Topic: January 2015 Castlevania Dungeon MUSIC Contest

[Chernabogue]

I also learned from tests/errors (you can still find some of my earlier and crappy works on YouTube lol), but helping a little other people won't hurt, especially if we have more entries.

[darkmanx_429]

*points to my post summarizing multiple methods of doing this stuff*
*points to the unfinished guide Jorge's working on*
*points to Jorge's long post earlier in the thread*
*points to BMC's reply to said post*

 :/

A thing to consider; if one has no skills in a certain field, why on earth would they suddenly leap into a contest with seasoned people? Or leap into a contest at all?

Leaving tutorials for every little thing is nice and all (personally I think the resource threads cover most of it), but you can only help for so long before you're just needlessly holding someone's hand through everything.

People should be allowed to follow their own path and develop their own unique style of doing things, especially if it's something musically or artistically-related. Putting up detailed "here's how I do things" threads runs the risk of newcomers trying too hard to emulate some else's style due to their lack of experience, instead of developing their own style.

I never read up on any threads, or tutorials, or what-have-you, I learned through trial and error what function did what or what plugin sounded best. It's great what you're trying to do, but it seems to me that you're treating this thread like it was catered specifically to certain people and shut out others. I can't help but take offense to that. It's true the theme coincided with what I usually do anyway, but that's only because it's something I know enough about to reasonably make a ruleset, and also because I know not many of our resident Abbadons do chiptunes.

Contests are supposed to be fun and enjoyable, yes, but they're also supposed to pit you against any other potential person. The competition is meant to motivate you to do better than all the others, and thus improve or expand your skillset.

*points to my post summarizing multiple methods of doing this stuff*
*points to the unfinished guide Jorge's working on*
*points to Jorge's long post earlier in the thread*
*points to BMC's reply to said post*


I don't agree with dumbing this sort of thing down to make things easier for new practitioners. I'm sorry, I just don't. You don't get better when everything's a cakewalk and your hand is held the entire time. You get better when faced with adversity and challenge.

Do I agree with your desire for music-program links and basic tutorials? Definitely.

Do I agree with your seeming resignation and accusation that this contest was rigged for certain members? Fuck no, and I'm sincerely hoping I'm misinterpreting here, otherwise my offense to it is legitimate.

Tutorials for most plugins and methods and functions for most music programs litter the web, and the F1 button is definitely a thing. People are certainly capable of looking in this stuff on their own time and in their own way. They don't need coddling.

Yes, I know dumping the "Google it, noob" plate on someone's lap can be overwhelming or intimidating and very possibly elitist; however, there's a line between holding someone's hand so that they never feel intimidated or challenged, and remaining reasonably ambiguous on certain things so that they can develop their own style. And I'm having a really hard time figuring out what side of the line you're currently on, darkman. Help a brother out.

Not really trying to take any side bro, I'm just offering suggestions and maybe the next Music contest would benefit from it.

If you notice the amount of posts that people put on the thread about the intricacies of the contest (almost to the very end)then that alone should let you know that this contest needed some adjustments.  The number of participants this month should speak for itself.

And I don't mean that in a bad way because the same thing could be said about my sprite contest for this month, but no one really complained about it and I put out a PDF to combat any issues about people telling me that they didn't have any ideas so at least I tried in that regard.

All I am saying is that is if one has no skills in a certain field how would they even know that this was a contest that was for JUST seasoned veterans?

The same thing could be said about any of the contests because we all have different disciplines and degrees of technical knowledge.

That doesn't mean that people with little or no experience can't try or get better.

We have already seen many members step outside of the comfort zones to trying things that they normally don't do because of these contests and we have even had many members who skills may have been a little ameturish start to become solid Sprite Artists and such and even place 1st in these contests!

This was the point I was trying to make:

Exactly dude. For you guys it's like child play, but you gotta make the tutorials/software recommendations in a way where if someone just happened to stumble across these contests and had no clue how to do this stuff, they could at least jump in and get their feet wet!

I DID see your post but the way you explained it was in a way where you where talking so technical that it went over my head. No one's trying to say you didn't try to help but for me I didn't get anything because I never tried to do anything like this before. That didn't mean that I didn't want to.

No one is saying either that you have to hold someone's hand through everything, but like anything else everyone starts from somewhere.

What is the difference between someone posting a sprite or a 3D model in a contest and getting feedback for their entry? The same thing applies here.

