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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => Hardcore Gaming 101 => Topic started by: Jorge D. Fuentes on January 31, 2013, 01:22:24 PM

Title: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on January 31, 2013, 01:22:24 PM
Relevant Link Here (http://kotaku.com/5980392/stop-trying-to-use-companies-exist-to-make-money-as-an-argument-just-stop)

I was browsing the site above and saw this article.

There are many gamers who basically end up saying the statement "Companies exist to make money. Gaming companies are no exception" (usually with a 'let's not forget' or 'let me remind you' or whatever other vitriol comes beforehand), whenever gamers are reacting to a gaming company ripping them off, or treating them with disrespect, or not listening to them.

I've even seen this here.  Yes, they are companies.  Yes, they have to stay profitable.  But that's not an excuse to just cross your arms and accept whatever underhanded schemes they may randomly concoct to swindle money from customers or whatever other "screw you" action they're doing.

So I figured I'd share.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: crisis on January 31, 2013, 01:47:31 PM
I miss the era where every game didn't have to depend on DLC to stay relevant, aside from PC games that almost always had add-on expansions. Nowadays companies charge people to unlock stuff that's already "hidden" on the disc (*coughcapcomcough*), and I consider that to be a huge rip-off considering you've already payed $60+ for the product. Call of Duty gamers pay $15 for like 3 map packs. Then there's Konami's lackluster handling of Harmony of Despair but that's a different and debatable topic here. It's ridiculous.

These "big name" companies do owe us more than that, but it seems they just don't care most of the time (although there are some exceptions). Which is why indi-development is on the rise and showing a lot more uniqueness in their products than these companies that have been around for a decade or longer. There's also mobile phone gaming which has cut a huge chunk out of Nintendo's pockets in recent years, but that may be another topic too.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on January 31, 2013, 02:42:36 PM
I agree, it's no excuse. I always chaps my hide when I see someone willingly act as the "white knight" to corporate greed.

Remember, back in the day(I feel old saying that), corporate greed was actually FROWNED upon? Yeah, fat cat greedy bastards were villainized in movies and EVERYBODY hated them. When they'd get their "just deserts", either it being tossed in jail(and getting a giant cell mate named "Tiny") or even being killed in a hilariously ironic way(like being smashed under a multitude of gold bars), everybody just knew those creeps were bad news. Now, damn, people make excuses for guys like that. Sure, the comical portrayals might've been "out there", but it's still a pretty drastic change in perception when you had these same people, at one time, being the bane to underdogs and the good honest people of the world, now being sympathized and idolized. Times are a changin'... :( It kinda sends a chill down my spine if society, in the coming years, can go even further with this perception. What's next, "Oh, he's not a mass murderer.... he's just misunderstood!", "Sure, he's a drug dealer and he's killed people, but it was to ensure he doesn't get caught because, quite frankly, drug dealers need to make money too! They need to eat, buy cars and stuff!".
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on January 31, 2013, 03:13:25 PM
I think it's the opposite of the statement.
It's not "Companies Exist to make money".
It's more like "Companies need money to exist".
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on January 31, 2013, 05:58:09 PM
I think it's the opposite of the statement.
It's not "Companies Exist to make money".
It's more like "Companies need money to exist".
True. One would think that would mean a company would try to branch out to all demographics. Like I said, larger fanbase, more money. A wise company, by that logic, would be one that doesn't alienate an existing fanbase, because an existing fanbase is still a fanbase. Those are people who are familiar enough with what ever product you're selling to be a loyal customer. One would think the true goal, if a company INDEED seeks more money, is to keep their existing fanbase(because scaring them away means loosing valuable customers) AS WELL AS reaching out to new fans.

Sometimes people act like it can't be done. Either one way or the other, and you have to feed the old fanbase to the fire as a blood sacrifice if you want to gain the admiration of new fans. I think that's a load of shit. You can appeal to both old and new. I think it might be harder to do so, and might take more effort(certainly more effort than mindlessly throwing one fanbase to the lions and marking a big "X" on an older franchise canon just to start anew from scratch and act like you have no baggage), but it's entirely possible. Might take a little blood, sweat and tears, but anything of true quality does. Does seem strange, like the points I made above, people seem so much more content in the quick sacrifice and reboot than trying to do something different. It's always "reboot this" and "reboot that!". IMO, reboot is the lazy way to "do something new" without doing something "new". It's basically, "I have a great NEW idea, but I'm too much of a pussy to apply it to a new IP, so I'm going to find an existing franchise, kill it and restart it, but make it MY way, revolving around MY idea! Because, even if my idea sucks, the recognition of the familiar franchise name will be enough to sell my idea without the gamble of the 'new IP' thing.".
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Abnormal Freak on January 31, 2013, 06:32:46 PM
A game company absolutely is a business first and foremost, but the thing is, customers ultimately decide what the businessman sells (to an extent). If people are fed up with bullshit and having to buy additional content or what have you, simply express your opinion if possible and then make it a point NOT to monetarily support something. Game has a load of DLC you don't wanna pay for? Either don't pay for DLC or don't buy the game at all, as a statement.

