Topic: Headcanon idea: Carmilla plotted Lisa's death

[Nagumo]

I've never realized this before but Judgment has some interesting implications about Carmilla's role in the overall story-line, whether intentional or not. We learn in Sypha's storyline that Carmilla is involved in a plot to make scapegoats out of witches, and in turn, have them executed by ordinary people. Later on in Sypha's ending sequence it's said:

Sypha Belnades returned to battle as a hunter for the Church.
Years later, a powerful vampire appeared calling himself Dracula. The Church
wasted no time in arranging a hunting party.
Sypha would travel to a land well known for its fear of witches. Only a few
months earlier, a young woman had been killed there on suspicion of witchcraft.
To protect herself, Sypha decided she would enter the battle in disguise, as a
man...     

The young woman mentioned here is implied to be Lisa. So at the very least, Carmilla seems to have unknowingly caused Dracula to lose his wife. But what if it was intentional?

Alucard calls Carmilla "Dracula's plaything" at some point, which implies that a) she is or was at some point Dracula's mistress and b) Alucard knows about this. Now, Alucard and Carmilla never interact in any of the games, meaning Alucard learned about this off-screen. This makes it possible he learned about this during the pre-CV3 era. So what if Carmilla used to be Dracula's primary lover but got downgraded when he took Lisa, a "filthy human", as his wife?  Surely that must cause some tension. We know at this time Dracula was already a bit of an asshole who impaled people, so it might be in-character for him to have a vampire harem going on, even while married to Lisa. It could also explain why in the radio drama Dracula and Alucard's relationship is implied to be somewhat cold, even before Alucard's betrayal (when Lyudmil knocks on the door to Alucard's room, he says something like: "Is that you old man?")

Perhaps a bit cliche but I think it's a fun idea.     

[X]

It's an interesting concept however I don't think it would work well. I'd personally take anything from Judgement with a grain of salt. Also here's the one fact that throws Judgement's take on Carmilla right out the window; She a Lesbian first and foremost. No way would she even remotely be Dracula's plaything in any way. And from what I've gathered about her she wasn't around when Lisa was executed (as in she didn't exist yet). She was born Mircalla Karnstein Around 1680. But I do find this fact interesting; She's in CVII which takes place in 1698. This would make her roughly 18 years old by that time frame and she would have to have become a vampire shortly before CVII took place.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

It's an interesting concept however I don't think it would work well. I'd personally take anything from Judgement with a grain of salt. Also here's the one fact that throws Judgement's take on Carmilla right out the window; She a Lesbian first and foremost. No way would she even remotely be Dracula's plaything in any way. And from what I've gathered about her she wasn't around when Lisa was executed (as in she didn't exist yet). She was born Mircalla Karnstein Around 1680. But I do find this fact interesting; She's in CVII which takes place in 1698. This would make her roughly 18 years old by that time frame and she would have to have become a vampire shortly before CVII took place.

Sheridan LeFanu's Carmilla from the novella need not be Castlevania's Carmilla.

[X]

Jorge@ Fair enough.

But personally it just wouldn't be Carmilla if it wasn't 'the' Carmilla.

[SecretWeapon]

"Man or woman, can no one satisfy me?" - Carmilla in Judgement.

In any case, the 4 times Carmilla had a talking role in Castlevania, she was devoted to Dracula at the very least, if not infactuated or in-love with him. It's funny because a few days ago i made a reddit threat wondering if CV Ressurection Countess was supposed to be her given her position of "Dracula's lover". My main point of dissent against the theory is that if true, Drac would be Alucard/Succubus level of pissed at her which would probably get her permadead and out of RoB.

Personally i DON'T think we should take anything from with a pinch of salt. Mostly because for better or worse, it adds a quite large amount of characterization to the cast members.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Jorge@ Fair enough.

But personally it just wouldn't be Carmilla if it wasn't 'the' Carmilla.

I mean... not even Castlevania's Dracula is THE Dracula, so... ?

[Lumi Kløvstad]

It's an interesting concept however I don't think it would work well. I'd personally take anything from Judgement with a grain of salt. Also here's the one fact that throws Judgement's take on Carmilla right out the window; She a Lesbian first and foremost. No way would she even remotely be Dracula's plaything in any way. And from what I've gathered about her she wasn't around when Lisa was executed (as in she didn't exist yet). She was born Mircalla Karnstein Around 1680. But I do find this fact interesting; She's in CVII which takes place in 1698. This would make her roughly 18 years old by that time frame and she would have to have become a vampire shortly before CVII took place.

