Topic: Double Dragon 4 announced

[JR]

Definitely underwhelming. Pretty tough game so far, but not really in a good way. I'll definitely keep playing it until I beat it (got to the start of mission 12 so far), but it's really an exercise in frustration. You get so overwhelmed at hordes of enemies sometimes that you're just getting knocked down, hit a few with one of your get-up moves, rinse and repeat until you lose a life. Trying to get the spinning headbutt thing to work each time you get up can be devastating to a group of enemies, but it seems like such a risk, since - if you're like me - you fail to pull it off most of the time, do an elbow instead, and proceed to get pummeled.

What I would've liked to see is a combat system like Double Dragon Advance had. Man, that game was fun. Managing crowds was more intuitive back then when compared to this game.

It's a shame that Technos finally moved forward with a new story in the series (even though the plot's not very interesting, but I digress), but the gameplay we got is this. It seems like it's going to be an extremely polarizing game that will ultimately fail to generate interest in the series.

EDIT: I was just reading the GameFAQs board for this game (checking out GameFAQS boards makes me a masochist, I guess), And people were indicating that you can select Story, push the Options button on the PS4 controller, and scroll through the levels you've already beaten. I tried it and it works. WTF. Now the game's difficulty just became trivial. They give you all of your lives and credits intact no matter which level you start from. That's so weird.

Also, one small, funny detail I really liked in this game is how satisfying it feels when you knock enemies in the lava in one of the stages. If they did anything perfectly in this game, it was the visuals and sound on that part. Nailed it!

[affinity]

so people rant about the hardcore difficulty, then think adding stage select with full credits is weird, when its a generous easy mode option for casuals, and doesn't take away from the hardcore challenge of beating it all without resorting to stage select?  sigh.

overall, there's already videos of people going beyond 100 floors,  so there's really skillful and strategic ways to overcome the odds.  overall I say it's the ultimate Double Dragon in the series.  the others are sorely lacking in replay value incentives compared to DDIV.  and the combat is great for the series.
it is refreshing from the spongebrain Dynasty Warriors level of difficulty most beat em ups boil down to.     there's no shortage of challenges and better skilled fighters in DDIV.

 some people call it cheap, but players could elbow their way through everything in the original DD1 arcade game.   a.i. dont have the luxury of calling players cheap.

[JR]

so people rant about the hardcore difficulty, then think adding stage select with full credits is weird, when its a generous easy mode option for casuals, and doesn't take away from the hardcore challenge of beating it all without resorting to stage select?  sigh.

Yeah, it is weird. If they wanted to cater to casuals, they could've just put an official Easy Mode right in the game, clear for everyone to see at the opening screen. Instead, they put a somewhat-hidden mission select in the opening screen instead. 

overall, there's already videos of people going beyond 100 floors,  so there's really skillful and strategic ways to overcome the odds.

You mean the ones where players hang out at the bottom of the screen, where enemies won't touch them? Throwing lots of fireballs with both players playing as Mysterious Warrior? Not to badmouth the guys who put up the 100+ floors videos, but I wouldn't call that "really skillful and strategic." That's more like exploiting some serious AI flaws. But I don't blame them, because that's what you need to do to do well at this game, which is a shame. It's the same reason why I don't like playing through DD3.

overall I say it's the ultimate Double Dragon in the series.  the others are sorely lacking in replay value incentives compared to DDIV.  and the combat is great for the series.

I couldn't disagree more. To me, this game is better than DD3 and Super Double Dragon. But that's about it. Double Dragon Advance was an excellent example of throwing a lot of enemies at you, but giving you a good way to control crowds. Admittedly, it was pretty easy (although you can put limits on credits and continues), but it was one of the most fun games in the series.

And DDIV's replay value is pretty shallow. There are some better characters like Sonny and Mysterious Warrior, but I'm sure there aren't many people who want to play through the game as low-level grunts like Williams or Roper (trophy hunters notwithstanding).
 

