hurdle in places.  LoS2 should have had a much bigger plot than 1, but it felt smaller in places.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: KaZudra on May 22, 2014, 08:07:53 AM
The biggest one of all, after spending hundreds of years yearning to die, why all of the sudden is Gabula is just "Cool" with being immortal at the end?
This was a man whom everything was taken away from him and he has become a monster, yet he is god's chosen.


I think LoS2 severely lacked the needed anger at god that Dracula should have had.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: darkwzrd4 on May 22, 2014, 09:14:01 AM
The biggest one of all, after spending hundreds of years yearning to die, why all of the sudden is Gabula is just "Cool" with being immortal at the end?
This was a man whom everything was taken away from him and he has become a monster, yet he is god's chosen.


I think LoS2 severely lacked the needed anger at god that Dracula should have had.
I know what you mean. I guess you could say that Gabula underwent some sort of redemption and came out at piece with himself. No longer letting fate/destiny dictate his path. Plus, now he has an eternity to spend with his son. Keep in mind, that I think that it was a sh!tty end and that Gabula should have just died at the end.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Anglachel on May 22, 2014, 11:12:11 AM
The biggest one of all, after spending hundreds of years yearning to die, why all of the sudden is Gabula is just "Cool" with being immortal at the end?
This was a man whom everything was taken away from him and he has become a monster, yet he is god's chosen.


I think LoS2 severely lacked the needed anger at god that Dracula should have had.

Speaking of which, where was God in the 2nd game? Why did they leave him out and replace him with "fate?" Was it too un-mainstream to have God be a directing force in a game like the first one? Having the whole "fate" spiel was so cliche and boring.  :-\
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Ahasverus on May 22, 2014, 11:43:18 AM
The biggest one of all, after spending hundreds of years yearning to die, why all of the sudden is Gabula is just "Cool" with being immortal at the end?
"Remember, after all this is over, choose your family".
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: e105beta on May 22, 2014, 01:03:27 PM
Speaking of which, where was God in the 2nd game? Why did they leave him out and replace him with "fate?" Was it too un-mainstream to have God be a directing force in a game like the first one? Having the whole "fate" spiel was so cliche and boring.  :-\

LoS1 probably flew under the radar because it was a cult hit, but LoS2 had to be mainstream, and thus had to fit the mainstream standard. Mainstream games empower you, make you feel bigger than anything else. They are about killing God/gods, not about futilely struggling against them. Probably why the only reason he was mentioned in LoS2 was when Dracula was giving his "I am and will forever be a thorn in his side!" rant.

Seriously, though, you could replace almost every instance of "Fate" in the LoS series with "God" or something of the like and it would make MORE sense.

"I know all. I am here to make sure everything happens tonight as it is supposed to happen. I am here to guide you."
"Guide me? I don't need anyone to guide or direct me. Move aside!"
"As you wish. However God already has a plan for you and there is nothing you can do to change it. I am sorry to say that you will not achieve your objective, and your wife and son will suffer the consequences of your failure." - The Mirror of Fate and Trevor, Castlevania: Lords of Shadow: Mirror of Fate

"I have fought against God, even though it was in vain. But you, you accepted God's plan. You were betrayed at every turn, yet you still followed the path set out for you even when that betrayal included your own wife. God is cruel, but in the end, I pity you, father." -Trevor, Castlevania: Lords of Shadow: Mirror of Fate

"It seems God has given me a second chance. I have come to finish what I started!" - Alucard, Castlevania: Lords of Shadow: Mirror of Fate

"No one knows what God has in store" - Dracula, Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 2

And instead of the "Spirit of the Mirror of Fate" which in the grand scheme of things just comes off as a plot device, just make him the "Angel of Fate"

"Remember, after all this is over, choose your family".

Marie is his family too. That could have just meant don't give into the evil Dracula blood again.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Ahasverus on May 22, 2014, 01:18:43 PM
Marie is his family too. That could have just meant don't give into the evil Dracula blood again.
Well, Marie is in heaven and happy, Alucard is still on earth, cursed, and never had a father. I think Trevor needs him more than with Marie. Unless they both kill themselvs to be "free" which is, well, disturbing lol
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: darkwzrd4 on May 22, 2014, 06:28:10 PM
Well, being that they killed Satan and saved the world, they could be rewarded for all they went through by having their humanity restored and living in the modern era as humans, or "God" could just purify them (essentially painlessly killing them) so that they could ascend to Heaven to be with Marie and live as a happy family for eternity.

