Topic: Save your criticism

[Gunlord]

Ahasverus, how did you know I was hairy?

That said, a game can sell like hotcakes and still receive a lot of criticism...I haven't played it through yet myself, though. Perhaps I should one of these days...

[uzo]

3D and 2D gameplay definitely need differences in their OST (generalizing in the case where a series goes from 2D to 3D). It's not always an intense or an obvious transformation, but it holds true.

Most of it has to do with the gameplay focus and pacing rather than the graphical style. As such, 3D games tend to be a little slower to their 2D counterparts. They also tend to have a different focus, since the third dimension adds a whole new view to things. As a result OST's tend to be more atmospheric, slower paced, and spacial. The amount of this varies on how much slower the gameplay feels than it's 2D counterpart.

Take the Megaman X series for example. I'll be using two sets of exmaples from music in Megaman X4 & X5, as 2D titles, and Megaman X7, a 3D title.

Megaman X5's Intro Stage with the character Zero
Megaman X5 - Intro Stage (Zero)

Megaman X7's Intro Stage with the character Zero
Megaman X7 - Central Highway (Zero's Opening Stage)

Notice how the X5 theme is faster paced, to match the faster gameplay. X7's on the other hand feels 'wider' more spacious and slower paced. This is to accompany the additional dimension, and slower gameplay speed.

Here is another example for the two airplane themed levels.

Megaman X4's airplane themed level
Let's Listen: Mega Man X4 - Storm Owl Stage (Extended)

Megaman X7's airplane themed level
Mega Man X7: Wind Crowrang's Stage

You can see the same disparity in the speed and feeling of the songs. This is all intentional to fit the changed gameplay. However the spirit of Megaman X's music is not lost in the transition. It feels a little different, but the soul and style remains remarkably intact. Now to apply this to Castlevania...

I don't think Castlevania Lords of Shadow made the transition properly. In fact, Lords of Shadow's music, even if you remove the Castlevania connection, still does not fit the game well. There are MANY instances where the music pacing and feel are at odds with the action pace.

This dissonance is due to two factors. Gameplay pacing is not consistent, and music, within single tracks, does not have a consistent pacing or feel. This can lead to many instances where im running and jumping on platforms with very soft and slow music, and I'm slowly ledge climbing to music that sounds like the gates of mordor have opened.

It is very important to note that the music of Lords of Shadow is not fit for a video game, much less a Castlevania video game. It was made with a movie experience in mind. It does not fit the medium of video game. It fits the medium of movie. They are NOT interchangeable at all.

The best thing they could have done was to make tracks that found an acceptable middle ground between the ledge climbing pace, and the running around jumping pace. Given that this is a Castlevania game, the margin of error is VERY wide. We've been able to enjoy a nice range of paced pieces, while still fitting the atmosphere mainly due to the gothic nature of the series.

There is no excuse for the lackluster and misplaced music in Lords of Shadow. A good composer writes music for the medium of application. Oscar Araujo simply did not want to compose game music choosing instead to force a movie score into the game, or is completely incapable of identifying and delivering what kind of music was required for this medium.

[Nagumo]

Ten hairy guys arguing the same things on a messageboard for 5(!) years versus 2Million+ Sales is not what i'd call lots of criticism.

You're forgetting tons of reviews, the offical Facebook page, and other forums like Neogaf. Despite the sales, LoS has been on of the most controversial reboots I've ever seen.     

[Belmontoya]

Doctomario is right.

[crisis]

Technically there is no "right" or "wrong" answer, it's all everybody's individual opinion. "I agree with DoctaMario" would be a more accurate statement 

That said, I agree with uzo. The OST of Lords seemed very disjointed at times, and just wasn't very exciting in areas where it should have been. There are a few good tracks, but at the same time, there are also tracks that are out of place & alien for the Castlevania series known for it's catchy tunes & quirky tracks.

But like I said, Belmont's Theme is still an awesome piece 

[Kingshango]

Anything I have to say about the game has already been said since 2009 (that's a long ass time people), so I have nothing else to say other than im glad you enjoyed the game OP.

Speaking on music, I REALLY want that piano piece from the E3 trailer, I sounded hauntingly good and it sounded like something I'd here in an old Castlevania game.

[Inccubus]

OK. I'm one of those that doesn't much like the LoS OST... at all. Belmont's Theme and the Waterfall are the only passable songs because they are the least Hollywood-ized. And that is my problem with the soundtrack. They hired a Movie composer to make a movie score for a video game and it glaringly sounds like it.

The N64 game? They sound nothing like a Hollywood score. The music is much more atmospheric than the rest of the series, but that only bothered me a bit at first. At least it all still had a Gothic/Baroque feel for the most part. The reason I don't feel that LoS's music "isn't Castlevania" is because it sounds like a fantasy movie score. And that does not match with the Castlevania series as I have experienced it over the years.

