Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Dremn on January 22, 2018, 02:18:48 PM
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TLDR; Dave Cox was very upset with IGN's average score of LoS1 and that resulted in a weird blacklisting/grudge between him and IGN.
I'm not a very big IGN fan but I found this interesting.
https://twitter.com/notaxation/status/955491510346121216 (https://twitter.com/notaxation/status/955491510346121216)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ouYp6i2kNU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ouYp6i2kNU)
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lol... that's actually pretty funny & sad
altho I don't blame MercurySteam, they are actually quite talented. They were just contracted to do a job, nothing more nothing less. Except for Enric Alvarez (the head of MS), he had a wacky vision for LoS2 that resulted in a shit ending
Fun Fact: Dave Cox has also blocked Nagumo on Twitter, too. Becuz I think she once asked him "Why the hell did you guys make Alucard & Trevor the same person?" or somethin like that ;D
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Fun Fact: Dave Cox has also blocked Nagumo on Twitter, too. Becuz I think she once asked him "Why the hell did you guys make Alucard & Trevor the same person?" or somethin like that ;D
That's very poor behavior on Cox's part. You don't blacklist someone for asking a question. He could have simply given a response to explain why, but instead took the low road.
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Wooo Konami being insane and paranoid and petty and alienating the people who make them money.
Never heard that one before.
also: lol Cox can't accept that he made a dumb character backstory decision in a bad DS game.
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That's very poor behavior on Cox's part. You don't blacklist someone for asking a question. He could have simply given a response to explain why, but instead took the low road.
I thought it was for saying "Liar liar pants on fire" when Cox claimed Trevor wasn't Alucard. ;D
Anyway, I'm pretty sure he did it on grounds of "dropping a spoiler" or something like that. Which is, well, flimsy.
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Cementing once again that Cox is indeed a giant, pretentious douchebag. I get the feeling one glare from Sakamoto shut him up during Samus Returns' development. Seriously, blacklisting is never an acceptable practice.
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This story gave me flashbacks to the LoS era because of how representative it is of Cox's behavior as producer: demanding nothing but absolute praise for his reboot while slamming previous entries in the series and their fans. I'm not sure this was a calculated marketing strategy or if he really had such a skewed perception of his own work.
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This story gave me flashbacks to the LoS era because of how representative it is of Cox's behavior as producer: demanding nothing but absolute praise for his reboot while slamming previous entries in the series and their fans. I'm not sure this was a calculated marketing strategy or if he really had suck a skewed perception of his own work.
I watched one interview with Cox which was about MoF and it sounded like he knew nothing about Castlevania. Judging by his games the proof was in the pudding.
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The irony is, he DOES know things about Castlevania. His name is listed in the SotN credits, so even if he had minimal involvement throughout the years he shoulda had the same level of knowledge/experience as Igarashi. The difference between them is, he just wasn’t passionate about the series & his games reflect that
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Lords of Shadow was just baffling. Its interesting how both Capcom and Konami tried to outsource a beloved franchise to a foreign company at around the same time, and then trashed the fans and critics for the poor reception of their games. We usually think of Japanese companies as being conservative and respectful...
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The irony is, he DOES know things about Castlevania. His name is listed in the SotN credits, so even if he had minimal involvement throughout the years he shoulda had the same level of knowledge/experience as Igarashi. The difference between them is, he just wasn’t passionate about the series & his games reflect that
He was only credited as "product manager", though. A quick Google search gave the following description: "Helping create and implement marketing campaigns to maximise the sales of games." Which perfectly fits how he always came across as to me: somebody who's job it is to sell a product. This is also IGA's job but he was always heavily involved with on the production side, and from interviews you could tell he was very knowledgeable and passionate about the series.
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I try not to be too harsh on Cox, but Lord, that is remarkably unprofessional behavior.
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Lords of Shadow was just baffling. Its interesting how both Capcom and Konami tried to outsource a beloved franchise to a foreign company at around the same time, and then trashed the fans and critics for the poor reception of their games. We usually think of Japanese companies as being conservative and respectful...
