Topic: Castlevania Gameplay and Combat Discussion

[TheouAegis]

What Namco as to do with Ergheiz? Its from Squaresoft isnt it? lol

No, Squaresoft distributed it. It was made by DreamFactory and Namco. Squaresoft didn't know how to make fighters and without Squaresoft behind it, it would have just been another generic 3D fighter in an era rife with Tekkens and Soul Caliburs and Psychic Force. Throw in Squaresoft's support and mix in a few Squaresoft characters, suddenly it's not just another Tekken with new mechanics. It's a whole new game that will draw in RPGers who like Final Fantasy VII!! It's a win-win situation! 

[Sumac]

Gameplay in CV for me, could be whatever developers desire - I don't care as long as it is good and more or less have something to do with the past mechanics.

The best gameplay in the past CV games for me is definitely SCV4. It is sad, that no one of the developers after that game was talented enough to make levels that could utilize 8-way whip.

[TheCruelAngel]

Reading through some of the later replies and thinking about it, my hypothesis for why some, like TheouAegis, aren't crazy for later iterations of the CV line lies in the "weight" of the attack.

When you whip something in classic CV, it's not super-fast but when it lands a hit you get a sense of connection and damaging the enemy. It's pretty satisfying to smack around zombies all day.

And I think this brings up why LoI's combat felt disappointing compared to CV64 or LoS (despite what detractors say). LoI's combat animation looks good, like I was actually whipping enemies, but the blows felt superficial and didn't seem like they affected the enemy all that much. Sure it looked flashy, but I was never satisfied after finishing off enemies, I felt like too much work was put into killing even low ranking enemies, with tougher ones seeming like a chore.

With LoS, even though the animations for the attacks don't attribute to a very "whip-like" assault, there still feels like a good weight behind each hit and dispatching lesser enemies is quick and fun. When bigger enemies come around, you work for it, and sometimes it feels cheap, but I never felt like "I wish I could just run around these guys and get to the next area". Some may say LoS isn't very CV-like, and I'll admit there are points that should of been more focused on (I'm looking at you platforming) but combat wise I feel took the series back into a direction I appreciate. Solid hits from my whip that make me feel like the man when I kill the creatures of the night.

But in CV64, despite the horribly flawed camera, the whip action felt good and solid. I never dreaded running into enemies because I could smack their faces off or chop them up when they're close. Seriously, I think all 3Dvanias should take a closer look at this game's combat if they want to get back to a more Classicvania feel. No super elaborate combos, just solid satisfying hits and looks like I'm actually using a whip to hit things instead of a flail with a really long chain (which the combat cross is, more or less).

Does anyone else feel similarly? I know the "solid hit" of the attacks is pretty subjective and hard to quantify, but I also think it's probably what changed the most in the CV universe and has caused a rift in our little community.  I just want us all to get along.

[Ayalaskin]

Hello TheCruelAngel;

What do you think guys think that made the zombie smashing feels enjoyable? What makes that sense of damaging the enemy? What makes a combat satisfying? Do you think its the sounds? The effects that explodes? The velocity of the attacks? The fact that the enemies die fast?

If some other guy also have some thoughts about this question I would like to hear.

I'm trying to figure out what is important to a hit feel strong and not just dumb.

I also added more information in my second post.

[Lelygax]

 Thats because the attacks are a bit more slower and when the enemies are hit they stopped their move and animation for a short second.

[e105beta]

The weightless hitting syndrome definitely started with Symphony of the Night. Aside from certain floating enemies, combat was always more akin to shredding a piece of meat than it was tenderizing it.

[TheouAegis]

The knockback of enemies was a bit of a flaw in boss fights in CV games early on, but it is an effect sorely needed in the newer games. Recent CV games feel more like King Arthur fighting the Black Knight.

CV games need to be more like 2D beat'em-ups. ... NOW THERE'S AN IDEA!!!! And the platforming can stay in as well, as that was a feature of a few beat'em-ups. It would look a little like Tecmo Knight or Capcom's D&D games.

