Topic: A Letter to All Iga-Vania Fans From a LoS Fanatic

[DragonSlayr81]

Huh. It's pretty clear that Dracula's head gets whipped off.
Cox is an odd one.

It's also obvious what the guidebook represents. It's not literal. Dracula's pulling off his human face like a mask, exposing the demon inside. Pretty self-explanatory, there's more than meets the eye, and Dracula's not JUST some vampire, but a monsterous demon.

[X]

I remember in a video interview a couple years ago how Cox was saying he always thought Dracula wore a mask in CV1, & Simon was whipping it off.

I guess he has yet to recognize the difference between a mask and a head. And in terms of masks being a part of CV since the beginning, the only mask ever in CV was Vampira; Carmilla's mask.

[gortaithe]

i agreed with everything you said, kyle. i too am a huge CLOS fan, and a huge fan of the classics. i enjoyed the hell out of LOI and COD... but with CLOS, it is something different, and more enthralling than i could put into words. but you come very close with your eloquent 'wall o'words'. your fandom of LOS rivals my own. had i the time sir!

[Chernabogue]

I guess he has yet to recognize the difference between a mask and a head. And in terms of masks being a part of CV since the beginning, the only mask ever in CV was Vampira; Carmilla's mask.

Well, I must admit it could be considered as a mask by people, as Dracula reveals his true form after getting his head/mask whipped out.

But yeah, in traditional CV's, mask = Carmilla.

[GuyStarwind]

In the Dracula fight in CV1 his face appears first right? Well, I always thought it was to show the player where to attack, because up to this point you just whip everything and anywhere you wanted. I never thought of it as a mask but rather just a hint.

[DragonSlayr81]

Well, I must admit it could be considered as a mask by people, as Dracula reveals his true form after getting his head/mask whipped out.

But yeah, in traditional CV's, mask = Carmilla.

Yes, but what could be considered/believed is not always right, it's a mistake nonetheless. A lot of people believed when Walter said "You betrayed me!", he was talking to Death, but he was really talking to Mathias. It's the equivalent of mishearing orders. Just because you think your superior said one thing when they said something else doesn't mean what you THINK it was is right.

[Foffy]

You probably should have just linked the images, since randomly adding them in the middle of your text



is kind of distracting and sort of makes people look at them



instead of your text.

Heh, you know for a series that's been criticized for using content, at least MercurySteam got down that staple of Castlevania by reusing something from one of their previous games.

Interesting how the game the sword comes from (Severance: Blade of Darkness) seems very similar to Lords in some art direction and music. Granted, it lacks Belmonts, whips, and is more of an RPG, but looking at some footage and you can see it looks like some early seeds that blossomed into what they'd later create.

[RavenZX13]

Kyle, personally, I've been playing Castlevania since my early days as a gamer, being Vampire Killer on MSX my 1st castlevania. I've seen how the series evolved from a side scroller, to a rpg "metroidvania". I have a love for both types of Castlevanias. I've played most of the CVs, save for judgement, haunted castle, that cv arcade(wish they import it to the states). I honestly did give LoS a try. From beginning to end. My personal opinion, I found nothing that made me feel like it's a CV, or a classic CV at that. Sure, there's elements of CV in the game. But it didn't feel like CV to me, not once. The atmosphere, the music (a definite problem for me), that DBZ moment that occured at the end of the game, are just a few things I point out. As a game, it's alright. As a CV, it's terrible in my opinion. The game left me very skeptical on the LoS series.

To this day, I'm still very indecisive in the next two installments to the LoS series. My biggest gripe on MoF, they used that same gimmick on turning another Belmont onto a vampire. I think it's common knowledge by now, since new screenshots more or less confirm it, but Trevor becomes Alucard. I can't seem to explain it why in words, but it bothers me greatly. I really don't know why. I rather it didn't occur, since a Belmont turning into a vampire, let alone Dracula, already happened once. That idea irked me a bit throughout LoS already.

I don't honestly know if I want to try MoF at this point. I'm stuck in a pond with now oar to row the boat on this.

[Flame]

To be fair, while it seems really likely, Trevorcard isnt exactly confirmed. And even if it is, Vampire is a bit sketchy. He casts a reflection.

We cant be sure just WHO or WHAT he is yet... I mean, im betting on Trevor being revived as some sort of undead almost-but-not-quite vampire being. Likely by Zobek, or maybe the mirror of Fate, or the lost soul who most likely has to do with the mirror, and 'fate'. ("It seems fate has given me a second chance..." etc etc)

[RavenZX13]

take a look at trevorcard on those new screenshots. the guy's outfit is too similar to regular  trevor. he even holds the combat cross. that already indicates a more likely scenario of tevor = alucard.

[Havatchu]

To be fair, while it seems really likely, Trevorcard isnt exactly confirmed. And even if it is, Vampire is a bit sketchy. He casts a reflection.

But Alucard is originally half human, so it is plausible that he could have a reflection. Has there been any scenario where Alucard has been in front of a mirror so that we can speculate on that more?

[whitedragon_nall]

But Alucard is originally half human, so it is plausible that he could have a reflection. Has there been any scenario where Alucard has been in front of a mirror so that we can speculate on that more?

He doesn't have a reflection in DoS when he passes by one. Not sure about SotN. Still though, different timeline...different myth.