[theANdROId]

A thing to consider; if one has no skills in a certain field, why on earth would they suddenly leap into a contest with seasoned people? Or leap into a contest at all?

I did!  The Food Sprite contest was my first time ever trying to sprite.  I really kinda sucked at it...not in any drastic sense, but just the sense that I lack finer skills...I'm a noob.  :-)

I get what all you're saying though, and what darkmanx says.  "Tips and pointers" from the experienced are nice because they may lead me to shortcuts or whatever that they've discovered, or maybe they can summarize really well and save me from having to read Jorges dissertation! ;-P  If/when I (personally) copy them, it's just to see how things work -- a first step in carving my own path.  It may only be my word, and there are those out there whose word isn't worth much, but I wouldn't sell something like that as my own creative genius.
Plus, those with experience (potentially) know of good tutorials, or materials for using.  In the pixel contest, I wouldn't have known I could use Paint if someone hadn't suggested it.  I appreciate recommendations like that.
I wouldn't mind trying my hand at this music stuff too...for no good reason, I just have an interest in these things and have for awhile.  It's these contests here, and the tips and suggestions of the pros that are the "oomph" for me to finally, actually get up and do something -- to look into it and give it a try!

So...sure, point me in whatever direction...give me some ideas how to start and how it works...it's kinda my "research" for starting a project.  But I get not wanting to hold someone's hand.  For me, I don't think it'd be long before I'd be pulling away and wanting to do it on my own anyway. :-)

[darkmanx_429]

I did!  The Food Sprite contest was my first time ever trying to sprite.  I really kinda sucked at it...not in any drastic sense, but just the sense that I lack finer skills...I'm a noob.  :-)

I get what all you're saying though, and what darkmanx says.  "Tips and pointers" from the experienced are nice because they may lead me to shortcuts or whatever that they've discovered, or maybe they can summarize really well and save me from having to read Jorges dissertation! ;-P  If/when I (personally) copy them, it's just to see how things work -- a first step in carving my own path.  It may only be my word, and there are those out there whose word isn't worth much, but I wouldn't sell something like that as my own creative genius.
Plus, those with experience (potentially) know of good tutorials, or materials for using.  In the pixel contest, I wouldn't have known I could use Paint if someone hadn't suggested it.  I appreciate recommendations like that.
I wouldn't mind trying my hand at this music stuff too...for no good reason, I just have an interest in these things and have for awhile.  It's these contests here, and the tips and suggestions of the pros that are the "oomph" for me to finally, actually get up and do something -- to look into it and give it a try!

So...sure, point me in whatever direction...give me some ideas how to start and how it works...it's kinda my "research" for starting a project.  But I get not wanting to hold someone's hand.  For me, I don't think it'd be long before I'd be pulling away and wanting to do it on my own anyway. :-)

My point exactly! I would love try a music contest too just because I never done anything musical before and I would just like to see how I could do at it!

Maybe I would even like it, and a contest like this would be something that I could get interested in and finish a piece to completion.

P.S. And Android, your sprite didn't suck at all.

[Dracula9]

Yeah, I get all that, but when you explicitly state "yeah I know you posted stuff to help but it was too technical and I didn't get it" what the hell am I supposed to take from it? Help, but don't explain how the stuff actually works? Dumb things down so nobody's confused?

At the end of it, nothing was really stopping you from entering. Most music software has free demos, and it's not hard to import a MIDI and replace its channels. A lot of the time these programs have little "welcome!" popups that show all the basics.

It's not fair to blame the contest makers or anything when there is nothing objectively stopping you from entering. If you wanted to enter you could have. I explained exactly how I do chiptunes, and a few other methods. It's not my fault if you didn't understand the technicalities. And why wait until the END of the contest to chime in about that? Why not bring it up at a point where it could be addressed early enough for you to still enter?

Again, I'm ALL for tips and pointers, I really am. Contrary to what it might appear, I DO remember being the noob who didn't know anything. So I know how important little tips and pointers and howtos are. However, that's a tough thing to generalize. Could we make a guide summing up everything? Sure, but there'd be so much information (however simplified it would be) that new people would likely be intimidated. As I said, there's no "right" way to do music.

I'm in favor of helping new folks, but to be honest I'd like to actually see a little initiative on their part. This is where my hand-holding comment comes into play. I'll help people period if I'm able, but it makes things a lot easier on everyone when I'm helping someone who helps themselves. You don't have to know the correct questions to ask, you simply have to ask.