All too often I see people bitching and moaning about stuff but then they grudgingly fork over the dollars anyway. So long as people do that, companies will continue to do stupid shit as long as it makes them money.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on January 31, 2013, 06:40:19 PM
It's why I don't shop at Walmart.
I know my dollars are virtually meaningless in comparison to the money of the hordes of people who shop there, but I am happy that my money is not going to that company.

This is a tough argument because on one side we have very entitled, privileged gamers (not all of us! or all of you! Just a few, very vocal sort), who want everything and if something isn't 100% perfect, then it sucks.  It's very black and white (and annoying).  Yet, on the other side we have very greedy companies with very underhanded business practices (when it comes to just the gaming companies, EA and Capcom come to mind).  Companies who essentially are "Fuck you you'll take our shit and like it".  Usually these companies aren't producing shitty product... but they're basically acting like the 'company' version of the entitled gamer.  "We made this game, we're entitled to squeeze every dollar out of you for it.".  Thing is, their games aren't bad games.  No one is saying their games suck (at least most of the time)... just their practices suck.

So gamers are stuck between a rock and a hard place: Do you choose not to support a company like that?  Or do you swallow your pride and buy their game and try your best not to think about it?

It's a tough call.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: TheouAegis on January 31, 2013, 07:12:14 PM
But- but- but, if you don't fork over the money, you don't have any right to begrudge and bemoan the current state of affairs said game company!

I've heard that line before (usually referring to MMORPG's). That's like saying if you don't vote, you don't have a right to complain about the government. Actually not voting IS voting, but the system is so corrupt that even if 90% of the population didn't vote, it wouldn't be taken as anarchy -- just apathy. There is no "no government" option on the ballots. If I could vote "no government" I'd partake in every election.

Or, "You get to play it for free, so you can't complain." I could see this in Counter-Strike and TFC, but as soon as the game companies open a cash shop, I believe you have every right to complain even if you don't pay. To say otherwise is like saying you can't complain that the produce at your local grocer isn't fresh if you don't buy any fruits or vegetables at that store.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on January 31, 2013, 10:08:29 PM
I believe that we all have the right to complain however corrupt companies can always turn a blind eye to the complaints.
Plus there is the problem of privileged gamers who do not care about the prices they pay and companies are willing to siphon all those money.

I miss the good old days...
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: son_the_vampire on February 01, 2013, 07:12:05 AM
Its a money hungry addiction, fed by the society. Sadly its all built up off the simple premise that we will continue to be milked, so long as the developers hands will milk us. I too wish it were the old days, where if i wanted more in a game, i would simply wait for its sequel, but those days are no more (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.inverteddungeon.com%2Fvep%2Ftrevor%2Fcastle3trevor-5.gif&hash=5d47c229caf55243c3bc471f42a2e97e)
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Mooning Freddy on February 01, 2013, 07:33:48 AM
I'm still mad as hell with EA for killing Westwood studios. Westwood had the heart and the soul of the Command & Conquer series and then EA raped it with sacrileges like Tiberium Wars and Tiberium Twilight. The two were still enjoyable games with cool gameplay. The story, however, sucked major bollocks.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: TheCruelAngel on February 01, 2013, 09:24:40 AM
Well, I think there's also more to it than we're allowing to see here.

There are game companies, development studios, investors, publishers, etc. on a long chain for making a game. Some "Game Companies" manage to be multiple of these things in one (Valve, Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft come to mind) to help ease a lot of the costs. They have in house development studios that they pay personally and self publish, cutting out a lot of middleman rubbish, and in some cases easy distribution that also cuts out external markets from cutting into their profits (eShop, Steam, Live Marketplace, PSN).

But some don't have that model and do have to deal with external factors. Distributors, publishers, investors; so a development studio only has so much say in what they can do. The development studio wants to make the best game you've ever played, generally speaking.

The studios only have so much money and time to development something (not like megahouses Blizzard and Valve who go "F*** you, it's ready when it's ready and you'll like it then!") which is dictated by~ Publishers, Producers, Investors, etc. so with a lot of hands in the pot, not everyone wants what's best. Hell, investors just want their money back + some ASAP! Well, that sucks. But they did just give us a million+ dollars to pay my artists, programmers, testers, actors, etc.

But the sad state of the industry (software in general) means that maybe 90% of projects never make it to fruition, or are never completed and have a lot of content stripped out of them just to ship it, and a lot of times never match the original vision for the project! It's a cruel cruel world, but...us programmers, artists, actors, testers, etc. do like to be paid. We do like to support our families. We would like to keep working and making amazing products for consumers to enjoy! What's that? Our game didn't sell enough to break even? Our studio is being shut down and everyone laid off? But...but...how am I going to support my family? The game was getting 9/10s all over the interwebs! What's that? It's because the publisher, the only person who believed in us and funded our project, has a bad rep so no one bought it?

Ok...that's a little hyperbole, but it is stuff I worry about (being a family man/dev) and I think a lot of us can relate. Do I think that excuses companies from treating their consumers poorly? HELL NO! I think companies like EA should be held accountable for bad business decisions. They make a crap ton of money off their minimal effort copy+paste money printer "Madden" (which thankfully let's them experiment with new IPs like Dead Space!), and I ain't even mad about Origin or day one DLC. So EA wants to sell their products live Valve does. Who can blame them? It cuts down distribution costs and sees more profit for them to invest back into their development studios. And day one DLC works, since art/content creation teams are usually sitting on their thumbs while the test/debug/dev teams are busy ironing out the wrinkles to consumers will have a stable product, meet platform specification requirements (Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo all say "You product needs to meet these requirements!" Stuff like, not crashing, not wiping out system memory, support these resolutions, etc.), so why not have your asset creation teams come up with new stuff to be released after the game has come out? Oh, the debug/test team are done already? Well, have them work on this extra content and make sure nothing bad happens! Oh...did that too? I guess make it available as extra content on release/pre-orders!