That was a weird time in gaming. Both were made during times when Japanese companies were (unfairly) getting slammed left and right constantly while Western companies could do no wrong (in spite of constant studio closures). It was like being back in the Reagan era where Japanaphobia ran rampant and thus anything indicative of Japan was looked down upon. The two games were run as essentially smear campaigns, painting critics as straw men and even saying how the old entries were never good in the first place. It's a weird tactic to take when marketing a title and it backfired.
I would say whatever the hell Ninja Theory was trying to with DMC was the weirder of the two, because the DMC series was still going strong with Dante being a gaming icon and DMC 4 being a critical and commercial success. The thing that was really head tilting was not only how the Tamtam (the director) was constantly getting into feuds on Twitter, but that the press actively bent over backwards to deflect criticism from NT. What. The. Hell? That was just odd and it made the resulting fallout of the game nosediving look embarrassing for the press.
As for LoS, Cox clearly had no clue what he was doing. His interviews were always bringing up the pre-SOTN entries, but he clearly didn't realize those entries were platformers, not hack and slash. The press gobbled up LoS, but it didn't last because by the time LoS 2 was rolling out the MetroidVania genre had cemented itself as a go-to template for indie studios, meaning that MercurySteam now had to deal with some serious identity crisis and the fact that their approach was obsolete. And we all know how that went down. Critical and commercial flop to be left in the dustbin of history and Cox is now a laughingstock.
At the end of the day, those incidents seem really uncomfortable now. They've both been used as industry punching bags while Dante continues to endure as a cultural icon and Iga had one of the biggest gaming Kickstarters in history while the Netflix series drew upon the classic Castlevania lore and aesthetic, not whatever the hell LoS was trying to do. The smears against Japanese devs from back then also look really uncomfortable now, especially considering how last year brought a MONSTER selection of Japanese titles like Nioh, Yakuza 0/Kiwami, Persona 5, Nier: Automata, Super Mario Odyssey, and The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild. Goes to show that chasing after trends is a fool's errand
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You had me until you implied Breath of the Wild is a good thing.
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You had me until you implied Breath of the Wild is a good thing.
How was it not a good thing? It was different from previous entries, but to me it captured that same sense of exploration and wonder that OoT did, but went about it in an entirely different way. Breath of the Wild is a good example of how to reinvent a franchise while keeping its spirit intact. Compare that to Lords of Shadow, which ditched the entire aesthetic of its franchise.
Speaking of the Netflix series, I really hope we can get another Castlevania reboot drawing from the TV show. Its been remarkably successful, and has drawn a number of new people to the franchise.
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Even disregarding quality of the title, I was talking about public perception. My own opinion is one thing, but that's separate from public consensus (which is that BotW deserved all the GOTY awards). The point is, the Japanophobic period that the gaming industry went through last generation now looks really stupid and really uncomfortable. I can't tell you how many sites were dripping with xenophobia back in those days. And it turns out the Japanese devs had the last laugh
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Even disregarding quality of the title, I was talking about public perception. My own opinion is one thing, but that's separate from public consensus (which is that BotW deserved all the GOTY awards). The point is, the Japanophobic period that the gaming industry went through last generation now looks really stupid and really uncomfortable. I can't tell you how many sites were dripping with xenophobia back in those days. And it turns out the Japanese devs had the last laugh
That's cause anyone who even remotely entertains any level of arrogance about someone or something is going to take the fall. And fall very hard.
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Is this 2013?
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the LoS games were trash anyways. Konami made a huge mistake pushing IGA aside for western developer to take over Castlevania, whom obviously simply saw it as a money making opportunity. Mercurysteam are just as bad as Ninja Theory, who ruined DmC and **** stained and scarred the DMC series to this day (capcom was also at fault approving DmC's direction)
though on the plus side, Konami's bad decision has helped influence IGA's eventual departure and the creation of Bloodstained Ritual of the Night. ;D
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DMC had a pretty weird aesthetic, and way of re-imagining the series. But in terms of gameplay it was 100% Devil May Cry and actually a really great evolution of what DMC3 was able to pull off. It was much better than DMC4 which just reveled too hard in anime tropes, and didn't take the gameplay forward at all, not to mention the extra weapons were all ass. Seriously, say what you will about the look of the game, but it is no LoS. At least the gameplay felt the way it was supposed to. I'd actually call it the most satisfying beat em up style gameplay of the last gaming generation. I've been a huge DMC fan since the series started btw, it was my first ps2 game. I really wish action gaming had taken more notes from DMC3 than GoW... basically every action game that comes out now is a "like GoW but..." blegh.
