Topic: We voted for the wrong guy? IGA

[Sinful]

Yeah, I pretty much know when the Nerd (or anyone else) is totally unfair for the most part, so no worries. (And he does so many unfair things too) Basically when the Nerd does his videos, he only focuses on then negative aspects, even if they aren't flaws. As long as he can make people laugh with it, it goes in.

Oh, and I won't watch or read any reviews on the other vania games I haven't played most of yet (most of my review I read or watch after I finish a game... works best this way as most reviewers as so wrong and just don't get so many things about game design and difficulty anyways... I mean, come on, who basically even does know about these things?).

But Sinful, I wonder what you'll think of KCEK's two N64 3D entries. There's a bit of a learning and pacing curve to them...but I'd say about 3 levels of each provide their basic flavor (with some of the latter levels building on the mixture of action-platforming and structured exploration of the earlier levels). The AVGN wasn't totally fair with them, IMO.

Yeah me too? This game really has me interested. The only thing stopping me now or slowing things down is my interest in the 2D classic vania games is still at an all time high. Like right now I'm really giving Castlevania III some series playtime, as it's really got my full out attention at the moment. Especially after I found an NES emulator with Blargg's NTSC TV filter.

From what you said in this quote about the learning and pacing curve really makes me think I'll like it. This is what I look for in my games these days, a nice and long learning curve. ... It shouldn't be long until I play & dedicate a lot of time for the two N64 games. And will let you know my thoughts on them + it's the perfect reason to play some N64 again.

[RichterB]

Oh, and I won't watch or read any reviews on the other vania games I haven't played most of yet (most of my review I read or watch after I finish a game... works best this way as most reviewers as so wrong and just don't get so many things about game design and difficulty anyways... I mean, come on, who basically even does know about these things?).

Yeah me too? This game really has me interested. The only thing stopping me now or slowing things down is my interest in the 2D classic vania games is still at an all time high. Like right now I'm really giving Castlevania III some series playtime, as it's really got my full out attention at the moment. Especially after I found an NES emulator with Blargg's NTSC TV filter.

From what you said in this quote about the learning and pacing curve really makes me think I'll like it. This is what I look for in my games these days, a nice and long learning curve. ... It shouldn't be long until I play & dedicate a lot of time for the two N64 games. And will let you know my thoughts on them + it's the perfect reason to play some N64 again.

Oh, yeah, you really should enjoy each Castlevania and give each their due. So many of them have such great replay value, especially III. No need to rush or anything. And it's definitely good to avoid spoilers. Regardless, between some of the tricky platforming, the use of three-dimensional space for some of its puzzles, and the staggered save system where you can only save at specific spots/intervals in a level, the N64 games take some effort to figure out and master. It's a deliberate design that requires some investment. (An important part of that is knowing you can use the "R" button to center the camera if you get in a spot where you're measuring an extra precarious jump, as the first entry has more camera quirks than its follow-up. The R Button also can be used to lock onto the nearest enemy, and if you hold it, as I recall, you can perform certain side-steps while holding the analog stick in a specific direction and pushing the jump button, sort of like Richter's backflip).

More generally, I want to note three quick things:

1.) Gametrailers' Castlevania Retrospective has the best visual presentation of the N64 games I've seen, capturing a lot of their appeal in a short space of film (spoilers!): (00:48-6:20) Part III: Realm of Horror - The Castlevania Retrospective

2.) As some retrospectives admit, the Castlevanias on the N64 were rather impressive given they were the first 3D games made by these particular members of KCEK. You can find flaws, sure, but given the hardware limitations and the pressure of the deadlines, I am continually amazed that they more or less captured Dracula's castle in 3D in their first attempt at it. From what interviews/articles I have read, they basically looked at the Castlevania franchise, looked at the lore that influenced its creation, and just went all-out to make Castlevania in 3D. From what I gather, it's my impression that they didn't have any doubt they were doing a faithful translation, it was just a matter of the learning curve for them to execute it.

3.) One among many of the under-appreciated aspects of the N64 games: Their stories. At the end of the the day, if the game is great, I don't need much of a story. A lone man/woman fighting Dracula does just fine if the journey is exciting. But when you give an above-average story in a solid game, it can make the experience even better (particularly for 3D games, I think). It's done in a minimalist way, too, where none of the cut-scenes get so out of hand that they dominate the game. Often they lead right into pivotal gameplay or game mechanics. These game's stories, while still relatively simple, are pretty haunting in their execution. And to get that correct right off the bat, is another impressive accomplishment. I'm amazed that these people stepped away from Castlevania.