I think things that EA has done that actually bug me is in Battlefield 3 (for PC) I have to be on some stupid Battlefield facebook thing to organize matches, play with friends, etc. Why couldn't that just be integrated into the game's UI, instead of IE? I don't even care if you just load IE in the game and masked it with some snazzy in game stuff. Seriously, that stuff is dumb.

And always on DRM is annoying. Blizzard did it in Diablo 3, Ubisoft does it (I usually only play Ubisoft titles on consoles anyway so it doesn't bother me that much), and to an extent Valve and EA do it through Steam and Origin. Now a service like Steam and Origin I'm OK with, kind of, since you could still technically log in offline and access the titles you have locally. Not all titles work like this, but it's still smart to allow me to play HL2 without my Steam needing to be online.

I mean, hell, I remember when everyone hated Steam when HL2 came out. Now look at us!

What was I talking about again? Oh well...

tl;dr
The issues are deeper than we're allowing ourselves to see, people need money to survive in this society, but that shouldn't excuse companies from actually making bad business decisions which negatively effect consumers. I think that sums it up?
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Abnormal Freak on February 01, 2013, 10:13:51 AM
I don't think you get it, TheCruelAngel. It's all about The Big, Evil Corporation. The Big, Evil Corporation. Remember that.

There are no people; it's only fat-cat swindlers.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Highwind Dragoon on February 01, 2013, 10:20:51 AM
I'm still mad as hell with EA for killing Westwood studios. Westwood had the heart and the soul of the Command & Conquer series and then EA raped it with sacrileges like Tiberium Wars and Tiberium Twilight. The two were still enjoyable games with cool gameplay. The story, however, sucked major bollocks.

....Not as bad as when Microsoft disbanded Ensemble studios; now we'll never see AoE 4 (Modern age) and AoE 5 (Futuristic space age).
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: X on February 01, 2013, 10:46:38 AM
Quote
Sometimes people act like it can't be done. Either one way or the other, and you have to feed the old fanbase to the fire as a blood sacrifice if you want to gain the admiration of new fans. I think that's a load of shit. You can appeal to both old and new. I think it might be harder to do so, and might take more effort(certainly more effort than mindlessly throwing one fanbase to the lions and marking a big "X" on an older franchise canon just to start anew from scratch and act like you have no baggage), but it's entirely possible. Might take a little blood, sweat and tears, but anything of true quality does. Does seem strange, like the points I made above, people seem so much more content in the quick sacrifice and reboot than trying to do something different. It's always "reboot this" and "reboot that!". IMO, reboot is the lazy way to "do something new" without doing something "new". It's basically, "I have a great NEW idea, but I'm too much of a pussy to apply it to a new IP, so I'm going to find an existing franchise, kill it and restart it, but make it MY way, revolving around MY idea! Because, even if my idea sucks, the recognition of the familiar franchise name will be enough to sell my idea without the gamble of the 'new IP' thing.".

You just described Lords of Shadow beautifully!  8)
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: TheCruelAngel on February 01, 2013, 12:25:38 PM
I don't think you get it, TheCruelAngel. It's all about The Big, Evil Corporation. The Big, Evil Corporation. Remember that.

There are no people; it's only fat-cat swindlers.

Damn those fat-cat swindlers! Them and their big, evil corporations...doing, whatever they want without any consequences for their actions! Making so much monies and buying governments, industries and making sure the consumer is screwed over!

I mean, look as these smug swindlers and their snazzy logos!
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.catchwordbranding.com%2Fstatic%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F02%2Fdystopian-logos_answers.jpg&hash=f810846c0d8b5e13c0bb559b8fb56cd1)
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on February 01, 2013, 02:25:06 PM
All too often I see people bitching and moaning about stuff but then they grudgingly fork over the dollars anyway. So long as people do that, companies will continue to do stupid shit as long as it makes them money.
It's like, if you can literally take a shit and discover that people will step on each others' faces just to buy it off you, what insentive do you have to sell anything other THAN shit? If you can sell your own steaming pile of dookie and people love it, you're going to sell shit. If you can cut corners and release a crappy product, and people still praise you for it, why even feel the need to change? People are buying your stuff, are praising it despite it being bad. That's all that matters. There's no strive for excellence if the general consensus lowers it's standards. But like I said, soak society into this way of thinking and, sooner or later, without change to show newer generations there's "another way", this "way" becomes an inevitability. As so "all believe", then "it is so".

So gamers are stuck between a rock and a hard place: Do you choose not to support a company like that?  Or do you swallow your pride and buy their game and try your best not to think about it?

It's a tough call.
Of course, fandom has no qualms about putting each other under the stress as result of this. You have no right to rant about a bad game unless you've played it, but playing it means you either have to buy it or rent it, which is aiding the funding of these bad games. And a lot of those bastards love to rub your face in it either way.

