Topic: Lords of Shadow sequel is coming out this year, hinted by David Cox over twitter

[shelverton.]

I played a bit of LoS last night and then I thought long and hard about what made it not click with me. And it's this: Enemies have too much health. Plain and simple.

I understand you can't have a combo fighting system if enemies die after 2-3 hits, but the strong enemies completely kills the pace for me. It makes fighting a chore and it has absolutely nothing to do with classic Castlevania. So, for a LoS sequel I would like to see this go away. I want a clearer distinction between normal enemies and minibosses. Which won't happen. But one can dream, can't they?

There are 3D action games where enemies die after only a hit or two, but they're still challenging and have EXCELLENT pace. Shinobi for PS2 comes to mind. For obvious reasons, Castlevania shouldn't play like Shinobi, but there are things to be learnt from it.

On the other hand we have Demon's Souls/Dark Souls. These games have enemies that can take a while to kill, but it never seems as drawn out as in LoS. And even when it is, it totally works for these games. Why? The Souls series doesn't pretend to be fast, combo-style action game. They're methodical and slow by nature but you're always pushing forward in a suitable pace. LoS aspires to be a much faster and more flexible game and would as such benefit from a faster pace, which can't happen as long as you're stuck in room after room hacking away at enemies that NEVER effin dies.

I dunno what my point was with all this. I guess I'm just not happy with modern 3D combat, unless it's the Shinobi or Demon's Souls. Two complete opposites, but both works for me. And 3D Castlevania should study them both and decide what it wants to be. Devil May Cry and God of War should not be the only two sources of inspiration.

IMHO.

[Dominus Agony]

What comes to mind are the skeletons; they have way too much health, and they're skeletons.

[RichterB]

Shelverton and Dominus Agony have both hit big nails on the head here. I've had the same thoughts.

Shelverton noted Shinobi, and while he even mentioned that's not quite right, it's more in the right direction in terms of blending action AND platforming (plus it had a true 3D camera to emphasize and utilize the fact that its levels are 3D). The same could be said for another game around the time of Shinobi, that being Capcom's Maximo, which was a 3D reimagining of one of Castlevania's own action-platforming/horror contemporaries, Ghosts N Ghouls. The heart of Castlevania is "Action-Platforming." It can have whistles and bells, but the player has to be able to multitask on the fly. You need to be able to jump over a death pit and hit that skeleton on the platform across from you throwing bones at you. There is a certain rhythm to level design and a certain amount of precision physics through player control that is necessary.

In that light, while not 100%, we are definitely talking about taking Castlevania back more in the direction of Castlevania 64/Legacy of Darkness in terms of core gameplay. (Given the fan splits, and these games' infamous/misunderstood reputation, though, it's highly unlikely).

The following are excerpts of a similar conversation I had with Neobelmont and others, which is quite relevant to the direction this thread has taken:

10/11/10
...I won't deny that LoS' combat system can be fun and very cool-looking, but I also found a surprising amount of variety in CV64's simplicity. To illustrate, I'll use two examples. Gabriel vs. Lycans and Reinhardt vs. Skeletons.

*With Gabriel, with the right timing, you can spam a Lycan by knocking it into the air and coming around with a spinning whip slam that eliminates the foe. (Or you can throw a knife and watch it explode). Later on, magic comes into play.
*With Reinhardt, you whip a skeleton, go into a slide tackle, and come up with a short-ranged blade swipe. (Or, jump in, whip, and then hit with the holy water or sub-weapon of choice). In LoD, you can upgrade sub-weapons to do more damage.

Now, it seems to me that the pre-programmed button-press combos of LoS make the game more about robotic calculation, and less about player ingenuity. Also, the amount of combos, and the power within them, lessen (almost negate) the importance of sub-weapons. More importantly, the simple combat of CV64 means most enemies take less hits, which in turn makes for scenarios like Level 2 of CV64 where you have to platform-jump while dealing with medusa heads, bats, bone pillars (and their projectiles), as well as crumbling/flipping platforms and falling guillotines.

Meanwhile, heavy combo-centric combat doesn't naturally engender the gameplay rhythm necessary to dodge structural obstacles AND fight the enemies. In fact, it emphasizes the "fight action," resulting in more arena-type scenarios, and less strategic enemy placement (bone-throwers on broken bridges) and free-form pursuing enemies (like the Forest of Silence's running skeletons). The former scenario is also where sub-weapons come most in handy, yet if the scenario is lacking, the sub-weapons again dip in their importance. As a result, the sections of action and platforming seem to become stratified and separated in LoS, which isn't the Castlevania norm...

