Topic: A Letter to All Iga-Vania Fans From a LoS Fanatic

[thernz]

Because I wanted to use the two images, the CV1 cover and LoS's Official Art (Which looks like a homage to the CV1 cover due to similar postures of their heroes and the way the whip sways towards the viewer), to illustrate that they have more similarities with each other than people seem to believe.

Does that mean Harmony of Dissonance (and Despair too I guess, heh) is the closest we have to CV1 in the POST-DRACX ERA since they both have an actual CV1 Simon sprite complete with similar physics?

[KyleVoakes]

Does that mean Harmony of Dissonance (and Despair too I guess, heh) is the closest we have to CV1 in the POST-DRACX ERA since they both have an actual CV1 Simon sprite complete with similar physics?

No, because those were nice little tidbits that they included in the game, while I only used the CV1 cover to add a more visual interpretation of my own attachment to LoS. Wouldn't CV: Dracula X Chronicles (PSP) be the closest thing we've gotten to CV1 since Rondo of Blood due to the linear stages, Belmont-with-a-whip lead role, and traditional platforming with bottomless pits? Yeah, it's a remake, but should it still count?

[Munchy]

OP, I like you already for "Suffering like G did".

For what it's worth, LoS is a game I hated at first, and gradually came to like after spending time with it. But it's kind of a misnomer to call it a 3D Classicvania. It shares three things with the classic games: a dude with a whip, mythological stuff, and linear, ruins-y stages to trek through. Otherwise, it's not much at all like the older games, and seems content to do its own thing, which is kind of jarring. It's the strict dichotomy of classicvania vs. metroidvania that put me off the game at first, because it really doesn't do either very strictly outside of a scant few cosmetic nods. When you get down to it, it's Uncharted, God of War, and a tiny bit of Shadow of the Colossus thrown in a blender. And while I do enjoy the game, I'm still waiting for a magical Metroidvania with loot-gathering elements as well as interesting and challenging level design.

That being said, I'm okay with what LoS does for the most part. I see it as "Castlevania: The Game of the Movie" (meant both as a compliment and a gentle ribbing). It isn't my favorite of the series, but it follows the tradition of Castlevania as a series not always having a single director, and I highly appreciate what it's done to bring Castlevania back into at least something of a spotlight.

[beingthehero]

You probably should have just linked the images, since randomly adding them in the middle of your text



is kind of distracting and sort of makes people look at them



instead of your text.

[KyleVoakes]

OP, I like you already for "Suffering like G did".

For what it's worth, LoS is a game I hated at first, and gradually came to like after spending time with it. But it's kind of a misnomer to call it a 3D Classicvania. It shares three things with the classic games: a dude with a whip, mythological stuff, and linear, ruins-y stages to trek through. Otherwise, it's not much at all like the older games, and seems content to do its own thing, which is kind of jarring. It's the strict dichotomy of classicvania vs. metroidvania that put me off the game at first, because it really doesn't do either very strictly outside of a scant few cosmetic nods. When you get down to it, it's Uncharted, God of War, and a tiny bit of Shadow of the Colossus thrown in a blender. And while I do enjoy the game, I'm still waiting for a magical Metroidvania with loot-gathering elements as well as interesting and challenging level design.

That being said, I'm okay with what LoS does for the most part. I see it as "Castlevania: The Game of the Movie" (meant both as a compliment and a gentle ribbing). It isn't my favorite of the series, but it follows the tradition of Castlevania as a series not always having a single director, and I highly appreciate what it's done to bring Castlevania back into at least something of a spotlight.

I'm not sure it's fair to use comparisons as a negative aspect of a game these days. You could find many similarities with anything as long as you look hard enough. Take the post above mine as the perfect example! Comparing the God Mask with an engraved face in a sword. Why not compare the Dark Crystal to using Summons in Final Fantasy? It's not very difficult. That being said, if you don't see the connections between the classic CV titles, then there's nothing I can do about it. I see them. I guess it's like a magic eye. Some people see the sailboat. Others see scooters.

You probably should have just linked the images, since randomly adding them in the middle of your text

is kind of distracting and sort of makes people look at them

instead of your text.

But a block of text is so uninteresting!