I was reading this on NoeGAF and I can't help to think some of the opinions and posters hit the mark on the head to why this stuff is allowed to continue, and if we aren't allowed innovation, stagnation(not only in games, but as a society) is inevitable:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=511222 (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=511222)
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: TheCruelAngel on February 01, 2013, 03:35:25 PM
Well, if we want to talk about advancements in gameplay and innovation in the industry, my old professor from DigiPen has a pretty good webseries about it.

Extra Credits (http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/show/extra-credits)

The 3D action genre that we know today blossomed from a bug in a survival horror title (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_May_Cry_(video_game)#Development).

Also, creating something innovative and new is inherently cost prohibitive for major game companies, or to be released as a AAA title. It's something investors aren't comfortable investing in because there's no "guarantee" payoff. Something like Halo, Call of Duty or even Madden are "safe" because they're a tried and true formula (and sheep like that stuff).

But if we look at how things like, the modern multiplayer FPS, or MOAB games came about, they were from "indie developers" or specifically in those cases, modders! The two that come to mind are Counter-Strike and DOTA. Both of these were mods in already established game engines that created a new and unique play style that wasn't really available prior (CS introduced a gun purchasing system, different maps for different objectives, etc. If something else did it first, I'm unaware [and didn't play Tribes]). These two were copied and sometimes improved upon to create the titles we have now like LOL, DOTA 2, CS:GO, CoD:BO2, BF3, etc.

So, I'm rather confident that a lot of new genre development and innovation is going to come from indie development, and then brought into the AAA realm by a major publisher. I mean, it's been done before (http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2010/03/08/narbacular-drop.aspx).

I mean, yeah there's always going to be guys just doing all the copying because they have no real vision or they just want to be the next "whatever" without really changing anything to the status quo. It's just the nature of the "cash cow" mentality and people not really understanding or respecting the medium. There are people who only see the $$$, and only care about the $$$. For every John Carmack and Gabe Newell there's going to be a Robert Kotick. Is it fair? No, but when your medium surpasses other mediums in terms of revenue (http://games.slashdot.org/story/04/12/19/2350234/game-industry-bigger-than-hollywood), you're likely to get the greedy ones in there.

Is it going to change? Not while there's a gross amount of profit to be made. Basically, I'm trying to say industry giants are slow to move, there's a lot of "I wanna do this too because they made a lot of money!" and just plain greed. The little guys are who we are probably going to need to look out for in the future in terms of innovation and birthing new genres. And I do recommend supporting them with your praise and cash! ;D
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Kale on February 01, 2013, 04:19:08 PM
Let me remind you..... Game companies exist to make money. It also is the other way around, but why do people usually make a company? To make money for themselves.

That said, I don't use that excuse to excuse them screwing players over. But it does make sense in some decisions... most of the "bad" decision can't be defended that way though. Like exclusives, sure they probably got extra money from a company to do so, but I sort of doubt it is worth losing a fan base or potential sales.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on February 02, 2013, 12:03:55 AM
It isn't just the game companies that are bowing down to mediocrity just to make sales.
Look at the movie industry: sequels, threequels, prequels, spin offs, edited versions of existing stories, remakes, etc.
If you offer something new to the market, it is either people like your innovation or most likely, you will be shoved to the side to make way for the works of the big companies.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Abnormal Freak on February 02, 2013, 02:46:42 AM
It isn't just the game companies that are bowing down to mediocrity just to make sales.
Look at the movie industry: sequels, threequels, prequels, spin offs, edited versions of existing stories, remakes, etc.

And the same thing applies there: consumers will continue to throw money at mediocrity.

I'm a horror movie fan and I always hear horror fans complain about all the remakes instead of new properties; but the thing is, they go to see the latest Nightmare on Elm Street anyway, which is usually out of loyalty to the brand ("I've seen the rest, what the hell, guess I'll see this one, too") and/or they're starved for ANYTHING new in theaters in the horror field. I'll admit, I've done the latter once or twice. I saw the mediocre Fright Night remake simply because I was itching to see a horror movie in a theater. Brand loyalty I understand less, but I'm sometimes guilty there as well. Hey! I recently made a thread asking if I should play a recent Silent Hill!

In general, though, I try to only pay for things that will (hopefully) be really good; if something's a turd or not very worth my while, I won't bother. I kinda wish more people were like that...
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Kale on February 02, 2013, 06:19:36 AM
Even if that's the case, the media companies already have a set explanation if they do bad anyway. Piracy. Regardless if it's true or not, it's their back up explanation. And many many many people eat it up.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on February 02, 2013, 11:16:00 AM
Is it going to change? Not while there's a gross amount of profit to be made. Basically, I'm trying to say industry giants are slow to move, there's a lot of "I wanna do this too because they made a lot of money!" and just plain greed. The little guys are who we are probably going to need to look out for in the future in terms of innovation and birthing new genres. And I do recommend supporting them with your praise and cash! ;D
Oh, I found myself supporting indie games far more this generation than big-studio games. I find it interesting that my joy in this past generation has Indie projects which, I personally feel, encompass the spirit of what it means to be a "gamer" and what it means to "innovate gaming" in general.