 

some people call it cheap, but players could elbow their way through everything in the original DD1 arcade game.   a.i. dont have the luxury of calling players cheap.

Good thing that games are made for the enjoyment of the user, and not the AI. And yeah, the back elbow exploit from DD1 is definitely a thing, but it's the slowest, most boring way of playing the game. You can still beat the game without the elbow using very few credits, so long as you use spacing and the environment to your advantage.

[TheTextGuy]

Yeah, it is weird. If they wanted to cater to casuals, they could've just put an official Easy Mode right in the game, clear for everyone to see at the opening screen. Instead, they put a somewhat-hidden mission select in the opening screen instead. 

That, or just make the mission select visible from the start through a "continue" option on the main menu.  Though, kinda cheesed it with the "Shin Nekketsu spinning headbutt" move on the second playthrough.

And DDIV's replay value is pretty shallow. There are some better characters like Sonny and Mysterious Warrior, but I'm sure there aren't many people who want to play through the game as low-level grunts like Williams or Roper (trophy hunters notwithstanding).

Reminds me of the iPhone version, where the enemies and bosses were playable.  Some of them are fun, but then there are the Williams who are kinda naff and boring after the novelty of playing as cannon fodder wears off.  Besides which I mainly played as Jimmy in that version.

[Claimh Solais]

The replay value here seems akin to Dynasty Warriors 2.

Sure, there are 20+ characters to play through the game as, but the replay value is shallow at best and you're really just going through the same five stages over and over again as different characters.

[zangetsu468]

This doesn't sound good to me, I'm out.. Sticking with Neon.. #johnmayer

[Claimh Solais]

This doesn't sound good to me, I'm out.. Sticking with Neon.. #johnmayer

Was mostly my plan. If DD4 wasn't only $7 I probably woulda skipped it altogether since I'm really tired of the whole retro-aesthetic. It doesn't come off as an aesthetic to me anymore, it just comes off as lazy, especially when a high profile company like ArcSys are the ones working on it. (I'm not expecting anything like BlazBlue sprites, but some decent HD sprites or 3D models).

Double Dragon Neon is still one of my favorite beat-em-ups of all time, so I'm really bummed that DD4 wasn't more like that.

[TheTextGuy]

Fun fact: Apparently ArcSys did the SMS Double Dragon port.  They also did Battletoads for the MD.

Also I haven't played River City Tokyo Rumble yet, but if this and River City Super Sports Challenge are anything to go by, it seems at this point those IPs are either going to be used as cheap cash grabs irregardless of quality or handed to other (hopefully more competent) devs.  Not saying River City Super Sports Challenge for the PC and PS3 is a bad game, but it's definitely flawed and imperfect (and hard to get netplay matches).  (Also I find it quite fun).

Funny thing, they did use 3D models for the DS version of River City Super Sports Challenge as well as River City Soccer Hooligans (also for the DS), but then as soon as the Renegage remake came around (Japan only), it was back to the old NES sprites.

Also, on another note, DDIV falls into the same problem that Sonic 4 falls into, in which a numbered sequel falls very short of expectations and doesn't live up to the prior games.  As well, it doesn't really get much of what worked.

[affinity]

Double Dragon IV is a masterpiece.  it surpasses expectations, it lives up to previous games.

I think it's all just a mainstream sexist controversy because considering this is the first very Double Dragon game with multiple playable female characters for story mode, besides VS, as well as having female twins as the final bosses, and so the misogynists and Trump supporters are labeling it as feminist/SJW stuff.  So haters automatically criticize and ostracize it and underrated EVERYTHING about it.  and with the rants about most games not featuring local co op, here DDIV has local co op and the haters ignore that and demand online co op.

and on top of that, classic fans are so ungrateful, this is the most worthy Double Dragon since the NES games,
the gameplay is solid, of course Double Dragon Advance is more technical, but that is not nearly as fun and diversified like DDIV is.