[Sindra]

If you want to go Vampire Hunter D on this theory....dhampirs have transparent reflections.


As good as any logic to me.

[Havatchu]

Someone have a mod delete this post, I should have just copy/pasted what I needed and gone back to the thread again.

[Havatchu]

Let's all be real here, what was the last current gen videogame that had dynamic action platforming? Mirroshade or whatever that one game was with the asian freerunner with the tat on her face? Platformers are not the genre of choice for this gen, especially not action/adventure games, all these gripes I'm hearing about how this game isn't Castlevania seem to me that people want to hear remastered versions of the old tunes (which are dated by the way, masterful but would probably would not fit in a current gen game, at least one that looks as "realistic" as LoS or at least takes itself as seriously.)

That and the fact that you don't platform enough. Well, to be honest, platforming normally sucks unless it's in a sidescroller, because with a sidescroller it is much easier to know how and where exactly to land.

There are 8  ways to fuck up when platforming in 3D because there are 6 more directions to go when you jump, while there basically only two ways of fucking up in a sidescroller when speaking about things from a purely directional standpoint.

This being said, why in the world would 3D games encourage platforming when it's more likely to frustate the player and alienate the audience in general?

Personally, I love Castlevania because of the themes and stories involved, the gameplay is just the frame, which is in turn determined by the times, that holds the center of the game, the IP.

I guess I don't see it the way you guys do, but I get what you're coming from, perfect examples being Mega Man Classic and the X series compared to Battle Network and Starforce. The difference here though is the franchise went from action/adventure sidescroller to RPG. This is an example of new being bad. The Legends series however, is a perfect example of new being good, sans Legends 3 due to the bullshit surrounding it.

2.) No enemies like Medusa heads, Bone Pillars, or bone-throwing Skeletons that hinder platforming and make it strategic. (AKA Castlevania 101).

Herein lies the problem with that, those enemies are antiquated and even laughable today.

Those enemies would serve no purpose in a 3D Castlevania, at least in their traditional forms. You could get them to act the same, yeah, but how would that mesh with a 3D action game?

Those enemies were essentially born from and for sidescrollers, they impede the way and make jumping across chasm frustrating, but there aren't really any times where you have to jump chasms with enemies in LoS are there?

But it's not.

And my avatar is fan-art based off of old-school Richter designs, which in tandem with my signature probably demonstrates my attitude towards the series. Regardless, though, I'm not the one making absolute claims describing specific framework in which Castlevania should advance, and needs to advance, to be considered authentically Castlevania in design.

I'm not going to get in a big drawn out debate where I debate each and every one of your points, because factually, you're 100% correct. LoS indeed focuses more on combat, and LoD definitely focuses more on platforming. I respect the amount of time and thought you have put into the subject. However, I do disagree with your analysis because of the conclusions that you draw, and do want to note a few key things.

For example, I don't believe a fully 3D camera is at all a requirement to maintain the old-school Castlevania feel in a 3D game. If anything it's a hindrance. The Classicvanias focused on designed, obstacle course style gameplay, in which, by design, there were a set number of optimal ways to approach a situation, and the skill came from executing one of these few methods. A 3D environment, however, adds a whole new level of complexity where certain gameplay elements can no longer function the way they would have in a 2D environment, no matter how intuitive the design, because you've added an exponentially larger amount of ways to come at the challenge. Take Medusa heads. There is no way to effectively replicate the original challenge of the medusa heads in 3D, since a sin/cos brought into a 3D plane becomes a wholly different beast, and even with the added complexity remains a much more easily conquerable one.

Like this:


What was one of the most challenging, engaging obstacles in 2D Castlevanias becomes incomprehensible in 3D. To surmount this, most of the enemies in CV64-LoD followed the AI of "lock on to the main hero and run towards him", which isn't exactly reminiscent of 2D Castlevania, and most of the fighting took place in flat, open areas where players could focus on aiming their hits. Cornell was even given a nice auto-aim long range attack. Additionally, the platforming was largely devoid of intelligent life. Any enemy placement that did coincide with platforming, save for a select few situations, gave you ample time to arrive at your jumping destination BEFORE dealing with the enemy, or put you in a position to kill it before attempting a jump of any kind.

This made the games very slow, with lots of downtime, but necessarily slow. 3D platforming requires extra thought and planning, at least when not reverted to a 2D view (effectively killing the point) and interfering with that focus creates situations that tend to be more frustrating than rewarding. I encourage you to pull up a let's play of CV:LoD, or something of the like, because a lot of things you criticize CV:LoS for having, the N64 games actually had a lot of.

I don't think MercurySteam's vision of Castlevania is an invalid evolution. I simply think it takes the Classicvania focus on whip swinging to heart, rather than the focus on jumping like LoD did. It replaced the rhythm of jumping with the rhythm of of combat. It's different, sure, and I'm hoping MercurySteam adds more platforming ala the Clocktower to MoF and LoS2, but LoI came up with a solid system, and God of War made it even better. IMO, LoS is even better than that, for reasons I can list if you want me to, but it would be stupid for future developers to ignore these advancements, and fumble around in the dark just so that they can be different. Not everything needs to forge a new path, and Castlevania hasn't done so in awhile.

What this guy has been saying, he even has fancy diagrams to back it up. 

But seriously, this. ^

Edit: I'm quite surprised no one has posted in here lately.