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the LoS games were trash anyways.
(https://assets.rbl.ms/8110536/980x.jpg)
wrong
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DMC had a pretty weird aesthetic, and way of re-imagining the series. But in terms of gameplay it was 100% Devil May Cry and actually a really great evolution of what DMC3 was able to pull off. It was much better than DMC4 which just reveled too hard in anime tropes, and didn't take the gameplay forward at all, not to mention the extra weapons were all ass. Seriously, say what you will about the look of the game, but it is no LoS. At least the gameplay felt the way it was supposed to. I'd actually call it the most satisfying beat em up style gameplay of the last gaming generation. I've been a huge DMC fan since the series started btw, it was my first ps2 game. I really wish action gaming had taken more notes from DMC3 than GoW... basically every action game that comes out now is a "like GoW but..." blegh.
I don't agree that DMC4 had uninspired gameplay.
Which extra weapons specifically were ass? Assuming you're referring to Dante's playthrough, Gilgamesh and Pandora especially on specific bosses can mean victory in a matter of seconds rather than minutes.
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I don't agree that DMC4 had uninspired gameplay.
Which extra weapons specifically were ass? Assuming you're referring to Dante's playthrough, Gilgamesh and Pandora especially on specific bosses can mean victory in a matter of seconds rather than minutes.
I loved doing a Lucifer-Pandora combo because that was funny to hell to watch enemies die in seconds clearly confused over what I did to them. Don't even get me started on what Vergil, Lady, and Trish can do in the Special Edition because that stuff went bonkers. NT just could not replicate those same levels of depth and elegance. Like I've said elsewhere, there's really nothing more to say about it because CAPCOM has clearly buried that game and everything to do with it.
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I loved doing a Lucifer-Pandora combo because that was funny to hell to watch enemies die in seconds clearly confused over what I did to them. Don't even get me started on what Vergil, Lady, and Trish can do in the Special Edition because that stuff went bonkers. NT just could not replicate those same levels of depth and elegance. Like I've said elsewhere, there's really nothing more to say about it because CAPCOM has clearly buried that game and everything to do with it.
Preach.
Back when I played DMC4 Vanilla, I played on the hardest setting available on default. Pandora on The Savior, followed by DT Gilgamesh during stun literally ends that fight in 2-3 minutes and delivers and S rank. Gilgamesh in particular is op against most bosses, particularly with DT activated.
I started playing SE with Vergil on Legendary Mode, that mode is insane and so are Vergil's abilities.
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(https://assets.rbl.ms/8110536/980x.jpg)
wrong
Finally it is time to remove our masks
puts on a mask
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but it wasn't THE mask
sad!
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Finally it is time to remove our masks
puts on a mask
That part had me like "What. Like, seriously, what!?".
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Do I hear a crying baby. Man cox just grin and brear it, I've seen tons of great games get smashed Like the 3D Cv Games and do you see IGA cry butt hurt, NOOOOO.
I feel that and don't get me wrong I really love the look and feel Of Los But he did come off as very up himself being very much like
"The king of CV has arrived toss all those other game in the bin ya don need em. THIS is the only CV game you'll ever need" What this? SoTN, that Litte game is nohting compred to my game trust me, it better then sex, you'll love it, Sorry who was the frist belmont to apper, thats easy Trevor DUH."
Thats really sums him up for me, and i find this news very sad and i feel his had let himself down even more. As this is just sour grapes.
