Topic: A new approach needed for this series?

[beingthehero]

Thernz already pointed out that Bram Stoker's Dracula had a very loose connection to Vlad the Impaler. As in, they were both Romanian. That was about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler

I mean if you were going to have a historically accurate Vlad, Renonsgoods, you're not going to have Castlevania. You're going to have an Ottoman Wars simulator. The entire deal with Vlad and blood was just the myth that he soaked his bread in the blood of his impaled enemies to gloat at them. Besides the myth, Vlad was just an Orthodox Christian prince battling against Mehmed II's attempts to expand the Ottoman Empire deeper into Eastern Europe.

I mean that'd be cool, if this was the Total War series.

How do you gain access to immense, demonic power? Beyond living the bloody life of a warrior in medieval times, there wasn't anything really demonic about Vlad. He was, after all, a Christian. I highly doubt you get demonic power from establishing monasteries and improving agricultural output among the peasantry. Do you become 'evil' after you level up by killing so many Turks?

Or we can have Bram Stoker's hardcore, love-sick allegory for feeling guilty about sex.

And that's certainly not very gritty!

Anyways, to suggest that Castlevania needs to take itself seriously if it wants to be successful in 3D really doesn't make any sense. Look how successful grim, serious DMC2 was compared to the campy DMC1 or DMC3. Serious Dante in Serious Sequel nearly offed the franchise by the second game. People wanted the pizza-eating, "FLOCK OFF FEATHER-FACE" Dante, and DMC1 and 3 are regarded as some of the finest 3D action games today. The first one certainly rendered LoI hollow.

Castlevania really isn't God of War with its blood and admittedly unaware corny plot. Castlevania shouldn't have to imitate other 3D action games and desperately try to whore itself out to Rated M for Mature people. A successful series is built upon its own merits; namely how fun it is, not by how much gore it has or how seriously it takes itself.

If Castlevania is going to have a successful life in 3D, it needs to be fun. It needs to be addicting. It needs to be designed well. If Castlevania fulfills those criteria, then that will be a successful 3D game.

However, if Castlevania made another nod to Nosferatu (besides Count Olrox) by giving Dracula his repulsive characteristics rather than a romantic, gentlemanly count, then that'd be a great start to a more threatening Dracula. On the flip side, you could also wind up with naked blue Dracula from the comics.

[paulstanley]

I don't think a Nosferatu look fits Dracula very much. : (

Ecclesia had it right. Dracula is gentlemanly and endearing at first, but when he loses his cool, he shows his demonic side. Maybe if this happens sooner and his face also goes demonic (a la Chronicles), it would be even better.

[darkwzrd4]

Dracula needs to be arrogant but at the same time, well mannered.  In other words, a lot like how he was in OoE.  He was a gentleman and was actually toying with Shanoa.  He is a "noble" after all.  He should be calm yet evil.  And, if his opponent starts to get the upper hand, he should be like: "Well, your skilled, but you still far from capable at defeating me.  Allow me to show you what I am truly capable of."  At this point, he would start using stronger attacks.  Also, he should stop with the old teleport/fireball routine.  He needs to move around more without teleporting and possibly use a weapon like a sword.  Whether armed or not, he needs to move faster.

I mean of all the Dracula fights in the series, the second phase of the OoE battle was my favorite.  He walked around, grabbed you, and summoned both wolves and bats.  It the most challenging fight without him transforming.  Phase one of a Dracula battle should be like that and then he transforms in phase two.  This would make the Dracula battle more challenging and a lot more fun.

[crisis]

What the ultimate Dracula battle would be like, ideally....

