Topic: AOS or DOS?

[suomynona]

I'll keep it short since I'm on mobile.

Don't judge story by gameplay because it's not rational; thank you plottwist.
Furthermore Trevor and 3 other people defeat Dracula in CV III. This mode of switching players is based on CV III. POR is irrelevant because it's the exact same scenario, switch between 2 characters, but canonically all the protagonists are fighting together.

C4 I'm not really fussed if you believe the non-narrative endings to be canon, but there's only one REAL ending for each game. The reason I don't consider what I believe are "non-canon" endings (the ones which don't continue the story) to be canon is that you have to then consider every non-canon ending to be canon. The only time I consider this is if a plot/ narrative/ timeline can actually continue (see my signature) OR when the plot makes sense and stops the player from doing what they shouldn't be able to do i.e.
- Sisters mode in POR is canon, they can't beat Brauner and the story doesn't allow it.
- Richter and Maria mode in POR is non-canon for obvious reasons.
- AOS' Somacula ending is non-canon because then DOS can't happen.

As for my final say on the Julius/ Dario debacle, first of all its canon, so we all need to get over it. Secondly, using a VK with little to zero power(rage) is like using the whip of alchemy. Leon wasn't weak, but he couldn't beat Walter. Death got rid of Walter in 5 seconds, and with the VK at full power, Leon was able to beat Death. The truth and the canon shows us that the VK's state makes a huge difference to the state of a Belmont's power. The VK was left in Castlevania to weaken the entire damn Castle, that's overly substantial power. Facts>emotion when it comes to rationalising narrative.

This brings me to the next point that compared to AOS, the plot in DOS well it sucks. Soma nearly becoming the Dark Lord is a fair plot point, but a lot of the story is reaching; Julius<Dario, The Castle bring a carbon copy of Castlevania (despite people pointing out it may be LOI's Castle), Dmitri and the whole Menace scenario, the narrative was not as good as AOS. They wanted to make another Sorrow title, and however the plot unfolded it would have probably been weaker than AOS imho.

Yeah. Let's just end this Julius debate. This took this AoS vs DoS debate to something completely different.

(click to show/hide)

Also, I ran out of argument and this debate is quite repetitive when comes to an argument, so it's quite useless to talk about it over and over.

Now lets just talk about how s*itty the DoS plot is!

[Aceearly1993]

I like the two games equally. DoS has More sequence break warp glitch and soul exceed stuff that limited its replayability, but I never care since it was still fun to find out every bit of data-processing mess and glitched souls/weapons/equipment

[Crescent]

I really don't like Soma and his friends and all of this "japanese castlevania story", but I must say AOS hands down. Better atmosphere, better gameplay, better art, better music, etc.

I had a blast with AOS when I first played it but with DOS, a very different story. I find the anime style of DOS absolutely atrocious, and the villains were extremely weak.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Dawn's soundtrack is actually pretty good. It's definitely above average for Yamane's compositions. Granted, its weak points are VERY weak, and much more noticeable, but I think the soundtrack is a solid B grade in the scheme of Yamane's work. Aria's is better, imo, but I don't feel that we should trash EVERYTHING that Dawn of Sorrow did just because it's overall a weaker package. Dawn did a lot on the gameplay front REALLY WELL, and the soundtrack is a big part of that success.

That being said, Dawn has without a doubt the most forgettable villains in the series history, ones we only remember in an ironic fashion resulting from how forgettable they otherwise would have been.

Which is a shame, as Celia could have been a really awesome non-action big bad who could have gotten Soma to question his morality with words, and Dario and Dmitrii both have some very brief moments that hint at the quality writing we could have gotten from them. It suggests far deeper characters than we got, and I think that describes just about everything the game did wrong -- none of it is TERRIBLE by itself, but when it's so similar to such a stellar predecessor, the spots where they pulled their punches in development become that much more obvious and glaring.

[zangetsu468]

Dawn's soundtrack is actually pretty good. It's definitely above average for Yamane's compositions. Granted, its weak points are VERY weak, and much more noticeable, but I think the soundtrack is a solid B grade in the scheme of Yamane's work. Aria's is better, imo, but I don't feel that we should trash EVERYTHING that Dawn of Sorrow did just because it's overall a weaker package. Dawn did a lot on the gameplay front REALLY WELL, and the soundtrack is a big part of that success.

That being said, Dawn has without a doubt the most forgettable villains in the series history, ones we only remember in an ironic fashion resulting from how forgettable they otherwise would have been.