And motion seconded, android. That was great for a first attempt. 

[darkmanx_429]

Yeah, I get all that, but when you explicitly state "yeah I know you posted stuff to help but it was too technical and I didn't get it" what the hell am I supposed to take from it? Help, but don't explain how the stuff actually works? Dumb things down so nobody's confused?

At the end of it, nothing was really stopping you from entering. Most music software has free demos, and it's not hard to import a MIDI and replace its channels. A lot of the time these programs have little "welcome!" popups that show all the basics.

It's not fair to blame the contest makers or anything when there is nothing objectively stopping you from entering. If you wanted to enter you could have. I explained exactly how I do chiptunes, and a few other methods. It's not my fault if you didn't understand the technicalities. And why wait until the END of the contest to chime in about that? Why not bring it up at a point where it could be addressed early enough for you to still enter?

Again, I'm ALL for tips and pointers, I really am. Contrary to what it might appear, I DO remember being the noob who didn't know anything. So I know how important little tips and pointers and howtos are. However, that's a tough thing to generalize. Could we make a guide summing up everything? Sure, but there'd be so much information (however simplified it would be) that new people would likely be intimidated. As I said, there's no "right" way to do music.

I'm in favor of helping new folks, but to be honest I'd like to actually see a little initiative on their part. This is where my hand-holding comment comes into play. I'll help people period if I'm able, but it makes things a lot easier on everyone when I'm helping someone who helps themselves. You don't have to know the correct questions to ask, you simply have to ask.

And motion seconded, android. That was great for a first attempt. 

Dude, you are totally missing the point of my post and seeming to be taking this personally and if you think I was specifically calling you out, I wasn't and I apologize. I'm not blaming anyone for anything regarding me entering I am merely offering suggestions on how to make the contest more open in the future and judging from the people that are responding I am not the only one. This is a public forum.

It doesn't matter if I mentioned this at the beginning or the end of the contest because well, I know we are going to have more contest and I have an interest in possibly participating in one and I thought that you wanted more participation in the music contests!

You said it yourself that this contest was for "seasoned" people well, that just alienates a whole part of the fan-base. Nothing is wrong with that, but I will mention it again, nowhere did it state that about this contest!

You mention that most of "these" programs have welcome blurbs or whatever, but then you fail to mention which ones...

Not that my way is the right way, but I mentioned the resources I post for the 3D contest.

Lets me break it down...

Let's see, this was the theme: Convert a post-NES/SNES song into one befitting of one of the SNES/NES titles (i.e. Tocatta into Blood-Soaked Darkness in Akumajo Densetsu VRC6 chiptune or DXX/CV4 style or something like that)

Now how does that look to someone that has never done anything with music? Hmmm..well maybe I could google: "covert a nes song into a snes song"...

google lists a bunch of nothing and songs fans already converted with no tutorials...

after some extensive searching..I find a program call nsf2midi...ok from what I see it basically takes the sound format from a nes track and just turns it into a MIDI format that you can save... that doesn't really sound like what we are doing here...

See what I mean?

What is so hard about making a few bullet points so people could jump in?

STEP1: DL VRC6 Chiptune
STEP2: GET A NES TRACK
STEP3: GET A SNES TRACK
STEP4: DO THIS TO THIS
STEP 5: SAVE LIKE THIS etc.

(I don't know anything about this..lol)

The way you explain it or seeming don't want to "dumb it down" would be like me asking someone who never picked up Maya to model a character watertight, with SPEC, NORMAL, and GLOSS maps and then make sure it's game ready to be exported into another game engine and keep it under 10,000 TRIS....how the heck are they going to know what I even mean or even to start the process...