DDIV is practically the Street Fighter II equivalent to beat em ups,  but the ignorant masses don't see it because they mostly evaluate games based on TEH GRAPHICS (just like Lords of Shadow is SOOOO overrated and overhyped by the Castlevania games, just because it raised the bar for graphics in the series, even when its core betrays the fundamentals. then the devs got an ego trip and made the sequel worse. )  Abobo, Linda and tons of others are finally playable in story mode, and the fans and critics don't appreciate it.


so yea another part of the DDIV underrated madness, is the whole graphics stuff.

meanwhile, Minecraft is praised and considered an art form, yet critics don't respect for DDIV did to preserve the
NES look that made the series more authentic than the higher graphics games. even the arcade originals didnt look as charismatic as the NES games, and DDIV is overall excellent, plus its Tower mode provides massive challenge and countless floors. 

I mean like really, if Nioh had these graphics, no one would be giving it higher scores and praise right now.

almost no one has good judgment nor fair evaluation skills these days.  and on top of that this industry these days are PLAGUED with excessive negativity, pessimism and toxic mindsets.

[JR]

Please don't tell me you're blaming criticism of the game on misogyny and Donald Trump...that's just absurd (really hoping this thread doesn't get shut down, now that politics has been thrown into it). I haven't seen any widespread criticism (or any criticism at all, for that matter) of the Okada sisters being the final bosses. The criticism has always been about the frustrating AI, the somewhat bland environments, and the recycled sprites.

I hate to say it, but this game just isn't that good. Since Kishimoto and other members of the original team were involved with this game, expectations were high. I appreciate their effort, but they just didn't deliver this time. I'm a huge fan of the series overall, and I have to admit that the criticism of this game has been pretty fair so far.

And I really do believe that if it were an excellent game, a lot of people would've been willing to look past the graphics. It's not so much that the graphics were bad or anything, but they were all just mostly copypasted from the previous games. People were expecting more from a brand new entry into the series, and I can't say that I blame them too much.



...anyway, is anybody else playing Tower Mode on this game? I can get to the 80th floor, but that's the farthest I can get so far. Friggin' Sonny is the bane of my existence. I usually lose a few chunks of health to him, since it's risky to engage in fireball warfare with him from far away, and there's always the risk of eating an instant cyclone kick when fighting him up close.

[TheTextGuy]

I think it's all just a mainstream sexist controversy because considering this is the first very Double Dragon game with multiple playable female characters for story mode

So, we not counting Double Dragon for the Neo Geo?  What about Double Dragon for the Zeebo and Double Dragon for the iPhone?  They had female bosses and enemies as playable characters.

[JR]

Got to floor 94 of the tower...so friggin' close...

[zangetsu468]

DDIV is practically the Street Fighter II equivalent to beat em ups

I think Final Fight is much closer to SFII in comparison. It was released closer to SFII and was always packed at arcades.

meanwhile, Minecraft is praised and considered an art form

I can't speak for other gamers, but I've never played Minecraft, it doesn'tappeal to me. I am an oldschool gamer though, and Minecraft seems like you could basically just create anything in fps with pixels... Not really my idea of an interesting game (not unless I could just buy fps NES Zelda, that would be pretty sweet.)

I mean like really, if Nioh had these graphics, no one would be giving it higher scores and praise right now.

Nioh is not really a fair example or comparison. There's never been a Nioh game out before and it's in no way related to DD in the slightest.

I think visually Nioh can be a fairly attractive game particularly running in the mode with higher framerate, however, for a game that was in development for so long, I can't say I would have picked that based purely on its graphics.
If anything I like the style and effects of its graphics over the technical sense of the word graphics anyday with Nioh.

almost no one has good judgment nor fair evaluation skills these days.  and on top of that this industry these days are PLAGUED with excessive negativity, pessimism and toxic mindsets.

