Topic: The "M" word

[Dracula9]

That's well and fine, but hearing multiple outside opinions is (if it already hasn't) probably going to conjure up new what-ifs and spin you around even more.

Communication is key, mate. Hell, you could probably show her this thread to iterate just how much it's eating away at you.

[darkmanx_429]

Drac and X are right. Especially, about the children thing. It's all easy to talk about kids, but until you have one that's not just another chapter that's a whole nother book.

I JUST had my first child, a son. He's 24 days old. I just turned 35 at the end of January. I've been with my wife for 7 years and we have been married for 5 years.

Bringing a child into this Earth is not something that should be taken lightly, so if BOTH parties aren't into it (just with anything else) then I say again DON'T DO IT.

If you have to have a argument with your special someone and basically try to coherence or force them to play your hand, then re-evaluate your relationship.

Hell, maybe you guys should take some time apart and even see other people to really see how you both stand.

You also need to consider is your "relationship" more important than your friendship?

I mention this because marriage (even serious or causal dating) can do irreversible damage to your friendship status.

Is that worth the risk of maybe never being able to talk to her again if it goes bad?

Man, sounds to me you should just enjoy the moment and don't push ANY issues.

As you mentioned you are in your twenties and you don't know how the next couple of years play out for you.

You may really meet "The One" and your previous status may just become a footnote in your life's quest.

Just something to think about bro, don't be so quick to put all your eggs in one basket.

I know it's hard because real men are taught to put women on a pedestal so to speak, but you have great things to offer to the a special someone as well.

It goes both ways.

[DoctaMario]

^^^ This, this this, and THIS! I definitely think you're a bit young to be thinking about marriage Freddy.

But with that said, I don't know where you live, but it confers certain legal benefits. If your significant other is in a fatal car wreck and her family doesn't like you, if you're not married, there's a good chance the hospital won't even let you see her. There are tax benefits here in the US too, which is bullshit, but whatever. If she's as young as you are, and is as driven as you say she is, then I guess I can kind of see why she's not in a hurry to get married.

[Mooning Freddy]

^^^ This, this this, and THIS! I definitely think you're a bit young to be thinking about marriage Freddy.
If she's as young as you are, and is as driven as you say she is, then I guess I can kind of see why she's not in a hurry to get married.

Well, I guess one of the reasons for this is that virtually all of my extended family got married and had children at a fairly young age, in their twenties. The only exception is my aunt, who is a shy and awkward woman with low self esteem, who had a child at a fairly old age and lives with a man who doesn't appear to really love her. I feel that she compromised for this relationship because she was getting old and lonely. Most of my family seem to be quite happily married and never have gone through a divorce.
My father married my mother quite a short while after he met her, and they had their first child (me) at 22.

Personally, I feel like it would be a mistake for me to break up with someone that I love, and who loves me, as much as my significant other. I feel that our love would allow us to work out our different opinions.

[Dracula9]

As I said, a marriage license does not and should not validate or invalidate love. Obviously marriage on an emotional and intimacy level is different.

It's sounding to me like you're wanting marriage to somehow make your relationship happier or better, or something of that ilk. There's a hell of a lot more to it than that, and I iterate once more that you shouldn't NEED to push marriage to "prove" how much you love her, or anything like that.

A happy, loving relationship is the whole cake, marriage is just some really nice frosting.

[X]

Well, I guess one of the reasons for this is that virtually all of my extended family got married and had children at a fairly young age, in their twenties. The only exception is my aunt, who is a shy and awkward woman with low self esteem, who had a child at a fairly old age and lives with a man who doesn't appear to really love her. I feel that she compromised for this relationship because she was getting old and lonely. Most of my family seem to be quite happily married and never have gone through a divorce.
My father married my mother quite a short while after he met her, and they had their first child (me) at 22.

This sounds to me that you are experiencing what's known as peer pressure. You see almost every one of your family succeeding in terms of marriage and you find yourself wanting the same. You can't help but follow suit because that's what's been ingrained into you. Be very careful. Peer pressure is a definite deal-breaker for your love life. You want marriage and you want children. But she's not yet ready for it so don't push her to the breaking point. All things happen when they happen. In their own good time. Sure you're in your thirties but so am I. You already have what I don't. Love. I'm alone. Really alone. You're not. Don't throw it away for being in a rush to tie the knot. Honor and cherish every single second of it. True marriage is not an expensive ceremony with family and attendances. No Priest to tell you that you are now married. No legal documents to sign--none of that matters. Love is the true bonds of matrimony and you already have that with her.