This is my problem with the whole reboot. Intentions aside, what they did was reboot Dracula's story and sorta worked some of Castlevania into it. This is what makes the whole LoS sub-series feel more like Legacy of Kain to me. Castlevania was a series that borrowed horror movie monsters and made that into a series of games working Dracula's story into it. I don't know about the rest of you but that seems like a fundamental difference right there.

So, using those Megaman examples you'll notice that the overall style of the songs is consistent in all the tracks presented, so the individual pacing of any particular song especially if taken into consideration with the game play that goes with them isn't a problem. They are all techie/rock sounding tracks which is what that sub-series has always had. In comparison the score in LoS is fundamentally different from the rest of the series and I personally don't like it.

The amount of criticism for this sub-series compared to the number units sold is pretty much a pointless comparison. The gaming industry has many examples of games that were a commercial success but have bellow average review scores or are even openly disliked by fans. So a bunch of dudebros shelled out money for LoS over the span of two console releases. Yay. That's exactly the demographic this game was made for. It wasn't made for the fans of the series despite whatever spin the producer and director might want to offhandedly put on it.

Those are my two cents.

[DragonSlayr81]

I don't think one should save their criticism. Just because a title does well doesn't mean they are automatically immune to it. Not everybody is going to like EVERYTHING and that's something one should understand. Of course, not all criticism is bad. There's constructive critcism and just plain ranting. Nothing is flawless, and constructive critcism SHOULD be taken into account.

That being said, I'm surprised this hasn't turned into a flame war by now. The title first post is what I'd normally brand as "flamebait". Nice to see so many cool headed people here!

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

I still hum my CV64/LoD memorable tunes, like the Castle Center, Silent Madness (Villa), and Conversation (Renon) music.
I cannot for the life of me recall any catchy hummable tunes from LoS.

I think the music just isn't memorable enough, which has become a staple of the series, as every game has had their share of catchy tunes, so by now it's something that goes hand-in-hand with the title:

Castlevania 1: Castle Intro, Vampire Killer
Castlevania 2: Bloody Tears, Dwelling of Doom
Haunted Castle: Cross Your Heart, Don't Wait Until Night
Castlevania 3: Beginning, Aquarius
Castlevania 4: Theme of Simon, Chandeliers
Bloodlines: Reincarnated Soul, Iron Blue Intention
Rondo/DraculaXX: Opposing Bloodlines, Dance of Illusions
Symphony of the Night: Dracula's Castle, Lost Painting
Adventure: Battle of the Holy, Darkness
Belmont's Revenge: New Messiah, Praying Hands
Legends: Banquet of Spirits, Endless Motion
Adventure Rebirth: n/a (uses tunes from older games)
Chronicles: Moon Fight, Tower of Dolls
64/LoD: Castle Center, Silent Madness
CotM: Awake, Fate to Despair
OoS: Daring Assault, Resting Again
PoR: Invitation of a Crazed Moon, The Gears Go Awry
OoE: An Empty Tome, Rhapsody of the Forsaken
AoS: Ruined Castle Corridor, Top Floor
HoD: Successor of Fate, Chapel of Dissonance
LoI: Theme of Leon Belmont, Anti-Soul Mysteries Lab
CoD: Abandoned Castle, Legendary Belmont
Resurrection: Snake Food, Torture (though the cartoon tracks are more memorable, funny enough)
Judgment: Darkness of Fear, Decisive Battle (both related to Aeon's Theme)

And with LoS we have... I guess... Waterfalls of Agharta and... Belmont theme?  Neither of which is particularly hummable/catchy (and one is arguably a remaster/remake of a CV4 tune).  MoF has... I can't think of any in particular, either (and I own both of these games).

Even the more mediocre games prior to LoS have had great soundtracks.  LoS's soundtrack feels shoehorned.  It's a good soundtrack on its own, but doesn't fit quite so well with established music tradition.

[crisis]

And with LoS we have... I guess... Waterfalls of Agharta and... Belmont theme?  Neither of which is particularly hummable/catchy (and one is arguably a remaster/remake of a CV4 tune).  MoF has... I can't think of any in particular, either (and I own both of these games).

Well at least they gave us this (which was more of a "coxtease," get it?)

Vampire Killer (Music Box) - Castlevania Lords of Shadow BEST QUALITY + MP3


Belmont's Theme is great, although it sounds like it would've been better used in The Dark Knight Trilogy due to it's epicness

Castlevania Lords of Shadow Music - Belmont's Theme


Then there's The Den from Mirror of Fate, which starts off good, but it's just too short & Araujo does nothing with it

Castlevania Lords of Shadow ~ Mirror of Fate (Soundtrack): The Den


We need more tracks like this (the 8-bit versions sound better imo)

Bloodrayne: Betrayal OST - Poisoned Halls
Bloodrayne: Betrayal OST - Peaceful Moon

[Pfil]

Yes, totally! All the time while playing Bloodrayne: Deliverance I was thinking "this should be a Castlevania soundtrack!".
If CV doesn't return to Konami I wish Jake Kaufman is involved with the next soundtrack. He is a confessed CV fan and a great composer who understands what CV music is about.