It isn't just the game companies that are bowing down to mediocrity just to make sales.
Look at the movie industry: sequels, threequels, prequels, spin offs, edited versions of existing stories, remakes, etc.
If you offer something new to the market, it is either people like your innovation or most likely, you will be shoved to the side to make way for the works of the big companies.
It IS kinda strange because people kinda make it a point that innovation is really a gamble. Every choice one makes is a gamble, and let's not try to pretend that every sequel, prequel or reboot has done well. I would say the gamble is as fair as it is with a new project, 50/50. Either it's going to do well or it's going to bomb, franchise name or no-name aside. I would even say, in some cases, it would harm the franchise name. If you release a movie or game as a reboot of a classic franchise, then it does poorly, where does all that hope of reinvigorating a long dead property by breathing new life into it to(hopefully, propel it back into the mainstream spotlight) go? It's dead. If people hated the reboot, no chance they are going to want a sequel to the reboot. There goes all that planning, and because the new audience will associate the reboot's failure to the franchise as a whole, better open the vault and toss the property back in, because it's not going to be a while until we revisit it again.

Also, is it really any more risky NOW than it was, say, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, hell, even 100 years ago. The progression of our culture is marked on the innovations and failures of people. The risk has always been there, people are ALWAYS going to take chances and bankrupt companies if their innovative products fail. That never stopped people from going ahead and reaching for the stars. You can also say most of the staple franchise that are being milked and reboots, all were products of this "take a chance on innovation, let's do something different" back in the day, and when it hits, it HITS. That's probably what people don't see. They are all afraid of the negative side of it, but don't realize, if it becomes a hit, it has the chance of not only being big, but culturally significant(for it could very well be something new that changes the game, and people will be looking back on it for years to come, praising it for doing what it did).

As far as failures are concerned, one shouldn't be afraid of failure, because it's inevitable. You're going to fail in something, you are going to LOOSE something in your life. The safe route, and I say this about the current way of thinking, can only go on for so long. It was never meant to be the status quo. It's like being a boy in a plastic bubble in a world of sharp pointy things. That's actually more companies should preach to their employees. I feel, in the past decade or so, everybody's suddenly gotten more soft-skinned and afraid of everything. It's like we've entered the "over-protective mother" era.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Kingshango on February 02, 2013, 12:29:47 PM
Unfortunatly ambition no longer applies in the industry anymore. It's all about low risk high reward now and all companies want a piece of that pie. This is now a sink or swim time where one mistake could put you out of business and we lost wayyyy to many good developers over the of course of 7 years and the death toll continues to rise ( R.I.P Vigil ). There's a reason why im bowing out of next gen and settling on my current consoles and PC ( I might get a Wii U at a later date tho). The "AAA blockbuster" trend is not going to stop anytime soon. If anything next gen will by far be the safest gen we'll ever see and if the rumors about the Durango and Orbis ( Microsoft's and Sony's console successors) are true, it's not gonna be a pretty sight.

It's sad that ambition has been tossed aside and mediocrity is the new standard and I wish companies could just realise that it's possible to have an ambitious product that sell's, The Walking Dead and Journey are the best examples of this. Two indie games sweeped GOTY's in various media outlets beating out AAA games that were usually winners. Maybe the big companies will come to their senses one day and will start taking risks and making a profit without treating us like we're idiots.

Sorry if my ramble didn't make any sense.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on February 03, 2013, 06:29:43 AM
I feel, in the past decade or so, everybody's suddenly gotten more soft-skinned and afraid of everything. It's like we've entered the "over-protective mother" era.

We are in that era. Society now fears failure. Innovations even in other industries are fewer compared to several decades ago.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Ratty on February 03, 2013, 07:20:44 AM
Well if the the rumors about the mostly outdated and stagnant tech (barely if at all improved from this gen if rumors are to be believed) are true then there's a reason. AAA developers have become comfortable developing on this level, and it already takes millions of dollars and untold man hours to produce most of these $60 games. Games have to be big and expensive to catch the eye of the newly minted wider gaming audience.

I don't think stagnant tech in the new consoles is a good move though, if you're not going to innovate in gameplay or graphics well... it's been shown time and a again once the novelty of the tech wears off game sales slip because people start to realize they're playing the same game over and over again.

Speaking broadly, people before the 1983 game crash started to realize that almost every game coming out was a Space Invaders/Pac Man/Asteroids clone and sales sunk. In the 8bit era people started to realize that most games were just clones of Mario and a handful of other successful games, so the 16bit era had to roll in. And as the new of the graphics wears off even the bro gamers are starting to realize most big games coming out are just clones of Halo or Modern Warfare, and losing interest.

I understand being risk averse with such a huge investment, but the industry may be shooting itself in the foot or even inviting another crash here.

I don't think you get it, TheCruelAngel. It's all about The Big, Evil Corporation. The Big, Evil Corporation. Remember that.

There are no people; it's only fat-cat swindlers.

Well yeah that's basically the purpose of a corporation, to make as much money as possible by any means necessary while limiting the liability of individual investors or employees.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Kingshango on February 03, 2013, 09:24:02 AM
I don't think we're gonna see a crash like the one in 83, but I do see a crash in creativity. I have no doubt in my mind that both the rising development costs for HD gaming and the economic downturn are big factors of it.  Companies are piss scared that their next project could very well be their last and choose to either make a AAA blockbuster game that's basic and generic, or a iOS game that also basic and generic. People are anticipating that the next Sony and Microsoft consoles are going to be different and make gaming great again. But in reality, it's going to be the exact same shit only prettier with more particle effects. The games will still be the same AAA blockbuster nonsense with a QTE even before the game starts but people won't complain because the graphics look prettier.