[BMC_War Machine]

Jesus, why is it that when some of us on here get critiqued or asked for info/help/explanation etc that some get massive butthurt?  All this was meant to be was another outlet on the forums that could and shouldbe fun!!  Sorry, but Drac, dude, you need to chill dude. A few posts back, Uzo mentioned the entries being a cop-out.  What do you do?  You jump his ass.  Then you defend what you've submitted by stating that only "seasoned" veterans get how this stuff works, how this month's contest was meant to be.  Well, count me in.  I can elaborate:  Let me start off giving everyone some info on how i do my music.  Lets use my incomplete entry from last month for example.  First off, i load my DAW (Digital Audio Workstation), then i start on my drums first.  This is done with EZDrummer, a virtual instrument plugin that simulates a studio recorded drum kit (which is bad ass by the way!)  This is the first part of the puzzle that is not a real instrument.  This is were MIDI comes into play (and where IMO things get REALLY interesting, especially on this thread!).  You add a new midi track (which, if you are using your own music, will be blank, then you will notice a keyboard to the left of the screen.  These are your notes.  Picture these like channels on a TV.  When you change a channel, you get something different. Same principle.  When you add notes to different keys, you get different results i e note A4 could be a bass drum, etc etc per different keys.  Pretty simple right? Oh yeah, didn't hold any hands in saying this either  next, i tracked the symphony plugin i use (which again,is a blank UNUSED, UNEDITED...in other words, no one has made this and i used it, but CLAIM its MY remix by changing 1 or 2 notes) another midi track.  Now, this is where the midi channels come in.  Unless i am wrong, the limit was 8 channels.  What this equals out to, is that with this "chiptune" plugin is that out of X number of channels it has, only 8 can be applied.  So, to sum that up, say you have a harpsicord, horns, string section, percussion and so on, that exceeded 8 tracks, then all that was, or needed to be done, was take an already made midi track (as in, made by someone else)load it in the DAW, then just assign specific channels to specific parts of the songs.  So if that's the case, as it sounds like it is to me, then i agree, cop out.  Coming from a "seasoned" musician.  Dude, sorry but that's bullshit.  All that does is scream arrogance.  Let me tell you something - in a LIVE situation i GUARANTEE that some of the "seasoned" musicians would have little to ZERO chance to hold a candle to what i can bring, or what i have done thus far!  Go out and make money doing music, play the biggest, most popular and overall well known venues, sell them the fuck out, leave out of the place with hundreds of new fans - THEN you come back on here and tell us what's what for "seasoned" musicians!  The way you go off in your posts when someone doesn't kiss your ass, i could see WHY no one wants to jump in and do these competitions!   

/thread

[VladCT]

Yeesh, that escalated quickly. Pop a chill pill, the whole lot of ye.

[darkmanx_429]

Yeesh, that escalated quickly. Pop a chill pill, the whole lot of ye.

I don't know why..but for some reason this made me laugh!

[Shiroi Koumori]

Alrighty, the results are in, and...
1st place Dracula9
2nd place Chernabogue

Will we proceed with the Feb love song or not?

[Dracula9]

I'd say so, Shiroi. There seems to be enough support for it, and I've got a new kokyū

in a LIVE situation i GUARANTEE that some of the "seasoned" musicians would have little to ZERO chance to hold a candle to what i can bring, or what i have done thus far!  Go out and make money doing music, play the biggest, most popular and overall well known venues, sell them the fuck out, leave out of the place with hundreds of new fans - THEN you come back on here and tell us what's what for "seasoned" musicians!  The way you go off in your posts when someone doesn't kiss your ass, i could see WHY no one wants to jump in and do these competitions!

You post something like that, and I'm the arrogant one? You seem to be one of those people who insists physical instrumentation is infinitely superior to digital (though if I'm way wrong on this, correct me, I can only take your words at face value), when I've iterated three times now that there is no single "correct" method of doing music. Music is music is music, there's subjectively no right or wrong way to do it. Objectively the only right or wrong in it is technical skill. I don't have the coordination to play a physical instrument (and believe me, I've tried many times), but I know plenty of instrument-playing musicians who can't compose digitally at all. Each has its pros and cons.

And I don't expect or want people to kiss my ass. It's nice when it does happen, but I don't strut in demanding or expecting it.

Let me explain in more detail my perspective on this (not this argument itself, the subject it's based on). I never had any major help in learning this stuff, not on a technical level at least. Almost everything I know musically I taught myself. The only person I can really say has substantially helped me technically is Jorge, but even that's only been the last couple of years. I didn't have his wisdom and advice as a resource when I was first starting.

All the feedback I got as from viewers and fans. That's it. Folks saying such-and-such melody was too loud? Suggestions to boost the drums or add a louder line of hihats? Distastes and insults at work that was deemed poor quality? Those are the people I learned from, and shaped my technical knowledge on the average of all those suggestions.