PS: Ha-ha--I just noticed in the CV Dungeon's Features section: "Top 20 Reasons Why The N64 Castlevanias Kicked Ass" by the webmaster.

[Sinful]

So I was tempted to watch that GT Castlevania retrospective for the 3D vania games video. And man, am the only one that thinks the PS2 game look much worse the N64 games? Is this crazy thinking?

And wow, in the PS2 game when you clear all the enemies is when the door open?! Wow, this game really is in pure beat 'em up territory. Sad, sad, sad.

Oh, yeah, you really should enjoy each Castlevania and give each their due. So many of them have such great replay value, especially III. No need to rush or anything. And it's definitely good to avoid spoilers. Regardless, between some of the tricky platforming, the use of three-dimensional space for some of its puzzles, and the staggered save system where you can only save at specific spots/intervals in a level, the N64 games take some effort to figure out and master. It's a deliberate design that requires some investment. (An important part of that is knowing you can use the "R" button to center the camera if you get in a spot where you're measuring an extra precarious jump, as the first entry has more camera quirks than its follow-up. The R Button also can be used to lock onto the nearest enemy, and if you hold it, as I recall, you can perform certain side-steps while holding the analog stick in a specific direction and pushing the jump button, sort of like Richter's backflip).

Yeah, I knew about the camera thing right away. It's something I look for in 3D games ASAP + make sure I get very familiar with the camera right away. Doing this almost always eliminates camera problems for me in 3D games... Yet it's sad to hear that most people, including the Nerd (who may of done it intentionally, as he sometimes does in search for humor) never get comfortable with camera in 3D games at all. (Lol, this reminds me of a very professional Shining Force 3 playthrough where the player did a bonus live show. In it, as I watched him struggle so much with the camera made me want to slap him hardcore, even though I love the guy, as there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. Be at one with the shoulder buttons, don't be afraid to use the camera controls at all times until you don't even think about it). But yeah, this falls in the category of most people not learning how to properly play a game before doing a review. And it happens all the freaking time. Sad, sad, sad.


Oh, thanks for some of them extra moves like the slide and related moves. Had no idea about that at all.

[Archangel]

And wow, in the PS2 game when you clear all the enemies is when the door open?! Wow, this game really is in pure beat 'em up territory. Sad, sad, sad.

Wow, you don´t seem to know anything about these kind of games. It is the custom ever since the first Devil May Cry. Otherwise you could just outrun every enemy.

[Flame]

am the only one that thinks the PS2 game look much worse the N64 games? Is this crazy thinking?

as far as literally looking better?

yes, yes it is crazy.

The LoI models are far less polygonal, and more smoother and better looking than the N64 ones. same for the areas and their textures, which look more stretched out in CV64.

THAT SAID- LoI is pretty visually underwhelming for a PS2 game, and really isnt up to par with what it can do visually.

As far as looking better atmospherically- well, they both have very distinct, different atmospheres and feels. LoI follows the Ayami Kojima gothic feel, while the CV64 games have that N64/early PS1 adventure game feel while still retaining a dark castlevania atmosphere.

[thernz]

LoI is probably my favorite of the 3D games in terms of aesthetics. I don't think it's underwhelming. The enemies may be oddly shiny, and the character faces pretty atrocious, but I think it holds up in strong color and visual design in the areas. The only problem is that it repeats itself so much that their effect is lost. But there are tons of little details, the sort of thing that is even absent in something like Lords: original paintings, the hanging globes in the lab, etc. I also just find its architecture much more interesting, especially since it completely subverts its own setting and has each area represent a different time period, even if they're all from the future.

Castlevania 64 was kinda just boring. Very standard and typical. I honestly didn't find much atmosphere in it, and I can't see the fog as helping that. It was just very muddy and plain in general.

In terms of gameplay, they all under-perform. CV64 just has a weird camera, pretty clunky controls, and is pretty slow and not in a methodical way like CV1 and its kin. But in addition to that, I never found the level design that enticing. It's better than the other 3D titles, but it still feels empty at times.

Lament and Curse are pretty much worse though with their repeating box rooms. And Lords just has no sense of flow or cohesiveness, and actually repeats the stigmata of hallways and flat arenas; it's just better disguised.