[e105beta]

Everyone has already said a lot of great stuff, but I wanted to put in my two cents:

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I don't think this is about marriage itself as much as it you feeling like you aren't as important to the woman you love as she is to you.

It sounds like, to me, that you're worried that her lack of desire to get married to you may possibly reflect a lack of commitment to a future you may have together; it sounds like you're worried that "I'm not having kids for a long while" may be too long for you. You've said that she believes that making the career she wants is more important than any relationship. The only way I can interpret that from over here on my computer is that making the career she wants is, push come to shove, more important than her relationship with you. That if she had to choose between you or her career, she'd choose the career.

I think you two, together, need to sit down and evaluate your relationship and ask yourself some questions~

-What does marriage mean to you? What does marriage mean to her? Are those meanings at least similar? If they're different, which I expect they are, how do they differ? Is that ok with you?

-What kind of commitment are you looking for? Do you want to be with this woman forever? Does she want to be with you forever?

-Does your love for her outwiegh the possibility that you may never get the family you want? Are you ok with the knowledge that your relationship with her comes second to her job?

I believe that marriage, in its ideal, non-legal, non-tax benefit form, is wholly a commitment to always place your spouse's needs, and the needs of the family you may or may not have, above your own. It is love in that its a decision made every day to treat your spouse like they are the most important thing in the world. With that being said, such a commitment only works if both people are making it. Otherwise it becomes one-sided and poisonous for both parties involved. It's not something you want to push into or be pushed into. It'll only amplify any negative feelings that may be there.

So again, I think you and your girlfriend need to seriously, and calmly talk to each other about your values, your priorities, and your plans for the future, and make sure that you guys truly compatable with each other.

[Belmontoya]

Real love cannot be trumped by career ambitions.

[Mooning Freddy]

It sounds like, to me, that you're worried that her lack of desire to get married to you may possibly reflect a lack of commitment to a future you may have together; it sounds like you're worried that "I'm not having kids for a long while" may be too long for you. You've said that she believes that making the career she wants is more important than any relationship. The only way I can interpret that from over here on my computer is that making the career she wants is, push come to shove, more important than her relationship with you. That if she had to choose between you or her career, she'd choose the career.

If I put it before her that way, she would say, "yes, my career is more important. But... I really wouldn't want you to make me take that choice." And then she would try to convince me how I would be happy too if I stayed with her and let her pursue her life of choice, and how lonely she would be if I left her. Technically she has an advantage in this argument because she already imagines what her dream career and life is going to be like, while I haven't really decided yet. So it's easier for her to convince me.
What annoys me is the idea- that she basically wants me to compromise on my goals for the sake of love while not altering hers.

What does marriage mean to you? What does marriage mean to her? Are those meanings at least similar? If they're different, which I expect they are, how do they differ? Is that ok with you? What kind of commitment are you looking for? Do you want to be with this woman forever? Does she want to be with you forever?

That's part of the problem. She would say that she wants to be with me forever and doesn't want anybody else, but sometimes I feel that she sees me like her teddy bear, that I'm her best friend, the guy who helps her and supports her and makes love to her. But that is not exactly what a husband is, and a true partnership requires more than that, like a true commitment to partnership and cooperation and compromise, not just the "I would love you forever as long as you let me do what I want" that she gives me.

Does your love for her outwiegh the possibility that you may never get the family you want? Are you ok with the knowledge that your relationship with her comes second to her job?

Another part of the problem. I think that she somewhat lives in a dream world and that she might not necessarily succeed in her choice of career. That might just be me being a horrible pessimist, and I really hope she does succeed, but she's very ideological, and I feel sometimes she's not being realistic and down-to-earth enough.  I don't really know what kind of family I want; as long as it's a true partnership like I described before.

My second persona is not allowing me to end the relationship because I have doubts about it. It may sound weird, but the fact that the relationship is difficult is actually encouraging me to continue it. It's like a challenge that I need to overcome. I feel like I completed the first stage of finding a person that I like enough to live the rest of my life with. Now comes the second, harder stage, of trying to form a stable, solid partnership with her. Is that insane? Am I a relationship masochist?  

[e105beta]

If I put it before her that way, she would say, "yes, my career is more important. But... I really wouldn't want you to make me take that choice." And then she would try to convince me how I would be happy too if I stayed with her and let her pursue her life of choice, and how lonely she would be if I left her. Technically she has an advantage in this argument because she already imagines what her dream career and life is going to be like, while I haven't really decided yet. So it's easier for her to convince me.
What annoys me is the idea- that she basically wants me to compromise on my goals for the sake of love while not altering hers.