Which is a shame, as Celia could have been a really awesome non-action big bad who could have gotten Soma to question his morality with words, and Dario and Dmitrii both have some very brief moments that hint at the quality writing we could have gotten from them. It suggests far deeper characters than we got, and I think that describes just about everything the game did wrong -- none of it is TERRIBLE by itself, but when it's so similar to such a stellar predecessor, the spots where they pulled their punches in development become that much more obvious and glaring.

I actually do believe Celia was a good character as an antagonist and I liked her design, as opposed to Dario and Dmitri (both terrible designs). The fact Soma never got to fight her was an interesting twist, it was unexpected and left her abilities shrouded in mystery. She wasn't as good a character as Graham, but still decent.

[suomynona]

I actually do believe Celia was a good character as an antagonist and I liked her design, as opposed to Dario and Dmitri (both terrible designs). The fact Soma never got to fight her was an interesting twist, it was unexpected and left her abilities shrouded in mystery. She wasn't as good a character as Graham, but still decent.

True. It would be cool if Soma fought Celia in the throne room instead of fighting Dario second time, like Graham. But then they have to change stuff around (the [spoiler alert] at the garden or how they will alter Aguni battle to fit Celia, or how Menace will come around). Still would be an interesting alternation.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

While Menace was an interesting concept, his design and boss fight were just so...  bland. The boss fight against him in Harmony of Despair was pretty fun though.

But as he ended up excecuted in Dawn, I think he could have been cut entirely. If ever there had been a moment for Soma to confront Dracula in SOME FORM, that was it and the opportunity went utterly wasted. I wished Soma had faced a Dracula Wraith like Juste did -- it would have served as a call-back and a physical reminder to Soma of what he is in constant danger of becoming. The "Dawn Wraith" could have been able to use all (or simply most, for balance reasons) of the abilities that Soma could collect to really hammer home that point. And for Soma (who has only ever heard about Dracula and never seen any of his handiwork firsthand because he's just too young for that) to face something approaching what Dracula was in his heyday that also wears the shape and face of Dracula and then realize that he is at all times just one or two bad steps removed from that would have probably been downright terrifying. Like, he already would have known the threat a Dark Lord presented, but after that, he wouldn't just know. He'd understand as well, and it would have been a great way to segue into a third Sorrow game in which Dracula and Soma's natures finally came into "true conflict".

Having written that... wow. Menace really deprived us of an awesome potential third game storyline just by existing as the final boss.

[zangetsu468]

@superc4 The thing they should've included was a Celia battle in the non canon ending and that would've made me happy (like fighting the sisters in PoR instead of saving them)

@TBA I disagree, as much as Menace wasn't the absolute best boss we've seen, Soma is Dracula, so that doesn't work. This was made blatantly clear. He also defeated "The Chaos Creature" (before everyone starts reminding one another that he didn't defeat Chaos itself) severing the link between Chaos and himself (Dracula), which is the closest we were going to get to what you're describing.

The way in which they could've bullshit-ingly spun a mirror match with Soma, in my mind is by fenagling the mirror component of the story (like they did with Dario and Paranoia). However, the Julius ending already has a Soma battle, so meh.

All in all I didn't love the design of the menace, but thought it was cool that it was more like fighting a Titan. It reminded me of the Kid Icarus GBC's final boss. 

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Soma isn't strictly Dracula though. He's the potential Dark Lord and he is a reincarnation of Dracula, but the games make great pains to call out his similarities to pre-desperation Mathias rather than post-Transformation Dracula. This doesn't make him "Dracula", it makes him (potentially) next in line for the role Dracula operated in. If he must be one or the other, Soma is Mathias returned, not Dracula returned.

But we also see he's a very different person; this is what sets him apart from Graham, Dario, and Dmitri. Those three operated under the (somewhat sketchy) logic of "I was born the day Dracula died, therefore I must/am destined to become the Dark Lord" , very much enslaved by their supposed origins. Soma exists as a foil to that. He really is no-kidding destined to that role (as much as anyone can possibly be, at least), yet his rejection of that destiny is what keeps him from assuming it.

Soma isn't Dracula at all; he's lived none of Dracula's life (frankly, from what we can see, his life isn't even slightly similar), shares none of his memories, has none of Dracula's personality, and rejects all calls to be what Dracula used to be. Ultimately, that last bit is all that stands between him and an evil life. But even if he WERE to assume that role, Soma wouldn't magically become "The Dark Lord, Dracula". He'd be "The Dark Lord, Soma Cruz". He's very much his own person, and in many ways, this is entirely what his story revolves around.

So I say all of that to reiterate that him confronting Dracula in some form would have been more appropriate from a storytelling standpoint than Generic-Looking Giant Corpse Monster. It also would have been a more interesting boss fight. In its own way, Menace attempts to accomplish that same warning-end about losing control of one's self/powers, but fails to tell it as well as a direct confrontation between Soma and the very image of his Evil Destiny would have.