Interestingly, the original novella paints the image of Carmilla as a young teenage girl -- Laura notes that Carmilla doesn't seem to be much older than herself, and Laura is around 15-16. Since vampires don't age, we could reasonably assume Carmilla in the novella was turned at about that age.

So the dates actually work out, technically speaking.

But, alas, I am of a mind with Jorge here. I really think it isn't "the" Carmilla, just a powerful vampire who happens to share the name and has a few references made to the source material. Castlevania hasn't given much in the way of evidence that the two characters are meant to be the same, especially as Castlevania's Carmilla has pretty much always been either A) a Mask or B) a much more mature woman (even in Circle of the Moon where she was made more youthful and attractive, she still appears to be firmly in her twenties). Despite being a huge fan of Sheridan Le Fanu's body of work (read up his ghost story anthologies too; they're a blast, filled to the brim with fun Victorian era horror story tropes), I really think Castlevania's Carmilla is overwhelmingly a separate and unrelated character with occasional nods to her literary inspiration.

Now, Dracula is outright said to be the same one we see in Bram Stoker's novel, because for better or worse, Bloodlines is indisputably canon now. Thanks a bunch, Portrait of Ruin... U___U 

[X]

I mean... not even Castlevania's Dracula is THE Dracula, so... ?

He was originally. Then LoI happened and flushed what we knew down the drain   Much to the heartbreak and disdain of some dungeonites here.

I'd personally like not to see it happen with other beloved characters in the series. Yeah I know I'm old-school that way. Nagumo's headcanon can work, but we're dealing with Judgement here which I will not ever recognize including that *cough* bulls**t! *cough* Grant/Sypha/Trevor love triangle. Mathias being Dracula was and still is very questionable to me. And I hope to god that no other developer comes along and starts making unnecessary changes to more beloved CV characters, all for the sake of tying up lose story ends or making other games 'fit'.

Interestingly, the original novella paints the image of Carmilla as a young teenage girl -- Laura notes that Carmilla doesn't seem to be much older than herself, and Laura is around 15-16. Since vampires don't age, we could reasonably assume Carmilla in the novella was turned at about that age.

So the dates actually work out, technically speaking.

Exactly. It does work, and works with virtually no flaws. Simple right? Carmilla became a vampire in her early teens then several years later she fought and lost to Simon. Easy as Pie. But did IGA see that or did he ignore it? Being a perfectionist he wouldn't have had to mess with this one. I'm a perfectionist myself but I know when something works out naturally (best left alone) and when something doesn't (don't mess with it!). So now we have a different and a 'not true to her origins' Carmilla in CV where there was no need of before. Just like Dracula.

It's a developers' epidemic I say

[SecretWeapon]

Even ignoring LoI, not even BSD happened the same way in the CV universe so i don't see why would it be the case with Carmilla

[The Puritan]

Indeed. In any case, there's at least some precedence that a version of the novel took place in the Vaniaverse. In it, Laura finds a portrait of her ancestor Mircalla Karnstein (actually Carmilla) dated 1698. The very same year Simon's Quest takes place, and where you face her as a boss. I do wonder if this was deliberate on IGA's part.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

It does work, and works with virtually no flaws.

You know, other than every single bit of Carmilla's actions and in-game dialog being absolutely different, both in tone and goals, to what Le Fanu wrote. They're two different people. You're disregarding much of my post wherein I ultimately disagree with you.

So, to illustrate my point, let's break down the key differences.

Carmilla in the games is practically Dracula's Third Officer. She seems to come just below Death in terms of loyalty. She's obsessed with him and just about worships him like a god. She preys on men as well as women; Carmilla in the games is not at all choosy about who she targets. She's a complete zealot for Dracula and whatever cause Dracula supports*. While she is sometimes accompanied by a servant named "Laura", there is nothing to indicate that this is anything other than a nod to Carmilla's literary inspiration. In the games where Carmilla is a major mover and shaker in the plot, Laura doesn't even appear as an unnamed enemy mook.

