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Offline theplottwist

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My Take On "What is a man?"
« on: April 09, 2018, 09:49:19 PM »
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A opinion article on "nuance", and the reason why I find the initial English dialogue of SotN less impactful than the original, Japanese one. Before reading, keep in mind that this loaded with opinion. Although I have gathered evidence, I am not trying to prove that someone is wrong or that my taste is superior to everyone else's, but only to form an analysis of how one dialogue compares with the other on my personal perspective.



The dialogue between Richter and Dracula in SotN is well known. "What is man?" etc etc. Dracula wants to point out that religion is as pernicious to man as he is, and that Richter is being an hypocrite by pointing out that Dracula is a problem when he is supposed to know the truth within himself. The topic of the conversation is "Hypocrisy." They keep pointing the hypocrisy on each other until a fight ensues. Remember the dialogue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2IhsPxJPdk

However, in the (successful) attempt at creating a memorable dialogue, the localization lost something of profound importance in the original scene: The content of the dialogue, and a very important characterization detail, which I will explain in the end. Before I start, watch a translated version of the Japanese dialogue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Oma-VUECmc

In the Japanese version, the dialogue is not about "hypocrisy", but about the "nature of justice". What or who defines what "justice" is? Dracula argues that the one who has "power" is the one who makes something "right", and the powerful are those who pass judgment. He uses religion/creed to demonstrate how humankind uses subterfuge to impose its own desires on others, which would be just another way of expressing power. Richter replies that it is not "mere power" that commands humanity, but mutual respect and generosity, and that what Dracula thinks is just a byproduct of his selfishness.

The dialogue in English, although memorable, has little depth (to the point of sounding nonsensical at times) and slightly changes the characterization of both characters. For example:

-In English, Richter accuses Dracula of enslaving the souls of men, and ties the point by saying that humanity does not need "saviors" like him. There is no elaboration of how mankind stands up to Dracula's accusations of "the same can be said about all religions." Richter simply says that he's talking nonsense "because his soul is empty" and that's it.

-In Japanese, however, Richter emphasizes moral values as what truly guide humanity, as a refutation of what Dracula says about religion to be just another method of exerting power. For Richter, Dracula is not wrong ONLY because he acts selfishly, but also because he does not understand the motives of mankind, something he has to verbally explain to refute Dracula. This ties back to Richter's opening line: "This world was not meant for the likes of you!". Dracula is a demon and lost his humanity. It's not his right to dictate what is justice or not to humans, because the world is for humanity, something he ceased to be and does not understand.

-In English, Dracula dismisses everything that Richter said as hypocrisy when he responds with "What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets." This quote (coming from "Antimémoires" by André Malraux) does not mean that man is insignificant, but that man "is what he hides, not what he claims to be." What Dracula is saying here is that Richter is a liar, a hypocrite, and implied that he knows what Richter thinks better than Richter himself. In the English version, Dracula has his head made up already, and damn what Richter thinks, because Richter is lying to him and to himself.

-In Japanese, despite the sarcasm, Dracula opens the chance for Richter's argument to be right, precisely because Richter not only immediately retorts Dracula, but does so with an actual argument. He does not just say "Dracula, just shut up" but offers REASONS to justify what he thinks, and where Dracula's argument is wrong, what Dracula's equation is not accounting for. And then, unlike the English version, where Dracula begins the battle because he's tired of debating and thinks he's right ("Enough talk!"), here he wants to start fighting because only then can a point of view prevail. That is, the struggle itself is an extension of the debate.

SotN's Japanese dialogue is a redux version of the dialogue at the end of Rondo of Blood. There it is possible to verify more clearly that Dracula is genuinely making room for doubt, and since it happens only after the combat itself, the dialogue ends with a clearer "we will meet again, just remember that I will return as long as greedy humans exist", indicating that "the debate continues as long as I return, buddy." It's not Dracula throwing a "OF COURSE I'M RIGHT! I'M DYING, BUT I'M STILL RIGHT!" tantrum, but rather a more skeptical Dracula "You have a argument, and I have another -- the one who stands at the end is the one who will be correct. For today we are finished, but I come back to continue."

What I think is that the two are much better debaters in Japanese than in English: P

Yet, even after all of this, we kind of already have the tools to know who's right. It is here that comes the detail about nuances that was completely lost in the English localization of SotN, since the content of the conversation being "hypocrisy" does not leave much room for what I will talk about next, and that is meant for the player to pick on.

Do you remember that I said above that the Japanese dialogue is about the "nature of justice"? Well, we call an individual who applies justice a "Judge". Although there are corrupt judges, the essential picture we have of this entity is that it is the only one adequately equipped to understand and apply justice. This is who, in the end, not only has deep knowledge of the rules and must hear all sides of the case, but is the one that can even bend the rules to achieve a fair verdict in a case that they preside.