In my opinion.

[zangetsu468]

Soma isn't strictly Dracula though. He's the potential Dark Lord and he is a reincarnation of Dracula, but the games make great pains to call out his similarities to pre-desperation Mathias rather than post-Transformation Dracula. This doesn't make him "Dracula", it makes him (potentially) next in line for the role Dracula operated in. If he must be one or the other, Soma is Mathias returned, not Dracula returned.

Graham Jones: So we meet again! I'm glad to see you're unscathed.
Soma Cruz: Good to see you, too. Uh... I've got something I want to ask you.
Graham Jones: Sure, go ahead.
Soma Cruz: Someone told me that YOU are to inherit Dracula's powers...
Graham Jones: I take it that lady from the church told you that, didn't she?
Soma Cruz: It's not true, is it?
Graham Jones: The term 'inherit' is incorrect.
Soma Cruz: It's true then!
Graham Jones: I was born on the very day that Dracula was destroyed... So, in short, that means that I AM Dracula!

Soma Cruz: And the person who destroyed Dracula in 1999 was...
Julius Belmont: Yes. It was me... but there were others who assisted me...
Soma Cruz: So, if Dracula is revived again, just as it is written in the prophecy...
Julius Belmont: Then I must destroy him! It is my destiny.
Soma Cruz: You haven't met a man named Graham yet, have you?
Julius Belmont: Graham? Oh, you mean that missionary, right? I met him a little while ago. But when he saw my face, he turned and ran.
Soma Cruz: He told me that he was Dracula.
Julius Belmont: I did sense Dracula's powers at work within him... but it's difficult to believe that he's Dracula... rather... I think... No, forget it. It is nothing more than a hunch.
Soma Cruz: Huh?
Julius Belmont: Assuming that he is Dracula, I won't be able to kill him yet.

Normal Ending

Soma Cruz: And the castle... is the castle still in the eclipse?
Genya Arikado: Yes. It awaits the coming of its new master. Someday, someone will assume the form of Dracula again.


Graham Jones: I can't believe it... How did YOU come to possess those powers?
Soma Cruz: What do you mean by "those powers"?
Graham Jones: I'm Dracula. And you're not the one!

Graham Jones: Nooo! this cannot be!!! Does this mean that I'm not Dracula?!

Soma Cruz: Finally... I clearly understand... everything. I am...Dracula.

Genya Arikado: This castle is a product of Dracula's magic. It's a spiritual world. My point is this... a stream of chaos exists within this castle as well. There is a place where only you, Dracula, can go. That's where the chaos is!

Julius Belmont: So you were the one. I didn't want to believe it was true...
Soma Cruz: It's true. I am Dracula. But I'm not what you think I am!
Julius Belmont: I must destroy Dracula at any cost. That is my destiny.

Mina Hakuba: Everyone remaining in the castle combined their powers to contact you.
Soma Cruz: Does that mean they all know... that I'm Dracula?
Mina Hakuba: Yes... Arikado told us everything...

Good Ending

Yoko Belnades: Hello, Soma. Congratulations. I've got another job that I must attend to, so I have to go now. When I heard that YOU were Dracula, I was shocked.

In short you certainly talk some shit, I suppose that's better than eating it.

So I say all of that to reiterate that him confronting Dracula in some form would have been more appropriate

No. Soma is Dracula as evidenced by the script.

In my opinion.

Your opinion is he's not Dracula, so it doesn't work.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

I'm gonna summon PlotTwist for this as he can explain it far more eloquently than I.

[theplottwist]

Zangetsu that's too literal even for me, man.

Aperture didn't deny Soma is Dracula, he's talking of something else:

Soma isn't strictly Dracula though. He's the potential Dark Lord and he is a reincarnation of Dracula, but the games make great pains to call out his similarities to pre-desperation Mathias rather than post-Transformation Dracula. This doesn't make him "Dracula", it makes him (potentially) next in line for the role Dracula operated in. If he must be one or the other, Soma is Mathias returned, not Dracula returned.

He's talking conceptually, not literally.

Soma is Dracula, that's undeniable. But he's only "Dracula" because that what's the evil package was called/known by when he died. If Dracula were called "Nosegoob the Happy Clown", Soma would be Nosegoob the Happy Clown reincarnated, despite the fact that he'd not be an actual clown or be as unfunny like Nosegoob was. What Aperture is drawing a parallel with is [Dracula the Demon King], or as he calls it, post-transformation Dracula.