Meanwhile there are developers who do want to make creative and fun games but they get tossed aside and either closed down or forced to migrate to mobile games.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Abnormal Freak on February 03, 2013, 10:22:57 AM
grasshopper manufacture just got acquired by another company so I'm kinda scared. SUDA51's one of the last bastions of true creativity in the gaming world and I'd hate to see his vision compromised to try and cater to dumbass gamers.

If nothing else, hopefully Killer Is Dead will be one last hurrah...
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: X on February 03, 2013, 08:07:18 PM
Nice roster of evil corporations TheCurelAngel. But Cyberdyne Systems wasn't evil like the others. It was simply a victim of an unknowable set of circumstances and a time causality loop.

Quote
We are in that era. Society now fears failure. Innovations even in other industries are fewer compared to several decades ago.

Undoubtedly true. Back in the day people weren't afraid of failure because everyone knew that in order to succeed you need to fail first. Our civilization wasn't built on success, it was built on failure. As humans we have no choice but to fail before we can succeed. It's the only real way we can learn from our mistakes. And sadly the 'big corporations' do not understand this let alone except it. If we're going to get back into the age of progress and discovery then we need to put our habitual greed of monetary consumption on the back burner for good.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Sonic_Reaper on February 03, 2013, 09:06:10 PM
Just a couple side notes before I get into a recent case study;

---

New IPs can be profitable.  Ultimately consumers are looking for quality.  This has never really changed.  Inception, for example, was a new movie IP and it did incredibly well.  It was simple, just a well told story, and the movie looked great, which of course helped.  People also seem to forget that at one point, every game was a new IP.  You have to start somewhere.  Beating an IP into the ground will only result in stagnation.

---

Ultimately, yes, business has degraded into a profit-loss/profit-gained venture.  There are example where a turd is a turd, but the company keeps trying.  Case in point, the Hulk and Superman movies.  Two Hulk reboots (for all intents and purposes) released closely together, because it wouldn't be possible to create avengers otherwise.  Superman is in the same boat.  And for those reasons I pray and hope it fails miserably (again).  The game industry can't necessarily operate in this fashion, because even the largest game houses don't have this amount of money to throw around.  A game has to recoup it's costs, at least, with little wiggle room.  This has had the latent effect of increasing the rise to stagnation and mediocrity.

---

A big problem in the industry is simply the emphasis on visual technology.  At what point do we say, enough is enough?  When is it TOO HD?  When are there TOO many polygons?  Because investment and development of this visual technology comes with astronomical associated costs.  I wouldn't be surprised if within the next couple decades we see a crash of sorts, with a resurface of major game developers creating games in style to 16, 32, 64 etc. consoles.

---

Piracy does not hurt the industry.  A person who would not have bought the product in the first place, whether because they had the money or otherwise, is not a potential loss of profit.  Those potential profits didn't exist in the first place.  Who are the primary pirates?  Poor ass people, yo.  People with money tend to spend it (I know there are exceptions, but they are a grave minority).  I want to add that I think at some point, old technology should naturally enter the realm of the public domain.  How many times should Square be "allowed" to release and profit from Chrono Trigger?  There's obviously no answer, but in other media, such as literature, work does eventually enter the public domain, free for all to enjoy.  I believe that games should be handled in the same manner.  This forces companies, up to a point, to foster and develop newer ideas, instead of constantly treading back to old ones.

---

The only way to stop corporate greed:  boycott.  We live in a free democracy.  Don't like something.  Boycott.  What happened after Rosa Parks refused to move to the back of the bus?  Society, largely white, was unmoved by this solemn act of defiance.  The true change came when large numbers of working black people (and possible other minorities) boycotted the bus service.  She made a stand, and there was an identifiable action that affected the offending parties.  If you don't like a game, or game company because of their practices, boycott.  Companies will always do whatever they want.  Don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise.  Hit them where it hurts.

---

Which brings me to a recent case study.  FF:  All the Bravest.  What is this I don't even?  Even though I stopped being a fan around the Parasite Eve era (and hated any FF post VI), I at least thought they were a company that cared about their fans and were held in high regard.  But this game, proves to me (as did FFXIV to an extent), that they, like many others, no longer care about honesty, respect or accountability.  It's sickening, really.  Arrogant, even.  It occurs to me that Square largely feels they can "get away" with this kind of abhorrent penny-pinching under the guise of a quick and easy on-the-go hand held product.  But that doesn't excuse it.  If you're unfamiliar with the game, please read one (of many) scathing review(s), and I urge you all to boycott the shit out of FF: ATB.

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/01/18/final-fantasy-all-the-bravest-review (http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/01/18/final-fantasy-all-the-bravest-review)
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Kale on February 04, 2013, 05:19:41 AM
I have to wonder what their profit on that game is...