[thernz]

No, because those were nice little tidbits that they included in the game, while I only used the CV1 cover to add a more visual interpretation of my own attachment to LoS. Wouldn't CV: Dracula X Chronicles (PSP) be the closest thing we've gotten to CV1 since Rondo of Blood due to the linear stages, Belmont-with-a-whip lead role, and traditional platforming with bottomless pits? Yeah, it's a remake, but should it still count?

No, it'd be Castlevania: The Adventure Rebirth.

Rondo's design was trying to do away with bottomless pits a lot of the time to incorporate filthy exploration. It had a little magical girl as another playable character. A girl in a pink dress who attacks with birds is far more offensive than pretty boys. It had more guitars than ever before. And it had all this pop, and hardly anything orchestral. The color palette was even worse! Everything was so saturated. Look at that blue on Richter's garb. It was drenched in 90's anime.

It is the distinctively smelly father of Symphony of the Night. It's obvious to see where Symphony even got the idea to be more exploration-based. Rondo was the foundation of that curse. Without Rondo, Castlevania probably would have stayed the same, delicate manflower, whispering in the winds, "Let me show you my Conan-Dracula fan-fiction."

REST IN PEACE, CASTLEVANIA 1986-1993

[beingthehero]

But Bloodlines was released in 1994, nyaro~n

[beingthehero]

Also my first Castlevania was CV2 and I'm totally chill with everything past 1997, so I agree with uzo in that you are acting a tad melodramatic.

[Sindra]

Haha...oh thernz....


beingthehero: I don't believe he was being melodramatic - just as I said, his opinions in word-form is very emotionally charged, as would any of ours be if we were trying to defend something we really liked from backlash.

You know, I really hated it when the terms "IGAvania' and "Coxvania" came about. Classicvania, Metroidvania and Modernvania work just fine to define the eras the franchise has traversed through. The former two just automatically set the stage for arguments instead of constructive discussion.

[KyleVoakes]

No, it'd be Castlevania: The Adventure Rebirth.

Rondo's design was trying to do away with bottomless pits a lot of the time to incorporate filthy exploration. It had a little magical girl as another playable character. A girl in a pink dress who attacks with birds is far more offensive than pretty boys. It had more guitars than ever before. And it had all this pop, and hardly anything orchestral. The color palette was even worse! Everything was so saturated. Look at that blue on Richter's garb. It was drenched in 90's anime.

It is the distinctively smelly father of Symphony of the Night. It's obvious to see where Symphony even got the idea to be more exploration-based. Rondo was the foundation of that curse. Without Rondo, Castlevania probably would have stayed the same, delicate manflower, whispering in the winds, "Let me show you my Conan-Dracula fan-fiction."

REST IN PEACE, CASTLEVANIA 1986-1993

Oh, darn. I forgot about that! Aww, thanks. I feel so embarrassed now.    As for the rest of your post. Egh..... yeah. The original Rondo of Blood does have the "honor" of being the first CV game with anime inspired characters, but I can't say it's the first CV game that had a main playable character who wasn't a Belmont. CV3 did that; but at least RoB's stages were not like Metroid. It was more like CV3, only you really couldn't decide which path to take by choice. I dunno.

Also my first Castlevania was CV2 and I'm totally chill with everything past 1997, so I agree with uzo in that you are acting a tad melodramatic.

Well, I actually do feel a bit of sentimental attachment to Lords of Shadow. I'll admit to being biased towards it, and that's mostly because LoS dropped the anime inspirations and awful character designs, and instead focused more on the environments and presentation. I know it's a bit rough to believe, but I actually do have some feelings for the damn game. That doesn't mean I'm ignorant to a couple flaws, like the music not being properly looped during combat sequences, and the grunting sounds of Gabriel being a bit too grouchy. I still love the game though, despite the flaws.

Yeah, I do seem to be using a lot of hyperbole, I'll give you that. 

[KaZudra]

I do find it funny that he calls it the 'IGA' timeline specifically, since games in the timeline existed before IGA came along.

Legends was Canon, leaving Worlds of possibilities
the N64 titles are only canon because they kissed ass to IGA despite 1 being completely horrible (Cv64)

[Sindra]

the N64 titles are only canon because they kissed ass to IGA despite 1 being completely horrible (Cv64)

Question:

How, exactly, does a game kiss-ass? Please, enlighten me as to how you came about that piece of info.

[Kale]

Legends was Canon, leaving Worlds of possibilities
the N64 titles are only canon because they kissed ass to IGA despite 1 being completely horrible (Cv64)

What? When was Legend canon?