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He was only credited as "product manager", though. A quick Google search gave the following description: "Helping create and implement marketing campaigns to maximise the sales of games." Which perfectly fits how he always came across as to me: somebody who's job it is to sell a product. This is also IGA's job but he was always heavily involved with on the production side, and from interviews you could tell he was very knowledgeable and passionate about the series.
Well, yeah, I mean, he DID say Masks have ALWAYS been an important aspect of the entire Castlevania series. ALWAYS! Remember when they are all featured as prominent items relevant to the series? I sure do....
That was a weird time in gaming. Both were made during times when Japanese companies were (unfairly) getting slammed left and right constantly while Western companies could do no wrong (in spite of constant studio closures). It was like being back in the Reagan era where Japanaphobia ran rampant and thus anything indicative of Japan was looked down upon. The two games were run as essentially smear campaigns, painting critics as straw men and even saying how the old entries were never good in the first place. It's a weird tactic to take when marketing a title and it backfired.
I would say whatever the hell Ninja Theory was trying to with DMC was the weirder of the two, because the DMC series was still going strong with Dante being a gaming icon and DMC 4 being a critical and commercial success. The thing that was really head tilting was not only how the Tamtam (the director) was constantly getting into feuds on Twitter, but that the press actively bent over backwards to deflect criticism from NT. What. The. Hell? That was just odd and it made the resulting fallout of the game nosediving look embarrassing for the press.
As for LoS, Cox clearly had no clue what he was doing. His interviews were always bringing up the pre-SOTN entries, but he clearly didn't realize those entries were platformers, not hack and slash. The press gobbled up LoS, but it didn't last because by the time LoS 2 was rolling out the MetroidVania genre had cemented itself as a go-to template for indie studios, meaning that MercurySteam now had to deal with some serious identity crisis and the fact that their approach was obsolete. And we all know how that went down. Critical and commercial flop to be left in the dustbin of history and Cox is now a laughingstock.
At the end of the day, those incidents seem really uncomfortable now. They've both been used as industry punching bags while Dante continues to endure as a cultural icon and Iga had one of the biggest gaming Kickstarters in history while the Netflix series drew upon the classic Castlevania lore and aesthetic, not whatever the hell LoS was trying to do. The smears against Japanese devs from back then also look really uncomfortable now, especially considering how last year brought a MONSTER selection of Japanese titles like Nioh, Yakuza 0/Kiwami, Persona 5, Nier: Automata, Super Mario Odyssey, and The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild. Goes to show that chasing after trends is a fool's errand
It was bullshit and I even called that sorta BS out back then. Everybody was all, like, "West be the BEST!!!" and ragging on how effeminate all Japanese characters were. Remember that, how that was a huge negative thing? Man, I'm glad those days are over. Fuck that period!
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I’d like to hear Rugal’s opinion on this...
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^but we already know what it is.
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And I can picture it now too ;D
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It was bullshit and I even called that sorta BS out back then. Everybody was all, like, "West be the BEST!!!" and ragging on how effeminate all Japanese characters were. Remember that, how that was a huge negative thing? Man, I'm glad those days are over. Fuck that period!
Yeah, and it didn't help when you had guys like Inafune or even Kojima going on about the greatness of Western devs which of course the Japanophobes grabbed onto in order to validate their racist opinions. Karmic now that it's the West that seems to be having trouble.
Something kind of funny I noticed is how years ending in 7 seem to be turning points in the games industry. In 1997 we got FFVII and Symphony of the Night, two game that earned their place in gaming history, what with FFVII making RPGs the blockbusters of a generation and ushered an unprecedented golden age for Squaresoft while SOTN completely changed Castlevania and has inspired legions of imitators. Then 2007 is when we had a shift from Japanese dominance to Western what with titles like Bioshock and Mass Effect bringing PC devs to consoles and Nintendo having the Wii sell like mad. And now we have 2017 wherein there tons of Western dev stumbles but then Japanese studios picked up the slack with releasing titles that were not only far better than their Western counterparts, but also uniquely Japanese. And then of course you have the Switch going on a rampage to hot sales and critical acclaim (coincidence: one year anniversary).