Topic: So none of the Wygol villagers are actually descendants of Richter.

[X]

Something else I wanted to bring up is that I believe after OoE came out it became commonly accepted that "The Belmont family ended up in Wygol village" was the explanation for what happend to them after Richter disappeared. ...but now that explanation falls apart because of the Wygol villagers being only distant relatives. Which means we still don't know where the actual Belmonts are. So now we're basically back at the beginning. Oh well.

That, and you'd also have to consider that there are a heck of a lot more families of Belmonts out there in the world. 13 people hardly makes up for an entire group of families, unless it was supposed to be 13 representatives from each of the families in Romania, which would make more sense. However the main family line (Belmont) is not there and neither is the Morris clan for that matter since they are in the US.

[zangetsu468]

I always got the impression that Barlowe was corrupted by exposure to Dominus (like Albus was). I mean, if Dominus was meant to revive Dracula, why the hell does it work just like Barlowe "tricked you into believing" it would? Sure, it kills the user, but it sure as heck kills Dracula too.

Not disputing it can destroy Dracula. However Barlowe runs Ecclesia and he would know that it's the only thing strong enough to destroy the seal.


SPOILERS BELOW

Shanoa also mentions this on her conversation with Barlowe:

(click to show/hide)

Barlowe: Because without [Dominus], I'll never destroy that infernal seal.

Shanoa: ...Seal? You told me that was the vessel of Dracula's soul!

Barlowe: Of course! Ecclesia's mission is to realize the singular wish of all
mankind: the resurrection of our lord, Count Dracula!

Shanoa: Mankind wishes for no such thing.

Barlowe: Dracula's power comes from the darkness in people's hearts--our
hearts. Ask yourself then, why does he continue to return, regardless of
defeat? Because our hearts yearn for Dracula's presence! Haaaa ha ha ha ha ha!

Shanoa: ...Just another victim of [Dominus]... It's driven you mad!

Barlowe: No, Shanoa... How can you be blind to this? ...If you refuse to see,
then you are the fool!

The only thing this quote is telling me is that:
A) Dominus was indeed created to destroy Dracula, however
B) Barlowe is corrupt and has "chaos" in his heart - which he states mankind having is the reason for Dracula's perpetual return (which is substantiated by OOE and other games)
C) If Dominus had corrupted him, why wouldn't he just lie to Shanoa in order to break the seal - which he initially told her was the vessel for Dracula's soul? Why tell her AS she was about to break it? It makes no sense
D) He outright states that Ecclesia's purpose is to revive Dracula
E) Shanoa accuses him of being corrupted by Dominus and he point blank states NO
F) Why use Shanoa/ Dominus when a simple sacrifice would do?
- He didn't want to sacrifice himself,
- He didn't know if a normal sacrifice would be enough but tried anyway,
- He knew Shanoa without Dominus wouldn't have been a strong enough sacrifice,
- Because story

Plus there is more: We see by Barlowe's sacrifice that a simple sacrifice could've broken the seal. So no, Dominus was not needed at all to break it. More evidence that it was always meant to destroy Dracula, but Barlowe got crazy and repurposed Dominus' function.

As I stated above, Barlowe would not have wanted to sacrifice himself. He crawls over to the seal as a last ditch effort and self destructs. It still required a large amount of power to destroy this seal and Barlowe is very strongly skilled in magic. Therefore Shanoa trying to break the seal without Dominus isn't something that would have been possible.

Why otherwise would Barlowe fight Shanoa? If he was truly corrupted by Dominus, he would've walked straight over to the seal and self destructed when Shanoa refused. Instead he fights her saying things (in the english versionn) such as "I raised you" and "stupid disciple". I believe Barlowe was actually sincere in his words to Shanoa, he wanted Dracula resurrected. That's why Ecclesia was formed. Also not that it matters, but it's interesting to note in the parallel timeline in OOS "The Order" is the cult trying to resurrect Dracula, coincidence or parallel occurrences... I say the latter


Nagumo I'm assuming for the term "Enseki" you're using a specific formation of kanji? I'm no expert in Japanese but severak of the translation sites I've just tried out list the term as both "relative", "relatives" and "distant relative".

I'm inclined to believe these Wygol villagers were like the Morrises, descendants carrying the 13 remaining bloodlines of the Belmont clan, but not the one "true" Belmont lineage (that carried the 'rightful male heir' to the VK) which gave birth to Julius ready for the battle of 1999.

[theplottwist]

Not disputing it can destroy Dracula. However Barlowe runs Ecclesia and he would know that it's the only thing strong enough to destroy the seal.

No reason to build something that can destroy Dracula himself when all he needed was to destroy the seal, which is obviously much weaker than the Demon Lord of all Darkness.

Sure, sure, if the seal was keeping Dracula inside, then it was stronger. But was stronger than a WEAKENED Dracula. The seal didn't need to be stronger than Dracula, it only needed to be stronger than Dracula when he's dead.