My perspective on many things is that of someone who is almost entirely self-taught. I rarely had people help me out, and in my formative years I didn't have the confidence to hop on a board and ask for it. So I'm admittedly biased towards people learning things on their own time and in their own way, because that's how I learned. I never had how-to threads to point me in the right direction, I researched a lot of that myself and figured out what worked best for me through considerable trail-and-error.

-----

However, grievances and hostility aside, I've looked back on my previous posts with a clearer head (note to self, never argue while on your third day without sleep), and I do indeed see how easily I came off as arrogant or snide.

Sorry on that note. Should've known better.

I'm going to write up a how-to thread here shortly, with what links to programs and tutorials I know of. Since there's a wide variety of musical knowledge here, I'd like for those who have it to chip in with their own two cents. I know Jorge's got a huge-ass post in the works, but I do now agree with darkman that the more we have, the better.

So yeah. Apologies again for flying off the handle. There're a few barbs I'm still sore enough about to still want to argue them, but this angry-pride shit takes too much effort to keep up. So, with my own apologies in tow, I'm hoping to extend my hand and maybe make something good out of all this negativity.

Truce?

[darkmanx_429]

I'd say so, Shiroi. There seems to be enough support for it, and I've got a new kokyū

You post something like that, and I'm the arrogant one? You seem to be one of those people who insists physical instrumentation is infinitely superior to digital (though if I'm way wrong on this, correct me, I can only take your words at face value), when I've iterated three times now that there is no single "correct" method of doing music. Music is music is music, there's subjectively no right or wrong way to do it. Objectively the only right or wrong in it is technical skill. I don't have the coordination to play a physical instrument (and believe me, I've tried many times), but I know plenty of instrument-playing musicians who can't compose digitally at all. Each has its pros and cons.

And I don't expect or want people to kiss my ass. It's nice when it does happen, but I don't strut in demanding or expecting it.

Let me explain in more detail my perspective on this (not this argument itself, the subject it's based on). I never had any major help in learning this stuff, not on a technical level at least. Almost everything I know musically I taught myself. The only person I can really say has substantially helped me technically is Jorge, but even that's only been the last couple of years. I didn't have his wisdom and advice as a resource when I was first starting.

All the feedback I got as from viewers and fans. That's it. Folks saying such-and-such melody was too loud? Suggestions to boost the drums or add a louder line of hihats? Distastes and insults at work that was deemed poor quality? Those are the people I learned from, and shaped my technical knowledge on the average of all those suggestions.

My perspective on many things is that of someone who is almost entirely self-taught. I rarely had people help me out, and in my formative years I didn't have the confidence to hop on a board and ask for it. So I'm admittedly biased towards people learning things on their own time and in their own way, because that's how I learned. I never had how-to threads to point me in the right direction, I researched a lot of that myself and figured out what worked best for me through considerable trail-and-error.

-----

However, grievances and hostility aside, I've looked back on my previous posts with a clearer head (note to self, never argue while on your third day without sleep), and I do indeed see how easily I came off as arrogant or snide.

Sorry on that note. Should've known better.

I'm going to write up a how-to thread here shortly, with what links to programs and tutorials I know of. Since there's a wide variety of musical knowledge here, I'd like for those who have it to chip in with their own two cents. I know Jorge's got a huge-ass post in the works, but I do now agree with darkman that the more we have, the better.

So yeah. Apologies again for flying off the handle. There're a few barbs I'm still sore enough about to still want to argue them, but this angry-pride shit takes too much effort to keep up. So, with my own apologies in tow, I'm hoping to extend my hand and maybe make something good out of all this negativity.

Truce?

No prob D9,  I wasn't trying to start a argument (really), we're all friends here!

[Chernabogue]

Hope that Feb theme will bring moar love here.

[darkmanx_429]

Hope that Feb theme will bring moar love here.

Me too..lol
A special look at Daniel Bryan & Kane "hugging it out": Raw: Sept. 10, 2012

Just to be clear basically Feb's music contest will be a romantic/love theme?

[theANdROId]

Hope that Feb theme will bring moar love here.

X-D  LOL!


Thanks for the spriting compliments!  It was fun, and I have some resources to read to learn from, as well as experiment with "cheap-as-free" type programs for spriting, or otherwise stick with Paint.  I'll end up doing the same with these music contests too (beginning with Drac9's guide topic, most likely).  While I love music and have always liked noticing melodies/harmonies in game music, and how the music fits the scene, the music contests do seem a little more intimidating somehow than the sprite contests. :-S