Then again, being the cruel jerk that he is, god could just send them both to Hell. I mean it would be par for the course considering how both Gabula and Trevorcard lost everything including their humanity and are now cursed beings (vampires).
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Ahasverus on May 22, 2014, 06:30:10 PM
LoS' God is a true asshole.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Anglachel on May 22, 2014, 06:33:44 PM
Also, remember this line from the first game?

"It is what is in men's hearts that He cares about. He loves you as He loves me. We have only to ask for forgiveness deep within ourselves and be welcomed back."

I was SO expecting that to be a central, underlying theme in the 2nd game, where perhaps Dracula realizes that he does, in fact, care about the world.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: e105beta on May 22, 2014, 09:45:53 PM
Also, remember this line from the first game?

"It is what is in men's hearts that He cares about. He loves you as He loves me. We have only to ask for forgiveness deep within ourselves and be welcomed back."

I was SO expecting that to be a central, underlying theme in the 2nd game, where perhaps Dracula realizes that he does, in fact, care about the world.

Yeah, that just goes back to how they dropped the ball on the entire redemption plot in the second game. By excising God out of LoS2, they destroyed the layers, upon layers, upon layers of thematic background they had set-up in LoS1. They destroyed Dracula's whole reason for being. Instead of a game where you play a real asshole who eventually finds his humanity and learns to forgive and love again, you get some wishy-washy anti-hero who never ends up making any strong decisions other than "DRACULA SMASH PUNY SATAN!" Ugh, and they hinted to it SO MUCH. I'll never really "get over it" in the sense that it'll always be a complete waste of writing to me.

I'm still amazed the same man wrote LoS1 and LoS2. I honest to Fate (*insert chuckle here*) think executives had something to do with it.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Flame on May 22, 2014, 10:19:02 PM
think executives had something to do with it.
Yeah. Alvarez. He IS the executives.

If what that guy said is the way it went, then after LoS1 hit big, it went to his head and his 'vision' of some epic is what ended up ruining the game due to the clashes with everyone else.

It IS possible that LoS1 was a fluke on Alvarez' part. Also, LoS1 had 3 writers aside from Alvarez, including Eddie Deighton and Dave Cox himself. I don't know about Eddie, but Cox at least is the CV fan in that lineup. he's also the Konami supervisor, so i imagine his opinions hold weight, even over Alvarez.

From the looks of it however, and I can't find any info on this- but it seems like LoS2 might have been written entirely by Alvarez himself. the story definitely FEELS like something that would happen when there's only one writer and no others to check and edit the work. LoS1 has a nicely crafted plot and storyline, and the writing is pretty good. there was a TEAM working on that script and story. MoF had a TEAM of at least 2 people writing, once again including Dave Cox, who along with Jose Luis Márquez, are both Castlevania fans. MoF is a simpler game, and also, despite it's TWEESTS and whatnot, is when you think about it, a very simple plot, that 2 people can definitely make work.

LoS2 meanwhile, definitely would have needed at least 3 people again, maybe even 1 more, given the scope of the now established plotline, and the fact that it was a closing game.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Intersection on May 23, 2014, 06:09:50 AM
As far as I'm concerned, LoS2 didn't have any plot holes -- LoS2 was a plot hole. For all it's worth, you might as well write a synopsis of the game's story and slap it on to this thread; it'd be the most exhaustive post yet.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: e105beta on May 23, 2014, 09:07:42 AM
Yeah. Alvarez. He IS the executives.

If what that guy said is the way it went, then after LoS1 hit big, it went to his head and his 'vision' of some epic is what ended up ruining the game due to the clashes with everyone else.

It IS possible that LoS1 was a fluke on Alvarez' part. Also, LoS1 had 3 writers aside from Alvarez, including Eddie Deighton and Dave Cox himself. I don't know about Eddie, but Cox at least is the CV fan in that lineup. he's also the Konami supervisor, so i imagine his opinions hold weight, even over Alvarez.