9/9/11

...by the sound of it seems like something along the lines of...[M]aximo, where, yeah the attacks are not as combo crazy, but you will be able to multitask which makes sense see[ing] as how Castlevania had you doing both.

Yes, LoS combo system is great but, yes, in the sense of action-platforming that you were explaining it gets a C+ it is not that it is bad but more of not being fluid it just seems to me that Maximo would be like what your describing.

Kind of like this right?

Let's Play Maximo: Ghosts To Glory Part 13-Platforming Extravaganza!

Bingo! The video, with Maximo, is definitely what I'm getting at: 3D camera, dynamic level design that utilizes said camera, and multitasking of combat and platforming without excessive, pre-programmed showboating and juggling.  (I don't know if LoS, as is with its controls and camera, can duplicate the sort of experience Maximo had there in that vid--especially as seamlessly/smoothly.

While we're on the same page for a moment, let me suggest something else I'd like to see improved from LoS. The swing-platforming. It needs to be freed up and more about timing and physics than just on-rails events. This may be taking it a bit far, but check out this Bionic Commando video, which frees up the controls and the camera for some fun and amazing gameplay: Bionic Commando - Swinging Gameplay (HQ) (Even SCV-IV on the SNES had more physics and tension to its whip/swing-platforming than LoS--though LoS' "repelling" aspect was a cool addition).

Also, with both of these, and Maximo in particular, that's why I said CV64 had the right building blocks in its combat/platforming system and level design. Check out the video of CV64 I will link here in a moment, and pay special attention to 0:17-2:10 for cleverly-crafted, tense action-platforming that is as "Castlevania" as Dracula's fangs (and missing from LoS). And then, check out 3:56-5:15 to see what I meant about not needing intense combos or closed-off, flat arenas to engender combat, as this allows the level to develop naturally and for the player to tackle the situation how they see fit, moving where they want to naturally as a part of the level design itself, as opposed to being stuck in a set piece with forced invisible walls where you need to clear enemies or wait for a certain amount of enemy animations to happen (like the giant Ogre section in LoS' fortress). Castlevania 64 Reinhardt Walkthrough Part 4 (There is a flow and calculation to the gameplay that goes back to that Level 2 section everyone points out in CV1 NES as iconic, where you had the medusa heads AND the axe knight, and had to plot out how to overcome multiple obstacles at once while fighting. The answer isn't as simple as use X-combo x-amount of times and overpower my enemies; it's more about surviving).

[Dremn]

If they toned the enemy health down it would make the game far more enjoyable, I don't like spending long amounts of time hacking away at the same baddie while worrying about another equally as strong baddie in the same fight unless it's a boss battle. Not to mention the enemies already do a lot of damage to you when you're hit, so it would even things out.

[Kingshango]

Im with the above posters on this, some enemies had too much health and made battles tedious, not to mention that later enemies like the skeletons and creeping coffen's take a significant amount of health from you.

I believe the reason for this is that Gabriel's attacks doesn't seem to get stronger, even if he get's a bunch of combo's, he's still doing the same amount of damage every time(turn on the enemy life bar and damage counter to see what I mean). If they had say.....added RPG elements and have Gabriel become progressivly stronger as the game went on and enemies would get curb stomped easily, minus the bosses. The only time Gabriel got stronger visibly was at the end of Resurrection when he took The Forgotton One's power and that didn't even get a proper cutscene.

If Lords of Shadow 2 has to have one this it's RPG elements like the Metroidvania's did. The way I see it Lords of Shadow was a homage to the Classicvania's like Castlevania's 1 through X and I think it's fair that Lords of Shadow 2 pay homage to the Metroidvania's like SOTN through OoE. The question is will Konami/Mercurysteam listen or will they turn a blind eye and put their fingers in their ears and scream "LALALALALALALALALALA"?

[Flame]

Hoooooly shit those skeletons were fucking ridiculous. I loved LoS, but there was no excuse for that shit.

[Neobelmont]

Now I have to play it again to see what every one is talking about. With the health thing.

[BingleGod]

On the other hand we have Demon's Souls/Dark Souls. These games have enemies that can take a while to kill, but it never seems as drawn out as in LoS. And even when it is, it totally works for these games. Why? The Souls series doesn't pretend to be fast, combo-style action game. They're methodical and slow by nature but you're always pushing forward in a suitable pace.

Demon's/Dark Souls also give physical visual feedback on attacked opponents, i.e. hitting something produces an effect outside of spectacular light shows. LoS follows the terrible God of War model where you slap unflinching enemies to death, so the protracted fights feel even longer and more tedious.