[DarkPrinceAlucard]

The only thing I would give CV64 over LOI is

1.Platforming was WAY better
and
2.The horror elements where MUCH better ( I still remember being scared as hell running from the Gardener).

Other than that, I think LOI just about tops CV64 in every other aspect such as gameplay,graphics,and replay value.

[Claimh Solais]

A LOT OF THE PEOPLE HERE: "All of these games are bad, and it is most definitely IGA's fault."

Didn't Uzo say sometime back it's the director who makes the decisions and that the producer is only the "Come on guys, we can do it!" type of person?

And regardless of that above, you can't cast all of the blame onto IGA's head, when clearly there was a team of over 40 or 50 other people that had to do with the game too, ya know (as BingleGod alluded to).

I will agree though, that the IGA-era games got boring after a while. Symphony of the Night is literally the only Metroidvania I can play over and over again. The N64 titles were actually some of my favorite, and I think a remake of Legacy of Darkness would be the greatest thing ever (simply because I want Cornell's and Henry's stories on top of Reinhardt's and Carrie's.)

inb4 omg why does everybody want remakes rather than new games

[Flame]

I don't think it's underwhelming.

Underwhelming as far as a PS2 game goes, yes it is. It just doesnt utilize the PS2's full potential.

[thernz]

why would i care about that

[Sinful]

Wow, you don't seem to know anything about these kind of games. It is the custom ever since the first Devil May Cry. Otherwise you could just outrun every enemy.

It seems on of my replies for here got lost or something?... Anywho, like I'll just say it again; Yes, I don't know nothing about the PS2 games. I haven't played them yet, so how would I? I can only assume. But fear not, as I never rule games 100% until I've come very close to mastering them (I don't believe beating games once is enough to fully understand a game most of the time too). So cheer up, chums, my negativity toward these games should mean nothing without having even played them. They're just empty first impressions before even touching these games (so the worst type of impressions).

And to cheer fans of these PS2 games even more. A very close friend of mine says these are his fave vania games (though he hasn't played many of them, at least he played and beat part 3 & Bloodlines. My most fave vania games). The second PS2 game he likes much more then the first saying "It's a massive improvement!" (What do you guys think? Right or wrong?) Saying it even "Blows away SotN" (Another vania game he owned and beat... I think that's all the previous vania games he played? Maybe the first NES one too?)... And though he tells me to play these games because he thinks they're the best vania games, to me I'm very hesitant because they really don't seem like vania games at all to me (totally different and I don't yet have to mood to try something like this)... and the graphics really don't impress me... most PS2 3D graphics don't (you know, the big massive empty boxed rooms with one massive simple & flat texture map covering an entire wall... well, technically more, but you get the idea... and the only effort to put a ton of polygons on are the characters models themselves... I really hate this style beyond belief, and I see it on PS2 game the most... basically that era, starting with the Dreamcast, is the era I got out of gaming... only recently to recover again, mostly thanks to retro goodness and getting back into retro games again.

[shelverton.]

I love it when people call me an "IGA fanboy" when the truth is that I enjoy both classicvanias and IGAvanias. You don't have to choose sides, you know. But maybe I'm the only one?

[DarkPrinceAlucard]

I love it when people call me an "IGA fanboy" when the truth is that I enjoy both classicvanias and IGAvanias. You don't have to choose sides, you know. But maybe I'm the only one?

Your not the only one.

As you can see in my Game likes I actually like Super Castlevania 4.

It is actually my second favorite castlevania game of all time next to symphony.

I pretty much enjoy classicvania just as much as metroidvania and I'm a fan of both.

Its just that if you even defend IGA or his game in the slightest around here SOME people will automatically label you a "IGA fanboy".

[thernz]

And to cheer fans of these PS2 games even more. A very close friend of mine says these are his fave vania games (though he hasn't played many of them, at least he played and beat part 3 & Bloodlines. My most fave vania games). The second PS2 game he likes much more then the first saying "It's a massive improvement!" (What do you guys think? Right or wrong?) Saying it even "Blows away SotN" (Another vania game he owned and beat... I think that's all the previous vania games he played? Maybe the first NES one too?)... And though he tells me to play these games because he thinks they're the best vania games, to me I'm very hesitant because they really don't seem like vania games at all to me (totally different and I don't yet have to mood to try something like this)... and the graphics really don't impress me... most PS2 3D graphics don't (you know, the big massive empty boxed rooms with one massive simple & flat texture map covering an entire wall... well, technically more, but you get the idea... and the only effort to put a ton of polygons on are the characters models themselves... I really hate this style beyond belief, and I see it on PS2 game the most... basically that era, starting with the Dreamcast, is the era I got out of gaming... only recently to recover again, mostly thanks to retro goodness and getting back into retro games again.