I think you're missing out by not playing 9 at least. It's very reminiscent of the older FF games. I also liked 7 for it's combat system, 8 overall, and tactics overall.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: TheCruelAngel on February 04, 2013, 09:45:58 AM
Hurrah for another fan of VIII! I seriously run into more haters of VIII but turn around and adore X, who then in turn hate on XIII, despite it being just as linear and with less interesting characters! >_< WRRRRRYYY~

Though, I know a lot of old school FF fans (as in I-VI) also tend to adore Tactics, so I do recommend it as well.

But I think Square is a good example of a company that's run off of it's mark and definitely...just trying to make money. I think a lot of that is tied with Hironobu Sakaguchi leaving the company and starting Mist Walker (Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey and The Last Story are win!), he was a lot of the life blood in Square and you can tell that after he left a lot of the...I don't know what to say but..."quality"? had gone down. I think you can tell they're trying really hard to make another "VII" since it was such a huge blockbuster hit (it's super apparent with XIII), and instead of trying to create something new and exciting, they're just trying to revise the glory days because they think it will print them money.

I also have to wonder what a huge blunder like FFXIV did to Square and how they'll start moving forward when it comes to new games (as opposed to rehashes of old games). I mean, I bought FFXIV since I thought it would be sweet like FFXI, but the quality just wasn't there. I'm tentative about FFXIV: Realm Reborn...but I'll probably try it, since I was dumb enough to buy it the first time around. To go with someone's comment earlier, FFXIV, for all intents and purposes was a failure. And I think Square is at least slightly smart enough to learn from their failures. I hope the failure was a good slap to the face and will open their eyes to see the state of the market, their company and what consumers want.

Because somehow Sakaguchi still knows!  8) Seriously, guy is so boss.
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.chzbgr.com%2Fcompletestore%2F2010%2F11%2F7%2Fb0f1a9f3-c5c2-4cd3-9444-6bfdcf0ecc99.jpg&hash=5e8023b89a04ccd034f9cf3872ca78b3)
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Ratty on February 04, 2013, 10:40:09 AM
Yeah you're missing out if you skip Final Fantasy 9. It's the last hoorah for traditional non sci-fi style Final Fantasy. It was originally going to be a spinoff but the quality was such that they made it a numbered game. Plus I think Sakaguchi once said it was his favorite in the series, though that could have just been for advertising.
Seriously though great characters, touching story. Some of the best artwork and music on the PSX. Worth playing to say the least.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: son_the_vampire on February 04, 2013, 12:30:01 PM
worth playing indeed! i never got to beat ozma though! that was a tough opti boss lol
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Sonic_Reaper on February 04, 2013, 07:19:02 PM
well for the record because people keep mentioning them;  FFIX was alright.  Never finished it.  Lost interest after awhile.  I will say that I appreciated the characters.  They were much better defined from the shallow holes masquerading as characters in VII and VIII, and the game itself had a much more light hearted feel, which IMO, it benefited from.  Especially after the migraine inducing emo fest that was VII and VIII.  As to why I lost interest, not really sure why. 

Tactics is and was amazing.  I have personally spent over 1000 hours on the PS game, nevermind the iOS version, or the online tournaments I've partaken in.  It too, though, just lost it's glimmer for me.  Mind you, that was after exploring it to the depths and beyond, multiple times over.  The only reason I don't play it anymore, is because I just literally played way too much of it.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on February 05, 2013, 01:38:09 AM
Yeah you're missing out if you skip Final Fantasy 9. It's the last hoorah for traditional non sci-fi style Final Fantasy. It was originally going to be a spinoff but the quality was such that they made it a numbered game. Plus I think Sakaguchi once said it was his favorite in the series, though that could have just been for advertising.
Seriously though great characters, touching story. Some of the best artwork and music on the PSX. Worth playing to say the least.

If I remember correctly, I think it was also written on the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary History Book at the Interviews section.
Personally, I like 9 the best. I really love the plot of this FF.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Kale on February 05, 2013, 10:23:07 AM
I hated Necro(Did I get that right?) though, he seemed to just popped out of nowhere, and said I'm the boss, beat me!
9 was awesome for me because of 2 things.... Vivi, and the Black Waltz! Okay, maybe 3, the Bahamut Alexander fight was awesome.....
I hated FF13 though. And while I liked some of FFX, most of it was meh. Gotta love the To Zanarkand theme though.

Final Fantasy X OST : To Zanarkand (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-0G_FI61a8#)

I also really liked Lost Odyssey, but I never beat it. I kept getting stuck at one place or another then I stop. Can't say the same for Blue Dragon though.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: son_the_vampire on February 05, 2013, 01:02:05 PM
I hated Necro(Did I get that right?) though, he seemed to just popped out of nowhere, and said I'm the boss, beat me!
9 was awesome for me because of 2 things.... Vivi, and the Black Waltz! Okay, maybe 3, the Bahamut Alexander fight was awesome.....
I hated FF13 though. And while I liked some of FFX, most of it was meh. Gotta love the To Zanarkand theme though.