Some people seems to forget that there are also many girls who enjoy CV, and who do not enjoy LoS.
I gave a chance to both games, I really wanted to like them, and they gave me almost nothing back in return. Pretty much everything that I hoped to find wasn't there. And music is to blame mainly (but not only), because with good CV music I can almost forget about everything else (that's one of the main reasons I can play Judgment and Harmony of Despair and really enjoy them, and that's one of the main reasons I don't see the Pachislots as complete wastes of resources, because if nothing else, at least they give me new CV music to listen to).
Also, IIRC it was stated that they were 1 million copies sent from Konami, not 1 million really sold, not counting the returned copies which are now everywhere as used games. And the reviews from everywhere were good for LoS (but not better than previous games) and terrible for MoF (the worst Meta-score on the series except for Judgment and HD, and the worst individual review; also the worst score for a portable CV), and many of the gamers who love LoS are people who never played CV before in their lives and who (of course) are not in this forum.
If anything, the opinions of the Dungeon should serve as a sample of the opinions of the all-time life-long CV fans.
Not that Konami would care about it, but shouldn't be dismissed as a bunch of guys in a forum vs. 1 million legitimate opinions.
I'm pretty sure most of the people on the Dungeon would rather play The Lecarde Chronicles everyday instead of Lords of Shadow.

Also, I completely agree with Inccubus.
And Jorge adds his word to the same point of view.

Castlevania 64 was atmospheric, but it felt like Castlevania music, because it is composed on baroque and gothic foundations. Chord progressions are similar to many other CV games, and that's what should never be changed. That is what gives Megaman different soundtracks that unique feel. If you change chord progressions, arrangements, instrumentations and take out all melody, how can any number of new tunes resemble its previous forms of composition?
I said this before. Araujo's compositions, whether for LoS or for any other game/movie he composed, is boring, completely generic fantasy movie soundtrack, not related to Castlevania at all except for a few notes he took from old games and used for a while, like Agharta Waterfalls or the Vampire Killer remix, which are exactly what's already been said here.

And LoS music isn't all the time non-intrusive. I wish it was.
Every time an enemy appears the music hits my ears with a drill with nonsensical battle music that sounds like modern action movies scores like Transformers 3 or Battleship, and in Mirror of Fate this was more exaggerated even, because the ambience was more ambience-like and the battle noise was super noisy.

[X]

I won't sugar-coat this cause I can't. What disappointed me about the soundtrack was the lack there-of. The OST CD had a lot of music yet throughout the game I was only hearing maybe a fraction of the total songs featured in the OST. Was the rest of the OST only available after I beat the game the first time? And the worst part was during the confrontational segments. The battle music would start up, play through and then end abruptly and start over again, without any smooth transition like in prior games. It came off as mediocre, rushed, and I thought it was very unprofessional for someone who's supposed to be a professional.

[DoctaMario]

A lot of what I'm hearing here is "Well, this is how they did it in the past games so that's how they should do it now."

The whole point of LoS' soundtrack was to give the game more of a cinematic feel. 90% of games now are basically trying to be movies for better or worse, and as such, they emulate the vibe of how a movie would tell the story they're trying to tell. I think a lot of you guys are really missing the point. I actually found LoS' soundtrack to be very beautiful and melodic.

If I'm being honest, the Sorrow games had pretty forgettable soundtracks, as did OoE. None of those games really felt terribly Castlevania in terms of soundtrack where I'm concerned.

[crisis]

i love this track, very creepy & pretty much embodies the essence of the terrors within Dracula's Castle

Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia OST - Stones Hold a Grudge


this one is a great "must trek forward, leave my fears behind" theme

Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia OST - Emerald Mist


i also love this track (the piano arrangement is excellent as well)

Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia OST - Wandering the Crystal Blue


this one gives the feeling of being lost in the labyrinth of Akumajo Dracula, not knowing what's coming next

Castlevania Order of Ecclesia OST - 206 - Malak's Labyrinth

[Ahasverus]

^ Wandering the crystal blue is, I think, the best piece of Music that has ever come from Castlevania, ever.

Edit: Arranged, that is.
Castevania: Order of Ecclesia ost 51- Wandering the Crystal Blue (Arranged version)

That being said, it seems that some people here just like "minor chords" because I don't find most of the late Yamane soundtracks (with exceptions of course) more hummable than LoS at all, e.g. that lastsong crisis posted, she became pretty atmospheric, and that's totally fine.

I hope Oscar goes a little more barroque though, those fifth and third in-measure changes are missed!