Just like Dark Wizard said, the first form of OoE Dracula we fight, but with a mix of some of his attacks from PoR, like when he closes his cape then releases a ton of blasts in the air. You try to jump over him & he swings at you. After about 7 minutes of rigorous battle, he get serious & advances towards you, like in OoE, except his techniques are a lot more deadly (he can even use his "Soul Steal" technique). Summoning wolves, swarms of bats, ya know? If Belmont manages to survive this round, he then says "playtime is over" and absorbs an enormous amount of dark energy, transforming into a giant bat demon, but not too big (the room will still be present). I like the idea of Drac using an "instant kill," except something more difficult to avoid than his PoR "smash you with by batwings" maneuver. He will summon demons occasionally, just like he does in Symphony, and sometimes he will even kill them to drink their blood & replenish his health. Once Belmont overcomes this series of attacks, he transforms AGAIN, only this time the entire room changes like the Symphony vortex or the CotM dimension and Dracula shows his most demonic form yet, something the size of Menace except it'll look more like a Dragon.


This entire battle will take almost a half an hour to finish. 

[darkwzrd4]

What the ultimate Dracula battle would be like, ideally....

Just like Dark Wizard said, the first form of OoE Dracula we fight, but with a mix of some of his attacks from PoR, like when he closes his cape then releases a ton of blasts in the air. You try to jump over him & he swings at you. After about 7 minutes of rigorous battle, he get serious & advances towards you, like in OoE, except his techniques are a lot more deadly (he can even use his "Soul Steal" technique). Summoning wolves, swarms of bats, ya know? If Belmont manages to survive this round, he then says "playtime is over" and absorbs an enormous amount of dark energy, transforming into a giant bat demon, but not too big (the room will still be present). I like the idea of Drac using an "instant kill," except something more difficult to avoid than his PoR "smash you with by batwings" maneuver. He will summon demons occasionally, just like he does in Symphony, and sometimes he will even kill them to drink their blood & replenish his health. Once Belmont overcomes this series of attacks, he transforms AGAIN, only this time the entire room changes like the Symphony vortex or the CotM dimension and Dracula shows his most demonic form yet, something the size of Menace except it'll look more like a Dragon.


This entire battle will take almost a half an hour to finish. 

That would be EPIC and if the 1999 game is ever made, that is how the final battle should be.

[Inccubus]

IPerhaps it's time Konami consider handling Castlevania in the same way that Nintendo has handled the Legend of Zelda series in the past....each episode being it's own self-contained reimagining of the core legend. While there would still be a place for sequels and prequels, it would remove the burden on the dev team to try and make a story that fits into a pre-determined series of events.

Don't know if anyone mentioned this before, but... I've done a lot of research into the Legend of Zelda and each episode is most definitely not a reimagining. Miyamoto has been quoted as stating that there is a master timeline for the series. Thus meaning that each Legend of Zelda game does, in fact place, the burden on the dev team. However, don't think of it so much as to force the story to fit the pre-determined series of events, but rather the burden is simply not to contradict what has already been established in said timeline.

It would also remove the burden on the dev team to create a story that has to lend itself to future titles in order to be an accepted part of the franchise.

I don't think they worry about this, rather it is the next team that has to deal with what was established by the previous team and the original timeline document that was previously developed.

But at any rate, back on topic. The idea you present is an interesting one, but I think it would better fit a game based on Bram Stoker's novel than a Castlevania game. Having constant titles with no ties what-so-ever to the previous one makes it difficult to weave a coherent story in an action-adventure series that is inherently short in comparison to the average RPG or full-on adventure game like LoZ. But, you know, the early games in the series were not so unlike the LoZ approach with different generations of heroes tied only by their heritage and their foe. It's just that they didn't have much plot to do anything with back then. It was when all this plot started seeping in that anyone even cared about continuity and story development. And the developers found themselves with no idea what to do to tie in the old and the new. In the end a reboot was a good idea, but what we got was a completely different game with castlevania stuff shoehorned in. I really think they should have let Cox remake CV1 and be done with it... without any input from Hideo Kojima.

[Renonsgoods]

Thernz already pointed out that Bram Stoker's Dracula had a very loose connection to Vlad the Impaler. As in, they were both Romanian. That was about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler

I mean if you were going to have a historically accurate Vlad, Renonsgoods, you're not going to have Castlevania. You're going to have an Ottoman Wars simulator. The entire deal with Vlad and blood was just the myth that he soaked his bread in the blood of his impaled enemies to gloat at them. Besides the myth, Vlad was just an Orthodox Christian prince battling against Mehmed II's attempts to expand the Ottoman Empire deeper into Eastern Europe.