The second one is a lot worse. Its level design is an exaggeration of the first. It's longer, duller, and has even less platforming. Just look at Dracula's Castle in Curse of Darkness. Basically the same hallways over and over for a dozen floors. They only swap out the textures used every few floors. The combat itself is a lot more stiff.

Though its dullness is probably the thing that makes it such a time waster. You turn into a catatonic state while playing it and somehow waste the most hours on it, grinding endlessly for the meaning of life.

[RichterB]

So I was tempted to watch that GT Castlevania retrospective for the 3D vania games video. And man, am the only one that thinks the PS2 game look much worse the N64 games? Is this crazy thinking?

And wow, in the PS2 game when you clear all the enemies is when the door open?! Wow, this game really is in pure beat 'em up territory. Sad, sad, sad.

Ahh, I didn't mean for you to watch those clips yet! Oh, well. Sorry for the spoilers... (But did you notice the N64 games went with Bloodlines' red crystals over hearts, which the Gametrailers narrator mistakenly thought was entirely new to the series?).

Anyway, I, of course, don't think you're crazy one bit. I won't say that the PS2 entries were total garbage, though, and Gametrailers did a good job of making those games look more varied in level design than they generally are. It reminds me more clearly why LoI was superior to CoD. (The first time I played LoI, I loved it; and I still admire aspects of it, though now find it pretty boring on the whole. On the other hand, CoD basically became a monotonous experience I had to force myself through). Really, it comes down to tastes, and you can like aspects of both teams' attempts.

Atmosphere: Lament of Innocence aims for the elegance of SotN, and Curse of Darkness is a muddier variation of that, while CV64 and Legacy of Darkness aim for the gritty Gothic horror feeling of Castlevania IV and Simon's Quest, IMO, with a touch of the "Industrial" feel found in some of Bloodlines.

Combat: LoI and CoD favor a frenetic combo/counter-based smack-down with lots of supplementary super powers. In nuances, LoI's combat has a smoother, more graceful flow, while CoD has a somewhat clunkier but more strategic combat system with its Pokemon-like helpers. The N64 games basically have a generic combat system (much like the series' roots) that relies completely on player interpretation. Any combos are derived from the player--such as, you can choose to slide into a skeleton, then as you're coming up, you hit him with your short sword secondary melee weapon, and finish him off with your main whip weapon. Or, mix in some sub-weapons or jumps. It's workman-like, weighed by physics more often than not.

Level Design: LoI has essentially miniature Castleroid levels linked by a central stage select hub. The levels have some occasional obstacles or minor platforming to add variety, but mostly involve trudging boxed area to boxed area, beating up foes and finding hidden power-ups. CoD truly is a boxy, super-repetitive Castleroid in 3D, but if you had it take place across the countryside, and if you stripped out 99% of any platforming. The N64 games are more like Mario 64: They're obstacle courses that feel more open. Some are based more around exploration and puzzles, others action-platforming. Variety and layering of level design is what sets the N64 games apart.

Music: Honestly, all four of these games have excellent music. The N64 games lean more toward "subtle" and "ambient," while the PS2 games are more in line with SotN.

Overall: I favor the N64 titles over the PS2 titles, as they seem like more complete "games," but would definitely rank the first PS2 game, LoI, higher than CoD, the second PS2 entry. Depending on perspective, there are only two things you might say CoD did better than LoI: 1.) It made all the areas interconnected exactly like a Castleroid for fans of that style. 2.) It had a full 3D camera. Outside of those things, while keeping solid bosses and such, it took all of the bad things from LoI's game design and exacerbated them.

Wow, you don´t seem to know anything about these kind of games. It is the custom ever since the first Devil May Cry. Otherwise you could just outrun every enemy.

This becomes a preference of 3D game design. This became a popular custom, but it doesn't mean it's right. There are ways to get around it and make things more interesting if the levels are designed more dynamically. Capcom's Maximo series proved this, and the N64 CV titles did beforehand, as well. At some point, particularly after the N64 era, it became more and more popular to design 3D games as a box that has carved corridors, rather than an open box with guiding obstacles and landmarks. The former feels like its more on rails and less organic to me.