[Lelygax]

The knockback of enemies was a bit of a flaw in boss fights in CV games early on, but it is an effect sorely needed in the newer games. Recent CV games feel more like King Arthur fighting the Black Knight.

Why? I seriously didnt understand that, maybe because I never did see Arthur fighting the Black Knight (in the "Knights of the Round" game I never did finish it, the most close thing that I saw is in Sonic and the Black Knight, but surely Belmonts dont run like that lol).

edit: I've seen it, I remember now, but only in Monty Python

CV games need to be more like 2D beat'em-ups. ... NOW THERE'S AN IDEA!!!! And the platforming can stay in as well, as that was a feature of a few beat'em-ups. It would look a little like Tecmo Knight or Capcom's D&D games.

I love D&D, arcade and sheet of papar with dices and pen too. I remember seeing a CV game made by fans on youtube, when Richter does the item crash he yells: Die monster!

[TheCruelAngel]

I've always thought a solid fighting game with proper platforming/adventuring would be sweet (and a personal dream project when I stop being lazy).

As for the hitting with weight, I think the knockback helps. It shows your hit had an effect on the enemy, they had to pause and recompose themselves before continuing their advance. It shows that you're hurting them instead of flashing a number to indicate that damage was done.

I also think sound is incredibly important. Good examples would be replacing the audio for a hit in a game with something lighter and noticing how the effect has changed. I'm trying to remember from my behind the scenes of movies, but I think smacking lettuce with a baseball bat was popular to emulate the sound of someone being hit. If that were replaced with say, the sound of a pistachio being dropped on some leather (I have no idea) it wouldn't give the same visceral impact and leave one feeling like something is missing.

Also, having things explode into fire is sweet when they die. Makes it feel like you killed them instead of them succumbing to their wounds (like a poison kill or something). Probably why, even for the detraction they get, I love doing the QTEs in LoS, I'm watching awesome deaths that I caused. Though honestly they probably could have done without the QTE's and just had the grab/interact button just begin the killing animation, IMO (though that may ruin some of the feeling of accomplishment).

[Inccubus]

maybe it's because I'm old-school, but when I press a button and my attack connects and the enemy instantly blows up is more than enough of a sense of me having delivered the killing blow myself since that's in reality what happened. It's not like I hit the enemy and then a second later they die.

[Lelygax]

maybe it's because I'm old-school, but when I press a button and my attack connects and the enemy instantly blows up is more than enough of a sense of me having delivered the killing blow myself since that's in reality what happened. It's not like I hit the enemy and then a second later they die.

You are talking about these enemies with a 10 seconds of death animation?

[Inccubus]

Doesn't matter how long the animation is as long as it starts the moment the the last hit connects.

[Lelygax]

I not remember seeing a game that differs from that, so IM with you, its almost a rule in any game. That only cant happen if the game give a good explanation (visually or by chat)

[Phoenix7786]

But in CV64, despite the horribly flawed camera, the whip action felt good and solid. I never dreaded running into enemies because I could smack their faces off or chop them up when they're close. Seriously, I think all 3Dvanias should take a closer look at this game's combat if they want to get back to a more Classicvania feel. No super elaborate combos, just solid satisfying hits and looks like I'm actually using a whip to hit things instead of a flail with a really long chain (which the combat cross is, more or less).

Does anyone else feel similarly? I know the "solid hit" of the attacks is pretty subjective and hard to quantify, but I also think it's probably what changed the most in the CV universe and has caused a rift in our little community.  I just want us all to get along.

I think agree with the "solid hit" quality that came from the NES CV games when stuff actually froze momentarily as you connected. When you swing a chain with a spiked ball at an enemy and the impact is enough to stop them in their tracks, it lends to that sense of satisfaction you mentioned. In the newer CV's, whipping stuff may as well be swinging a foam noodle at it. I'm not saying that EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY enemy should stop when you hit them, but at least give some indication of damage. Even in Aria of Sorrow (and possibly Dawn I can't remember) the large enemies like the trees were coded to step back as you attacked them, implying a sense of ferocity in your character's furious assault.

[Phoenix7786]

Crap I quoted myself by accident. Please disregard.