The first part is very harsh and it seems like your opinion is clouded by emotion. There are some shitty reviewers out there, probably lots. However, all in all if you look up games in metacritic, I'd say the mean percentage ratings they're given are typically accurate.

Negativity is a common asset, but it doesn't originate in gamers, my friend. Negativity, depression, mental illnesses are more a by product of the last/ newer generations. It still existed before, but it wasn't really as understood. People are getting more liberal with opinions these days and this has been aided by our good mate "the internet". Gone are the days of having to leave your house, call someone up on their landline (speaking to their family in a civil manner prior to them), leaving your house and having a conversation. This generation probably has the most silver-spooners and is packed with the most first world problems because people are competitive, and times are still relatively good regardless of the GFC and how the media likes to portray the world as "doom and gloom" (they are more guilty of being the WORST reviewers/ analytics of all time)

These days opinions are a dime a dozen, they need to be taken with a grain of salt.. Anyone can write a review, nothing makes a reviewer more qualified than someone who knows and understands games and gaming and the industry itself. Why do you think companies who have blockbuster titles that get reviewed badly, now and again blacklist that reviewer from ever receiving their next beta/ pre-release copy? There are some doozies around but not every reviewer is poorly researched and highly opinionated, some actually do their job, as if they were a journalist, they do research and make valid analyses of why something works or doesn't, not just saying "I TINK DIZ IZ BAD..4/10...LEL"

Sometimes a bad or mixed review will make me want to play a game more, depending on what is said. Often if it's clear a reviewer doesn't know what they're talking about or dismisses a game for not being the way they thought it would be - or even worse, for not being like another game, which has nothing to to with anything - I call bullshit and if interested I play the game for myself and come to my own conclusions. Opinions will always exist. People will troll and leave negativity on the internet because they can. Real life Vs written life is much different.

In retrospect, Neon has been and gone now.. Neon took DD into the next gen, so to speak. Was it a bad thing to go back and try to recreate an "original" DD as opposed to say making Neon 2? Sometimes there's oldschool and sometimes there's playing it safe. (A balance between the two in my mind is Mario Maker.. The oldschool content with newschool dynamics and finishing touches.) DD IV actually looks okay to me, but it does look "same same" and I wonder if after something like Neon, whether the majority of the fans can ever go back. it's funny you mentioned Street Fighter II before, because now "Ultra Street Fighter II: The Final Challengers" has been announced. I have the same reservations for this as I did with DDIV. For me it looks too samey as its predecessors, particularly years after SFIII, IV and V have been released. I'm not saying it will be bad, both USFII and DDIV could surprise me, but what it does do is make me want to prioritise other games beforehand.

[Claimh Solais]

Affinity, I think you need to relax.

Firstly, don't devolve a simple video game discussion into anything that has to do with sexism or politics. Nobody brought either of those things up. Secondly, quit bringing the graphics up. The graphics are a very minor complaint compared to everything else being brought up.

Graphics don't make a good game and everyone here knows it. The Double Dragon 2 remake that came out after Neon was absolute garbage stank and that game had "better" graphics than DD4.

If you like the game, great. More power to you. You can enjoy something other people don't. There's no reason to be in such a huff about it.

[JR]

Just started playing through Story Mode with some of the other characters, and I think this is where the game's flaws show through even worse.

If you use a god-tier character like Mysterious Warrior or Sonny, you can plow through the game. Projectile users like Williams and Linda make it a breeze, too. But play the game as Right Arm or a similar character, then prepare to be curb-stomped. You will get beaten to the punch so often that you might as well get comfortable with laying on the ground. I can't even imagine trying to slog through Story Mode with Burnov or the sumo guy: they're both slow as hell, so I can't even imagine landing hits under any circumstances outside of wake-up attacks. I was originally planning to go for the platinum trophy because fuck it, it's Double Dragon, and the game can actually be fun at times. But when it's frustrating, it's extremely so.