From the looks of it however, and I can't find any info on this- but it seems like LoS2 might have been written entirely by Alvarez himself. the story definitely FEELS like something that would happen when there's only one writer and no others to check and edit the work. LoS1 has a nicely crafted plot and storyline, and the writing is pretty good. there was a TEAM working on that script and story. MoF had a TEAM of at least 2 people writing, once again including Dave Cox, who along with Jose Luis Márquez, are both Castlevania fans. MoF is a simpler game, and also, despite it's TWEESTS and whatnot, is when you think about it, a very simple plot, that 2 people can definitely make work.

LoS2 meanwhile, definitely would have needed at least 3 people again, maybe even 1 more, given the scope of the now established plotline, and the fact that it was a closing game.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Alvarez.

But while I don't disagree with anything you said, LoS2's story doesn't just feel different from LoS1's story, it feels different from itself. It doesn't have any consistency. It feels like at one point LoS2 was being written by multiple people but Alvarez took complete control of it by the end.

That being said, after hearing how the ending was supposed to be "remembered and discussed for a long time", and getting the ending we got, I feel like Konami came in and said "We want an open ended ending in case this game gets huge". If it fails, then nobody suffers but the players, and if it succeeds, Konami can milk the cash cow. Alvarez was done with the game either way.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Asgardwolf on May 24, 2014, 12:40:19 PM
When Dracula is arguing with Alucard about all their plan and before he`s impaled with the crissaegrim he said if he dies some one else will just take his place as the evil that reign. With Satan and Zobek dead He prob`lly can`t die for the same reason, if he does some one else will take his place anyways and that`s maybe Drac and Al way to keep evil on watch and controlled.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Anglachel on May 24, 2014, 03:12:57 PM
When Dracula is arguing with Alucard about all their plan and before he`s impaled with the crissaegrim he said if he dies some one else will just take his place as the evil that reign. With Satan and Zobek dead He prob`lly can`t die for the same reason, if he does some one else will take his place anyways and that`s maybe Drac and Al way to keep evil on watch and controlled.

While that makes sense, it's certainly not implied during the ending. Dracula just walks away and Alucard stands there?
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: crisis on May 29, 2014, 08:48:08 PM
so who wrote that book that Dracula reads in the third act so he can recall his past? and why is it conveniently placed behind the throne room? who put it there?
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Flame on May 29, 2014, 09:53:06 PM
so who wrote that book that Dracula reads in the third act so he can recall his past? and why is it conveniently placed behind the throne room? who put it there?
Dracula probably. It's probably his chronicles or some shit.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: darkmanx_429 on May 30, 2014, 03:53:57 AM
Yeah. Alvarez. He IS the executives.

If what that guy said is the way it went, then after LoS1 hit big, it went to his head and his 'vision' of some epic is what ended up ruining the game due to the clashes with everyone else.

It IS possible that LoS1 was a fluke on Alvarez' part. Also, LoS1 had 3 writers aside from Alvarez, including Eddie Deighton and Dave Cox himself. I don't know about Eddie, but Cox at least is the CV fan in that lineup. he's also the Konami supervisor, so i imagine his opinions hold weight, even over Alvarez.


From the looks of it however, and I can't find any info on this- but it seems like LoS2 might have been written entirely by Alvarez himself. the story definitely FEELS like something that would happen when there's only one writer and no others to check and edit the work. LoS1 has a nicely crafted plot and storyline, and the writing is pretty good. there was a TEAM working on that script and story. MoF had a TEAM of at least 2 people writing, once again including Dave Cox, who along with Jose Luis Márquez, are both Castlevania fans. MoF is a simpler game, and also, despite it's TWEESTS and whatnot, is when you think about it, a very simple plot, that 2 people can definitely make work.

LoS2 meanwhile, definitely would have needed at least 3 people again, maybe even 1 more, given the scope of the now established plotline, and the fact that it was a closing game.

I agree. What a disappointment with LOS2. I probably will never play it a second go around or try to get 100%.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Anglachel on May 30, 2014, 01:22:15 PM
Dracula probably. It's probably his chronicles or some shit.