Carmilla in the book exclusively targets girls, preferably those who are around her own age when she was turned. She has plenty of opportunity to prey on several male characters in the story and pays them no mind at all. This pattern plays a huge part in her eventually being discovered as a vampire. She fixates on Laura in a number of ways, including sexually and romantically, because she yearns for an eternal companion she feels will "get" her. She's looking for what she believes is her soul mate. To that end, she also protects Laura from harm, and it's nearly impossible to think of a situation in which Carmilla would knowingly endanger Laura for any reason.

In the novella, she also seems to be compelled to attempt to maintain the experience of her lost youth by living it over again with and "through" similarly aged girls who are similar to how she was in life, like a phantom doomed to repeat itself through eternity, which is part of how vampires were often portrayed in that era: ghosts who never lost their bodies and now exist as twisted versions of who they were in life. She is also very much a noncombatant, preferring to achieve her goals through establishing and manipulating emotional ties, though she does on rare occasion use her ability to transform to frighten or intimidate.

Hell, the only game to even attempt to visually depict her in a manner similar to the novella was Circle of the Moon, which isn't even part of the official timeline, and they still aged her up considerably.

So no, they're really nowhere near the same character. Their methods and motives are completely different and have little to no resemblance to each other.

We have two distinct Carmillas, two utterly different characters who share a name. One is the original, created by Irish author Sheridan Le Fanu in 1871. The other was created exclusively for Castlevania: a genocidal zealot in the service of Dracula who looks, talks, and behaves very differently but has an occasional conceptual reference to the original character from whom this character draws her name.

And Castlevania's Carmilla would totally be the sort of type to do what Nagumo has postulated. Whether she actually did is up for debate (I guess hence this thread), but this is definitely not a scheme she'd be above attempting.


*It's a shame we never got to see Carmilla meet Soma. I do wonder what she'd say and do when she realized who/what he really is.

[AlexCalvo]

I'm not very familiar with the novella, but wasn't it supposed to be at least partially inspired by Elizabeth Bathory?  If that is the case, then I could see that being where a good deal of where her characterization in Castlevania comes from.  Weren't her and Bartley supposed to be the same character originally, but translation or just designer ignorance mucked it up?

[SecretWeapon]

Carmilla's coffin in the novella is full with fresh blood but outside of that and being a female vampire, no other similarities.

Another point against the novella being directly canon (even before CVNetflix added Carmilla during CV3) was the presence of Laura in RoB. Iirc in the novella, Laura's father is a veteran from the Austrian Empire. Said empire existed from 1804 to 1919, while RoB happens during 1792

[AlexCalvo]

I think it's pretty clear that like all historical and literary characters added into Castlevania that it is its own unique take on the character that can range from somewhat true to the original to really only the same name and a few small references.  Anyone who assumes she is supposed to be the exact same needs to look at Bartly, Giles DeRais, Olrox(Orlok), St. Germaine, etc... etc...  Why would anyone assume Carmilla is the one that breaks the mold?

[Lumi Kløvstad]

I'm not very familiar with the novella, but wasn't it supposed to be at least partially inspired by Elizabeth Bathory?  If that is the case, then I could see that being where a good deal of where her characterization in Castlevania comes from.  Weren't her and Bartley supposed to be the same character originally, but translation or just designer ignorance mucked it up?

She was.

The myth and popular tale spun around Bathory by her political rivals (as is now believed: there has been little hard evidence that has come down to us that would corroborate that picture beyond the shadow of doubt) was a source of major inspiration for both Le Fanu and Stoker. No guessing why: it's just a compelling tale of a completely unrepentant monster, well suited for establishing an unredeemably evil foe that must be overcome.

That having been said, in most depictions, Carmilla is often treated a great deal more sympathetically than Dracula tends to be. Of course, that may have a lot to do with the fact that Le Fanu gives her more redeeming points -- she does genuinely seem to love Laura and while her actions that stem from this are not acceptable, they are at least understandable in that context. It's an obsessive stalker's kind of love, but it is definitely love; she values Laura's thoughts, opinions and her companionship, and becomes violent because she believes she stands to "lose" Laura forever. That's more than Bathory tends to get in most depictions, historically speaking, though that is now starting to change.

But yeah, the Bathory Legend was a huge inspiration on almost every single major vampire character produced during the 19th and 20th centuries, especially the latter. It's just too good a villain story to pass up.