[thernz]

I think Nagumo or someone mentioned that it was probably intended as canon from the start, but then IGA felt offended by it and kicked it down a pit. Probably because it undermined CVIII or seemed to be riding off of SoTN. Or because Sonia was a woman.

It makes sense for it to have been intended for canon, considering it has Alucard and foreshadows Trevor. CV64 and CoTM pretty much make no direct references to the past games. There's also a quip by Dracula that basically assumes Rondo and SoTN never happened. But then again, Dracula is kinda an idiot.

[Gaawa-chan]

I do not hate LoS.  But I don't like it, either.  I like many of the classic and metroid installments.

It's obvious to see where Symphony even got the idea to be more exploration-based. Rondo was the foundation of that curse.

Vampire Killer/Simon's Quest are the roots of the exploration-based 'vanias, not Rondo.  And Rondo's layout was obviously based off of Dracula's Curse, what with the branching pathways.

Rondo really wasn't that far a stretch from the series appearance-wise; look at Castlevania's bright color scheme, music, monster choices, and credits.  Look at the old game manuals.  Look at the wall meat, whipping candles to get hearts used as ammo, using a cross as a boomerang...


I'm gonna spoiler tag this response to the opening post because it's long:

(click to show/hide)

1. Almost all of your initial complaints lodged against the metroidvanias (and Rondo, for that matter) revolved around character design.  "Belmonts aren't the main characters all the time, and when they are there they don't look the way I want them to!"  But Lords of Shadow doesn't look like the classicvanias either; it's more like modern Forgotten Realms or Jackson's Lord of the Rings art, particularly as far as monster design goes.  And don't get me started on censor-cloud Satan. *rolls eyes*


2. I'd argue that the only point at which LoS returned to the 'gothic design' was within Bernhard Castle.  I'm not that bothered by it though because it is obvious why they did it that way. However...
The series didn't really have any music resembling anything even remotely 'orchestral' until the SNES/Genesis era and even that is pushing it; it always had catchy tunes that were some mix of techno/rock/jazz/baroque and other styles, the mingling of which resulted in a powerful and unique atmosphere, and to suggest that Shadow's OST is somehow truer to the older games like you did in your opening post is absurd.  It did NOT have music in line with the classicvanias AT ALL.  Furthermore, staples of the series like hearts, wall meat, etc... were taken out and in their place was crap like the chupacabras.  All of these changes resulted in a fundamentally different atmosphere.

3. Only people ignorant of the series would try to argue that the inclusion of locations outside of a castle made it less of a Castlevania game and I find the implication that most metroidvania fans think that to be a little far-fetched.  It doesn't help that multiple metroidvanias have places that take place outside the demon castle.

4. I hate the complete and utter absence of multiple staples of the series that have been in Castlevania since the first game in the series was released, and then see people saying that LoS is 'the Castlevania they grew up with.'  I hate that the LoS-verse story-line is obviously comprised of re-hashed plotlines and mushed-together characters from the old canon (mostly the metroidvanias) and then fans of LoS whine about the old canon's story and characters and LoS' creators belittle previous installments in every other article I read.  I hate that people claim that LoS is more like the classicvania games when it plays far more like the steroid-addicted love-child of Lament of Innocence and Legacy of Darkness, and contains metroidvania-esque content like fairies, monster steeds, puzzles, lame platforming, and I could go on and on...
I hate when LoS fans complain that LoI's motivation of having a 'personal grudge' against Dracula is insufficient when the same exact argument could be made against LoS because the motivations are incredibly similar. But most of all I hate that all of the changes made in LoS culminated in a fundamental alteration of the atmosphere of the series.  I am hoping that Mirror of Fate will fix that at least to an extent.


Now I will say that I wish more metroidvanias had focused on the Belmonts and had better level design, and that the original canon could REALLY benefit from being completely re-written and re-released in some sort of ultimate collection to iron out all the weird stuff within, but to say that you're 'betrayed' when the overall story is wonky and whenever whip-wielding Belmont isn't the main character of a series with well over 20 games that span over 1000 years that has a psychotic vampire that wants to kill everyone that were produced over 25 years and handled by multiple people during those years and you don't expect anyone outside of the Belmonts to take note-worthy initiative against said psychotic vampire in all that time is just... expecting too much.