I don't believe I ever said I wanted CV's Drac to be the historical Drac.  What I said was that I'd like to see a Dracula that is a creative mixture of the historical Drac, Bram Stoker's Drac, and CV's Drac.  A creative blend.  I just don't want him to be some ancient guy from long ago that just happens to end up with the name Dracula.

How do you gain access to immense, demonic power? Beyond living the bloody life of a warrior in medieval times, there wasn't anything really demonic about Vlad. He was, after all, a Christian. I highly doubt you get demonic power from establishing monasteries and improving agricultural output among the peasantry. Do you become 'evil' after you level up by killing so many Turks?

Perhaps one could gain such dark powers by becoming such a destructive, obsessive tyrant that it gets the attention of demonic forces.  Imagine what the devil or his ilk could teach you if they thought you had potential. Sure sounds alot cooler than becoming an all powerful vampire cuz you snagged a magic jewel with some dead guy's soul stuck in it.  That'd work great......if this were Indiana Jones.

Anyways, to suggest that Castlevania needs to take itself seriously if it wants to be successful in 3D really doesn't make any sense. Look how successful grim, serious DMC2 was compared to the campy DMC1 or DMC3. Serious Dante in Serious Sequel nearly offed the franchise by the second game. People wanted the pizza-eating, "FLOCK OFF FEATHER-FACE" Dante, and DMC1 and 3 are regarded as some of the finest 3D action games today. The first one certainly rendered LoI hollow.

I'll agree with you on DMC, but I don't care to see the silly Jonathan Morris antics being portrayed in full 3D HD glory.  I don't mind the camp for the 2D games.  I just don't want it for the 3D ones.  This series is ripe for the making of a great, dark, gothic 3D action-platformer.  Making the hero a wise-cracking cartoon character that has to fight a digital Bela Lugosi just doesn't sound like a recipe for success to me.  A great 3d Castlevania should be equally capable of satisfying old fans and capturing new ones. 

Castlevania really isn't God of War with its blood and admittedly unaware corny plot. Castlevania shouldn't have to imitate other 3D action games and desperately try to whore itself out to Rated M for Mature people. A successful series is built upon its own merits; namely how fun it is, not by how much gore it has or how seriously it takes itself.

I whole heartedly agree that it doesn't need to imitate anyone else nor be M rated just for the sake of gaining audience.  But implying that it can't have blood, be dark, or do some things that other games have done before (but hopefully better) is equally unnecessary. Like you said, if the game is well done and fun to play...none of these elements will be to its demerit. 

If Castlevania is going to have a successful life in 3D, it needs to be fun. It needs to be addicting. It needs to be designed well. If Castlevania fulfills those criteria, then that will be a successful 3D game.

I fully agree.

However, if Castlevania made another nod to Nosferatu (besides Count Olrox) by giving Dracula his repulsive characteristics rather than a romantic, gentlemanly count, then that'd be a great start to a more threatening Dracula. On the flip side, you could also wind up with naked blue Dracula from the comics.

I think there's plenty of room for something that fullfills both your and my criteria for a good Dracula villain.  And I'm sure it can be done without having to resort to mutated space vampires.  If people can accept a Dracula that got his start as a moody fallen knight stealing a magic stone from a powerful vampire, I'm sure they find room to love a Dracula that is a sadistic, evil tyrant that then became an all powerful vampire via an alliance with demonic forces.  Besides, as we all know...Dracula has always had two faces...sometimes even three.   In the end, I just want a Dracula that commands respect and fear, and not just cuz he can be cordial in polite conversation.

[Renonsgoods]

Don't know if anyone mentioned this before, but... I've done a lot of research into the Legend of Zelda and each episode is most definitely not a reimagining. Miyamoto has been quoted as stating that there is a master timeline for the series.