So, again, no reason for Barlowe to build something that can actually destroy an awakened Dracula when he needed only something strong enough to destroy the seal.

B) Barlowe is corrupt and has "chaos" in his heart - which he states mankind having is the reason for Dracula's perpetual return (which is substantiated by OOE and other games)

And, of course, Shanoa, not being drunk with evil, understands that mankind desires for no such thing. Barlowe is not even making sense here.

C) If Dominus had corrupted him, why wouldn't he just lie to Shanoa in order to break the seal - which he initially told her was the vessel for Dracula's soul? Why tell her AS she was about to break it? It makes no sense

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean here. There is a LARGE piece of dialogue before this, and Shanoa makes it quite clear she's not doing it because she already knows what's up - thanks to Albus. Barlowe loses his posture because Shanoa will not comply. He wouldn't lie because there is NO WAY he can lie here.

D) He outright states that Ecclesia's purpose is to revive Dracula

He also states the mankind wishes for Dracula's revival 

Again, he's not making any sense and is delusional at this point. And even if he weren't, who is to say that he hasn't repurposed Ecclesia right now? He's the founder. He can do whatever the hell he wants at any point in time. Who is to say he did NOT think like this before being corrupted?

E) Shanoa accuses him of being corrupted by Dominus and he point blank states NO

I don't believe he's saying "No, Shanoa. I'm not corrupted". I believe it's more like "No, Shanoa... How could you let me down now?";

And again: If you were corrupted, would you say "YES YES I'M CORRUPTED YES"? Of course not. Barlowe thinks these ideas are his, and not creations of Dracula's influence. He thinks he's doing the right thing.

See the battle with Albus. Albus NEVER recognizes he's corrupted while corrupted, and well... He quite clearly is.

F) Why use Shanoa/ Dominus when a simple sacrifice would do?
- He didn't want to sacrifice himself,
- He didn't know if a normal sacrifice would be enough but tried anyway,
- He knew Shanoa without Dominus wouldn't have been a strong enough sacrifice,
- Because story

He didn't want to sacrifice himself - yet he happily did it when he couldn't obtain Dominus.

He didn't know if a normal sacrifice would be enough but tried anyway - I give you this one. It seems to me that he was ony sure it'd work when he was right about to do it.

He knew Shanoa without Dominus wouldn't have been a strong enough sacrifice - Makes no sense. If your hypothesis is correct, then Dominus was designed to break the seal, and not kill Dracula. If it was designed to break the seal, then a sacrifice wasn't even needed at all. He only needed someone with an innate ability to use glyphs - Shanoa - so he'd not have to consider if Shanoa was enough or not. Proof of this is that they fight each other because Barlowe wants Dominus so he can use it himself. All that was ever needed was Dominus, therefore a sacrifice was never even considered.

Because story - Oh well.

As I stated above, Barlowe would not have wanted to sacrifice himself. He crawls over to the seal as a last ditch effort and self destructs. It still required a large amount of power to destroy this seal and Barlowe is very strongly skilled in magic. Therefore Shanoa trying to break the seal without Dominus isn't something that would have been possible.

And as I said up there: If your hypothesis is correct, a blood sacrifice was never even considered. All that was ever needed was Dominus, and since Shanoa was supposed to be the only one able to use glyphs, she was needed. Once Barlowe noticed that he could too use Glyphs like Albus, Shanoa became useless and he tried to rip the glyph from her by force.

Important of note: Dominus does kill it's user. But only because Dracula's power is too much to bear, and not because "sacrifice". Each of the Glyphs, when used separatelly, consume Shanoa's life. This is a side effect of Dracula's power, and not "intended so the user is sacrificed".

Why otherwise would Barlowe fight Shanoa?

To take the Glyph from her and use it himself.

[Nagumo]

About the meaning of enseki, within the game it was written with the following: 遠 and  縁. The first one means "distant". The other one can have a meaning of "relation", "connenction", etc.

Regarding Barlowe and Dracula's seal, Barlowe becomes Dracula's vessel, right? I always interpreted that scene where he clutches at the vessel that is holding Dracula's remains he is actually possessed by Dracula's power/magic. So I think the seal was never actually broken and that is was more of a last ditch effort to bring back Dracula in some form. Perhaps breaking the seal would have been a more preferable outcome because then Dracula would be fully revived instead of needing a host body?   

[zangetsu468]

About the meaning of enseki, within the game it was written with the following: 遠 and  縁. The first one means "distant". The other one can have a meaning of "relation", "connenction", etc.