Man, now I want to see what's in there. It would be interesting to see what this Dracula has been through after Mirror of Fate.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on May 30, 2014, 10:15:25 PM
Man, now I want to see what's in there. It would be interesting to see what this Dracula has been through after Mirror of Fate.

It would just probably say
Dear Diary,
I HATE MY LIFE!

Or something along that line. He might expound a bit and put on some angsty reactions.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Chernabogue on May 30, 2014, 10:52:45 PM
It would just probably say
Dear Diary,
I HATE MY LIFE!

Or something along that line. He might expound a bit and put on some angsty reactions.
I think he wrote that on the walls of the Forbidden Wing with his blood.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Flame on May 31, 2014, 05:06:06 PM
I think he wrote that on the walls of the Forbidden Wing with his blood.
The walls of the forbidden wing were more about revenge and "GABRIEL BELMONT IS DEAD" kind of stuff.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: crisis on May 31, 2014, 06:30:29 PM
it would have been phat if the toy maker's role was larger to the plot. like, having inventing a specific device to seal stan away for good, explaining why Dracula had to reawaken him (other than retrieving a shard of the mirror). instead we get wasted potential with the acolytes. by the way where is the lost soul

1 of the acolytes couldve even had the last name "cronqvist," wouldve been a cool ironic twist
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Anglachel on May 31, 2014, 07:37:29 PM
it would have been phat if the toy maker's role was larger to the plot. like, having inventing a specific device to seal stan away for good, explaining why Dracula had to reawaken him (other than retrieving a shard of the mirror). instead we get wasted potential with the acolytes. by the way where is the lost soul

1 of the acolytes couldve even had the last name "cronqvist," wouldve been a cool ironic twist

Especially considering that he was given a mysterious appearance in Mirror of Fate, we all thought that he would play a bigger role in the game. It has crossed my mind a few times of the Toy Maker having some "ultimate weapon" to seal Satan away. Maybe he actually is Gandolfi, and he somehow rebuilt the Vampire Killer but it was stolen by Zobek. Perhaps he creates a teleporter that allows Dracula entry into Castle Pandemonium (fanfic here) where Dracula, Alucard, and Victor face off against Lucifer.

Lost Soul is the mirror. Since it seems the mirror is sentient and all knowing (and not the greatest plot device) perhaps it does not need to take the form of the Lost Soul anymore, at least that's what I think.

Shoulda just gone with what e105beta suggested. Make Lost Soul the "Angel of Fate" and replace "fate" with God's plan. Makes more sense lore-wise and suits the atmosphere better.

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on May 31, 2014, 08:35:37 PM
Perhaps he creates a teleporter that allows Dracula entry into Castle Pandemonium (fanfic here) where Dracula, Alucard, and Victor face off against Lucifer.
Really, the whole Castle Pandemonium thing was a lost opportunity. Given the fact this is Castlevania, having the final stretch of the LoS series's climax be in an actual CASTLE, let alone a "Demon Castle" of Lucifer(maybe a mocking manifestation Dracula's own castle, as created by Lucifer) would've been great.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: Anglachel on June 01, 2014, 12:41:09 PM
Really, the whole Castle Pandemonium thing was a lost opportunity. Given the fact this is Castlevania, having the final stretch of the LoS series's climax be in an actual CASTLE, let alone a "Demon Castle" of Lucifer(maybe a mocking manifestation Dracula's own castle, as created by Lucifer) would've been great.

Satan is obviously scared of Dracula. Wouldn't it funny if him having his own castle was him trying to "compensate for something," trying to display power and strength over Dracul when in reality he is still scared shitless of him? (Satan trying to show he has grandes cajones)

And think of the architecture or the inhabitants. We could have gone through Satan's top generals in the castle. Imagine fighting Satan in the end while being watched and surveyed by ALL of the demons cast out of heaven. They're probably scared of Dracula too.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow plotholes (may contain spoilers)
Post by: darkwzrd4 on June 02, 2014, 08:58:06 AM
That's one thing that never made sense to me. Why is Satan afraid of Dracula? He was so arrogant in LoS1. Being defeated doesn't make you afraid of the person who defeated you unless they completely owned your ass (was not the case in LoS1). Angry and vengeful I could see, but not afraid. Zobek I could see being afraid, but not Satan.