I seem to remember an article for an interview with Miyamoto way back in the early 90's where he stated that each Zelda was meant to be its own distinct legend...not the sequel of the game that came before it.  It's for this reason that I believe the Zelda timeline is a more recently developed marketing ploy.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong....doesn't change the concept I'm after.

[X]

Or we can have Bram Stoker's hardcore, love-sick allegory for feeling guilty about sex.

This was the 1994 movie. Not Bram Stoker's novel. The whole love theme was nothing more then Hollywood spin-doctoring. The Dracula from the book is a lot more hardcore then he was on film and almost, if not exactly matches the real life Vlad III. While it's true that there is much propaganda surrounding Vlad, he was a butcher and a hero. A hero to his people and a butcher to his enemies and those who broke the laws of Romania. Here's an interesting fact I recently discovered. Romania had a lot of impoverished people so Vlad invited them all for a banquet feast. He then promptly locked them all in the dining hall and set it ablaze, killing all and thus ending poverty. Nice Vlad, real smooth 

-X

[crisis]

Perhaps one could gain such dark powers by becoming such a destructive, obsessive tyrant that it gets the attention of demonic forces.  Imagine what the devil or his ilk could teach you if they thought you had potential.  Sure sounds alot cooler than becoming an all powerful vampire cuz you snagged a magic jewel with some dead guy's soul stuck in it.  That'd work great......if this were Indiana Jones.

So you prefer "i'm an evil bastard because i am, now i am Dracula thanks to Satan" as opposed to "i followed God's will but felt betrayed, now i will become Dracula and be a evil bastard"

To each his own, I guess.

[Inccubus]

I seem to remember an article for an interview with Miyamoto way back in the early 90's where he stated that each Zelda was meant to be its own distinct legend...not the sequel of the game that came before it.  It's for this reason that I believe the Zelda timeline is a more recently developed marketing ploy.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong....doesn't change the concept I'm after.

I remember that from when I was doing my research too. He had a later interview where he contradicts/retcons himself and states that there is a timeline. Besides that there are plenty of instances in the games themselves where earlier events are referenced. The new game coming out is specifically stated to be the earliest story on the timeline and will explain how the original ancestral Link comes to Hyrule and how the master sword is created. Wind Waker/Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks are also specifically stated to be an alternate timeline caused by the events of Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask. They are most assuredly not retellings of the same legend.

[Renonsgoods]

So you prefer "i'm an evil bastard because i am, now i am Dracula thanks to Satan" as opposed to "i followed God's will but felt betrayed, now i will become Dracula and be a evil bastard"

I am saying that I prefer a Dracula NOT inspired by Francis Ford Coppola's work.  So, yes, I am saying that I prefer a Dracula that is a real monster, rather than one who is a tragic hero with a legitimate beef with God.

I remember that from when I was doing my research too. He had a later interview where he contradicts/retcons himself and states that there is a timeline. Besides that there are plenty of instances in the games themselves where earlier events are referenced. The new game coming out is specifically stated to be the earliest story on the timeline and will explain how the original ancestral Link comes to Hyrule and how the master sword is created. Wind Waker/Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks are also specifically stated to be an alternate timeline caused by the events of Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask. They are most assuredly not retellings of the same legend.

Well like I said, the basic re-telling concept (which apparently the older Zelda's were meant to have) is what I'm after here, whether it still applies to the latter LoZ titles or not.

[Nagumo]

I'm not sure what the problem is. Dracula shows a lot of traits with Vlad Tepes. He impalms people, and he was a warlord of some sorts before becoming evil in CVIII. What more is there to his character?   

[Koutei]

A new approach needed for this series?

This.

http://2ch.jpn21.net/Imgboard/01/data/img20110525020505.jpg

[Dark Nemesis]

This.

http://2ch.jpn21.net/Imgboard/01/data/img20110525020505.jpg

Aaaahhhhh....now this is what i want to see as E3 reveal!!!