I think that "yes, my career is more important" in any form is a big red flag in and of itself. That's not a foundation for a healthy relationship, marriage or no. You not having planned out the rest of your life by the age of 25 in no way makes you less important than her career.

At the same time, I would never force her to make the choice for the sake of making the choice. If you're happy where you are, and have no reason to potentially end the relationship, then don't force her to choose. But to me it doesn't sound like you see the relationship going in the direction that you want, and it's making you unhappy. If your goals are to get married and have kids, and hers are not, that's going to be a problem at some point.

That's part of the problem. She would say that she wants to be with me forever and doesn't want anybody else, but sometimes I feel that she sees me like her teddy bear, that I'm her best friend, the guy who helps her and supports her and makes love to her. But that is not exactly what a husband is, and a true partnership requires more than that, like a true commitment to partnership and cooperation and compromise, not just the "I would love you forever as long as you let me do what I want" that she gives me.

I agree with everything you've just said. Neither a husband nor a wife is just someone you keep around to make you feel good. It is a mutual partnership built on sacrifice, compromise, and self-giving.

Because of that, what I've bolded stands out to me. You are supposed to help her and support her. That's an important part of a healthy relationship, so you're doing that right, which makes me ask: Do you feel like your girlfriend is not helping and supporting you? Do you have goals that you feel you aren't being nurtured? Do you have a career that you feel your girlfriend wouldn't sacrfice for to see succeed under any circumstances? Do you feel like if you stayed in this relationship you'd be taking a backseat, and be taken along for the ride?

Another part of the problem. I think that she somewhat lives in a dream world and that she might not necessarily succeed in her choice of career. That might just be me being a horrible pessimist, and I really hope she does succeed, but she's very ideological, and I feel sometimes she's not being realistic and down-to-earth enough.  I don't really know what kind of family I want; as long as it's a true partnership like I described before.

I don't know you, and I don't know your girlfriend, so all I have is your side of the story. So I'm going to attempt to look at this from her side of the argument given what you've said in this thread.

You've said that she's very driven, and it sounds like to me she's got a plan for her life. Are you driven? Do you have a goal that you're willing to pursue to the point where she wants to get behind it? Are you someone who is worth compromising for? If she took a risk by marrying you and having your children, something that could very well hurt her career aspirations, would It pay off? Would you be able to pick up the slack? Are you someone that can help her build the life she wants?

I'm in no way trying to imply that you're doing something wrong by not having everything planned out for yourself at 25, but if she is very goal oriented and you're not, that might explain why she's not being very compromising.

Or she could just be stubborn and unwilling to compromise because that's how she is. Again, I'm not you.

My second persona is not allowing me to end the relationship because I have doubts about it. It may sound weird, but the fact that the relationship is difficult is actually encouraging me to continue it. It's like a challenge that I need to overcome. I feel like I completed the first stage of finding a person that I like enough to live the rest of my life with. Now comes the second, harder stage, of trying to form a stable, solid partnership with her. Is that insane? Am I a relationship masochist?  

Monogomy is a challenge, and being married myself, I think Scott M. Peck said it best: "Love is an act of will -- namely, both an intention and an action. Will also implies choice. We do not have to love. We choose to love.”

There's nothing insane about recognizing that a relationship takes hard work and effort to make work, and I admire your desire to want to work through a rough patch in your relationship rather than jump ship. You're making a choice to love your girlfriend, you just want to see that love returned.

That being said, you cannot change your girlfriend. She may never change. And that's her right. So you have a very simple decision to make: If nothing changed about your relationship, would you be ok with that? Would you want to spend the rest of your life with your girlfriend exactly the same as she is now?

I like metaphors, so bear with me: It's much like a house. If your ultimate goal is to find a house in the woods, and you live in a house in the city, no amount of home repairs and structural solidification will move your house to where you want it to be. That doesn't mean you can't be happy in the city, but if it's not where you want to be, then it's not where you want to be, end of story.

I don't think talking to us about it anymore is going to help you. You need to reflect on it, and have a serious talk with your girlfriend about it. I'll be praying for you, and I hope whatever you ultimately decide is the right choice for you.

[Mooning Freddy]

Thank e105beta. What you said helps me make more order in the questions I should ask in my discussions with her. 

I think after hearing what you people have to say I know better how to discuss and address those things that bother me.

You're awesome. 

[X]

Always a pleasure Mooning Freddy, you're welcome