I still believe they're descended from all remaining non-heir to the VK 13 'Belmont' bloodlines (at whatever point in history they have been offshoots to the main "Belmont" lineage). That's just my interpretation, how distant the term 'distant' means is anyone's guess, they can't be any more distant than the Morrises seeing they were specifically descended from Trevor Belmont.
I'm not going to read too much into that because I don't think story has ever been CV's strongest point. I acknowledge there still is thought put into this plot but it comes down to basic things, the developers wanted a female protagonist who wasn't a VK wielding Belmont and there needed to be a means to destroy Dracula [Dominus].

In terms of the term 'enseki' I don't know maybe in that one line the wrong kanji was used, or maybe the simple explanation is that intention was for the villagers to be more like the equivalent descendants which haven't procreated off the true lineage of the Belmonts that wield the VK. It's strongly inferred in Iga's timeline that maintaining the Belmont lineage was of the utmost importance from Leon>Julius in both name and in blood.

Regarding Barlowe and Dracula's seal, Barlowe becomes Dracula's vessel, right? I always interpreted that scene where he clutches at the vessel that is holding Dracula's remains he is actually possessed by Dracula's power/magic. So I think the seal was never actually broken and that is was more of a last ditch effort to bring back Dracula in some form. Perhaps breaking the seal would have been a more preferable outcome because then Dracula would be fully revived instead of needing a host body?

On a side note, I always interpreted that vessel (perhaps only in the context of OOE though) to be the Crimson Stone. It has a crimson hue, contains the soul of Dracula and it's thought that Dracula by having the Crimson Stone can keep returning as he can keep absorbing his soul, thereby also growing more powerful over centuries, should he be defeated. As well as Ecclesia (Barlowe) who seems to have been guarding this in their safehold for who knows how long.

the seal was never actually broken - as quoted above
Whether plot's interpretation or mine is correct (sorry plot, I have to agree to disagree  , I only played OOE properly back in 2008 so I'd have to play through it again to properly reply to you) I interpreted something similar to you Nagumo. Barlowe wanted the seal broken on the vessel containing Dracula's soul, which is why he wanted Dominus to be used. He wanted Shanoa to use it (or anyone who wasn't him) so he wouldn't have to sacrifice himself, or also simply because Shanoa had mastered the skill to use glyphs better than anyone else. After she wouldn't use it, they fight, after he can't win as a last ditch effort he uses all of his magic/ power to self destruct, causing the vessel to fracture, releasing Dracula's soul (more on this point below) and Castlevania
to materialise into the physical plane again, with Dracula's throne literally still residing behind the gates to hell/ the underworld.

Dracula would be fully revived - as quoted above
This is never explicitly stated but I believe it holds at least some merit. The more preferable outcome was to break the seal on the vessel, thereby allowing Dracula to re-incarnate in his full former glory (presumably). Because Barlowe couldn't have this outcome which he desired, what he did was either:

A - As above, just put all of his magic/ power into one final self-sacrificial blast to try and break the seal on the vessel/ break it open to release Dracula's soul.
B - Sacrifice himself as the 'host body' much like Isaac was in COD.

Personally I choose A. There's no indication to me that Barlowe was a host body in the ending or any other place. I'm not against the idea but just not seeing it, and even so it's not a focal point of the story.

Presuming A is correct, why didn't Barlowe just do this from the start? Ideally he didn't want to sacrifice himself and he didn't know whether it would work. I can imagine than resurrecting the Dark Lord isn't like microwaving chicken, things could potentially go wrong quite easily, and there would be no guarantee the resurrection would work or take any effect if the procedure wasn't carried out as smoothly as possible. I mean Barlowe fights with books, Ecclesia had a library dedicated presumably to the application of magic, alchemy and the use of glyphs. (I don't think that shelf was simply full of manga...) Means aside Perhaps the outcome to all of this meant that with the vessel being fractured releasing Dracula's soul rather than the seal being broken, the resurrection was incomplete, or not as "complete" as it should have been. Remember that Dracula's throne is still behind the gates to hell, which would mean he's not complete yet. Whether OOE's Dracula was intended as a Centennial resurrection or not is debatable, it may have initially been until Shanoa refused to use Dominus on the seal to Dracula's soul's vessel.

This is the other reason in my mind why Barlowe is not simply "corrupted" by Dominus imo. He established or at least was the head of Ecclesia at the time of OOE. That vessel (I'll call it the Crimson Stone) was sitting in Ecclesia since Lord knows when. Ecclesia as an organisation (in the absence of the Belmonts) has always focused on 1 goal which was to take down Dracula. If I'm understanding correctly, Barlowe raised Shanoa and Albus as if they were brother and sister, but Albus found out what he was trying to do, then took the Dominus glyphs/ kidnapped the Belmont descendants/ set out on his quest, yadayada. Barlowe himself seems to have invested a lot of time into Shanoa and Albus and had one focal point which started many years ago. I think Barlowe had chaos in his heart and established Ecclesia to revive Dracula, that's really what I interpreted from the game at the time of playing it. I'm not saying Barlowe wasn't corrupted I'm just not interpreting the when/how the same as someone like theplottwist.