We know that Dracula, at this stage, is not a single entity. So, although Soma is the reincarnation of Dracula's soul, Soma is not the reincarnation of Dracula [the complete entity], and therefore not the same exact entity that was defeated in 1999. Soma really is someone of his own, which is outright explained by Julius after his boss battle, when he quite clearly says he feels "Soma" inside well... Soma:

JULIUS: ... When I fought you, I felt the evil spirit within you. But there's  more... I also sensed Soma's spirit. And that's more then enough to stop me.

After the battle with Graham, the dark lord's evil spirit, and Soma's own spirit are struggling for the control of Soma's body.

Soma has two of the most important parts (Dominance, the soul of Mathias/Dracula), but he lacks the Demon King's will (the evil spirit) which was born from Dracula and the chaos of mankind. This evil spirit and Soma's soul are as much Dracula as each other--incomplete halves. And as we see by the bad ending in Aria and scripts, Soma does become THE Dracula if the evil will overtakes him. One of the lines you posted, even, has the key to this explanation:

Soma Cruz: It's true. I am Dracula. But I'm not what you think I am!

What does he mean here, then? Is he Dracula or is he not? Easy: He is "Dracula" the individual, but not "Dracula" the entity.

In short: While its correct to say Soma is Dracula reincarnated, it's only so because the owner of the soul Soma has now was called "Dracula". It's a matter of semantics.

This whole confusion is due to how Castlevania understands "spirit". Someone's soul is one thing, but their spirit is the person itself, their conscience and their own will. The soul is the engine, the body is the car, the spirit is the driver. The body is irrelevant (as the series has shown, Dracula can pretty much overtake people's minds and bodies if the conditions are right), but Dracula THE Dracula needs the engine and the spirit to be whole. If Dracula is to be complete, the evil spirit must kick Soma's from the car and take the wheel.

[zangetsu468]

I'm gonna summon PlotTwist for this as he can explain it far more eloquently than I.

Lovely, didn't know we had the "phone a friend" option.

@Plottwist It's unfortunate you believe it's too literal, I know Soma =/= The Dracula that lived from prior to 1094 - 1999, nor the "entity" Dracula in the way you have explained and that's not what I was saying. I'm well aware the title of being "Dracula" is a matter of semantics, just as Graham believed he was Dracula.

I was making a point that by the same token that Bloody Aperture is saying "He's not Dracula(definition not withstanding)"
he's also saying that Soma is "Mathias returned" etc, which is also not relevant to anything being discussed. Is he? YES/ NO - It doesn't matter, it's not relevant to the discussion. The discussion was about Soma had become "Dracula" i.e. The Dark Lord, etc.

So I say all of that to reiterate that him confronting Dracula in some form would have been more appropriate from a storytelling standpoint than Generic-Looking Giant Corpse Monster. It also would have been a more interesting boss fight. In its own way, Menace attempts to accomplish that same warning-end about losing control of one's self/powers, but fails to tell it as well as a direct confrontation between Soma and the very image of his Evil Destiny would have.

Soma already had this battle with "Chaos", which prevented him from becoming "Dracula". it's exactly why he had to stop the flow of Chaos. A "Dracula" entity is not going to take physical manifestation in this context and/ or set of events, because the entire point is to pass the torch to the next Dark Lord.

Granted as I stated, they could spin the narrative in another direction, but they exhausted that option already in AoS.

This is one of the reasons I prefer AoS over DoS. As much as I like DoS, AoS was the first Castlevania to do a lot of things exceptionally with both the narrative and character development. 

[X]

'spirit' and 'Soul' are the same thing. Just different names to describe the same non-corporal entity (Though 'spirit' can be used to describe other things like energy). Soma is Dracula, no question there. But reincarnated into a new life. There is no evil entity separate from Soma's soul/spirit. There is the chaotic influence that will push Soma to darkness as he was before being killed permanently, but it is in no way a separate spirit. Soma is complete. He just doesn't have the influential driving force directing him to do evil things because, as mentioned before, he is living a new life. Whatever chaotic energies he had as Dracula were scrubbed out of him prior to him reincarnating as Soma. God gave him a fresh start so to speak. This is how I understand the Soma/Dracula situation. At least in my own head.

[zangetsu468]

'spirit' and 'Soul' are the same thing. Just different names to describe the same non-corporal entity (Though 'spirit' can be used to describe other things like energy). Soma is Dracula, no question there. But reincarnated into a new life. There is no evil entity separate from Soma's soul/spirit. There is the chaotic influence that will push Soma to darkness as he was before being killed permanently, but it is in no way a separate spirit. Soma is complete. He just doesn't have the influential driving force directing him to do evil things because, as mentioned before, he is living a new life.

That in a snapshot is how I've seen it, and more succinct than I could've been in describing it.
It's why Soma goes to sever the flow of Chaos, and why he's not literally fighting an entity in the form of Dracula.