"Richter" is a German name, and means "Judge." Dracula is the one who arises to push humanity to damnation -- its accuser, its prosecutor. Isn't it much more appropriate that the subject of a debate between a character called "Judge" and another with the title "Accuser" be "Justice" instead of "Hypocrisy"? Perhaps this symbolism has escaped the localization, or perhaps they have considered the original content too philosophical. Or even still, they could've believed that the original gave Dracula too much of leeway to be right, and instead opted for a more stereotypical, high-and-mighty depiction of Dracula that we are used to in the West.

Whatever the reason, my opinion is that the English localization of this dialogue is memorable, but too shallow. It can be boiled down to one calling the other an hypocrite with no convincing basis until one of them decides that they heard too much and goes for the neck of the opponent. I think Dracula lost quite a bit of development on the english version, despite being written as a well-educated villain.



And that's it! I just felt like sharing this over here since I wrote that how-many-months-ago on another place and started some discussion (about many things, from the value of a literal localization to the characters' motivations themselves). I imagined it would be a good place to post it and see if the same happens :)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 04:15:40 AM by theplottwist »
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Offline Shiroi Koumori

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Re: My Take On "What is a man?"
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2018, 05:12:00 AM »
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That's why I like the Japanese script more.
But English is for the LOLs.

However, we must always remember that localization then is not as good as localization now.

Offline Briraka

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Re: My Take On "What is a man?"
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2018, 07:34:45 AM »
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Good analysis, however it could be said that the ensuring fight between Richter and Dracula is still an extension of their debate in the localization. From a characterization standpoint, it could be reasonably assumed that neither party would be any good at a philosophical debate, with Richter having been brought up to become a monster slayer and would have no reason or time to study the art of debate. Then Dracula, having been fighting against humanity for the past several hundred years would have no need to practice diplomacy any more. So then the two throw around a bunch of ad hominem and whataboutisms at each other until this bickering of logical fallacies reaches it's conclusion: with violence.

While I agree that the original version's dialogue is more intellectually sound and thematically appropriate, I believe that the localization's script can be seen as a more realistic depiction given the characters personalities at play resulting in a tragedy of errors, even if it's considered hilarious by some.


never mind, this doesn't make any sense whatsoever. :P
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 08:04:04 AM by Briraka »

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: My Take On "What is a man?"
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2018, 08:31:27 AM »
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I think it's part localisation, part cultural and stereotypical of "Dracula" and part theatrical i.e. The English localisation is meant more for setting the tone rather than protagonists and antagonists reasoning their intentions and actions.
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                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
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                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline Guy Belmont

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Re: My Take On "What is a man?"
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2018, 10:47:22 AM »
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I've always loved the Japanese one, as it touch's on something that never many fans I've talk . (IE no here but outside)
Is Love, love is one of the driveing forces in CV, Sara loved leon, and the world so much that she became the vampire Killer. Loen loved her so much that he threw caution to the wind and barved the horrors of the castle, he loved sara so much that he freed her from her fate. Gandolfi was driven by love to go and face nightmares to free his daughter.  Richter Belmont wanted to save Annette, again facing nightmares other men would run from. Soma LOved mina and the world so much that fought his own dark fate.

And how can we forget Alucard, eveyhting he has done is for the love of his mother, went up against his own father. Exiled  himself to eternal sleep. Then when it turned out to be not so eternal, he dedicated his life to keeping the world safe.

The same with the count, Love drove him to do what  he did.

But there is one that many miss out, Its Simon from HC, he whent to save Serena.

Same with Maria Renard, Juste Belmont, Nathan Graves. I mean the list is almost endless i could rattle off tons of names and resons but we all know them.

Buts it been Love thats been the driving force of just about everyhting, and its sad that the eng dialogue, missed this. even the Psp really missed this out.

But thats just my view, so take what you will.














« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 10:53:10 AM by Guy Belmont »
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Offline gallandryal

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Re: My Take On "What is a man?"
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2018, 04:06:32 PM »
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Good analysis, however it could be said that the ensuring fight between Richter and Dracula is still an extension of their debate in the localization. From a characterization standpoint, it could be reasonably assumed that neither party would be any good at a philosophical debate, with Richter having been brought up to become a monster slayer and would have no reason or time to study the art of debate. Then Dracula, having been fighting against humanity for the past several hundred years would have no need to practice diplomacy any more. So then the two throw around a bunch of ad hominem and whataboutisms at each other until this bickering of logical fallacies reaches it's conclusion: with violence.

While I agree that the original version's dialogue is more intellectually sound and thematically appropriate, I believe that the localization's script can be seen as a more realistic depiction given the characters personalities at play resulting in a tragedy of errors, even if it's considered hilarious by some.



never mind, this doesn't make any sense whatsoever. :P

lol Maybe Richter is an intellectual who wrote books in his free time when he was not slaying monsters. He was like the Socrates of his village questioning random people about mysteries of life 

By the way, Dracula being a millenar being, had enough baggage to philosophical debate, but he had a nihilist or extreme view.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 04:11:22 PM by gallandryal »

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