Final Fantasy X OST : To Zanarkand (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-0G_FI61a8#)

I also really liked Lost Odyssey, but I never beat it. I kept getting stuck at one place or another then I stop. Can't say the same for Blue Dragon though.
blitzball was great. never beat shinryuu :::::snaps fingers
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on February 06, 2013, 08:42:31 PM
Final Fantasy is a shell of what it used to be. Doesn't help that they have someone like Toriyama in a place to make vital decisions about things when he should just be an event director with little to no actual input regarding the story or general direction of the series. His writing's barfferoni. Love Spoony's rant on the game(most of it is pure nitpicking fun, but he does make some interest points and I totally agree with his loathing for the writer, Toriyama):

http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/12/15/final-fantasy-xiii-part-1/ (http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/12/15/final-fantasy-xiii-part-1/)
http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/12/31/final-fantasy-xiii-part-2/ (http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/12/31/final-fantasy-xiii-part-2/)

It's funny, because many rag on Sakaguchi and how his MistWalker games aren't close to being FF good, but after I played The Last Story, while it might not be the best RPG esperience ever, and certainly not the most original, there was something about it that, at it's soul/spirit, felt like what was missing from the FF series for a LONG time.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: TheCruelAngel on February 07, 2013, 08:25:06 AM
Sakaguchi really is a missing element from the FF series, and I think long time fans can really feel it when they play through the games.

And yeah, while The Last Story isn't the end all be all RPG experience, it has so much charm and character that you really can't help but love it.  :)

Also, Square Enix is posting bad numbers again (http://www.joystiq.com/2013/02/05/square-enix-posts-62-million-nine-month-net-loss-net-sales-up/). =\ I wonder how this bodes for (imo) development hell Final Fantasy Versus XIII.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on February 07, 2013, 12:08:31 PM
Sakaguchi really is a missing element from the FF series, and I think long time fans can really feel it when they play through the games.

And yeah, while The Last Story isn't the end all be all RPG experience, it has so much charm and character that you really can't help but love it.  :)

Also, Square Enix is posting bad numbers again (http://www.joystiq.com/2013/02/05/square-enix-posts-62-million-nine-month-net-loss-net-sales-up/). =\ I wonder how this bodes for (imo) development hell Final Fantasy Versus XIII.
It's funny, because I see a lot of people online saying the same thing, "Make and release games the fans are asking for, don't make games NOBODY'S asking for!". I don't think anybody truly wanted a FFXIII-2, because the end of the first one was pretty closed-ended(even though certain characters were rendered into a specific "object"). You'd think, logically, if a game does well(FFXIII, for being bad, did alright), the next logical step(since FFXIV was obviously going to be MMORPG) would be to focus on a sequel to the SERIES, not to FFXIII specifically. I think the "direct sequel" thing was what really started to annoy me. FFX-2 being the first one to churn my stomach. It just felt like an obvious sellout move, in the way Disney did in the late Eisner years when we got crap like Cinderella 2 and Aladdin 3. Who really wanted Lady and the Tramp 6?! I don't give a friggin DAMN about Ariel's daughter. For me, when the original movie ends, finito, that's it. Move on to the next new movie. Same for Final Fantasy. Square, IMO, needs someone to shake up their sensabilities like when Eisner left Disney. Someone to come in and try to put the pieces back together. I think Wada's one of the main culprit hindering Square.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: TheCruelAngel on February 07, 2013, 01:56:43 PM
I would argue, to an extent, that Nomura doesn't help much either. Another horrible entity that, I think, is really stifling Square are the fans.

Now, I don't mean casual fans of Final Fantasy, or long term old school fans, who understand that each Final Fantasy should be unique and there shouldn't be any direct sequels. Once the game is done, you're done with that world. I mean, rabbid horrible fans that live, breathe and eat materia for breakfast.

You know the type I'm talking about; "We want more Final Fantasy VII!" "Where's Final Fantasy VII HD?" "Kyaa~ Sephiroth and Cloud are my waifu/husbando, otp, etc. etc." They cry the loudest and foulest when a FF title doesn't meet the criteria for their penultimate FF, since clearly they have the most sugoi taste (yeah, now I'm getting out of hand).

Who care if FFVII has dated graphics? It still works, you can easily get it on PSN, and possibly Steam in the future. Square has better, and more deserving titles that could use a HD remake (and in all honesty, none of them need it, because rose-tinted glasses). I understand world building is difficult business, and takes a large amount of time, but I think a lot of FFXIII's world was superfluous. FFIX's world wasn't that intricate with all sorts of weird terms, rules, etc.; and I don't think anyone really cared.

I think, for a lot of us FF fans from yesteryear, we enjoyed a compelling, and at some times, deep story. Exploring a skewed version of our world with fantastic technology, magic, or even magi-tech! Combat was never super deep, and we could always grind for hours on end to make any battle a breeze. We loved the music, the art, the characters. So...where has it all gone? Why am I suddenly trudging through a hallway where everyone is talking about these...weirdly named things? Sure the combat is unique and can be excited, but...what do I care about these people? One's a whiny brat who can't express himself, the other a half-cocked show off to cover his uncertainty. What do I care about the fate of their... Cocoon? Is that...a planet? Country? Oh wait, it's a giant biosphere thing...in the sky...with airships inside of it? What?

Back in...2005? We heard about XIII, Versus XIII and how they were going to share stuff together, and it was kind of exciting. Especially since XII was kind of a let down (it would of done a lot better on better hardware, i.e. more RAM for more environment and less loading). Then XIII came out back in...2010? Still no Versus XIII, and the title, was again, a bit of a let down. XIV came out shortly after and was a major let down. So...where was the announcement for XV (I imagine it's being held off for PS4/720 development)?

Financially, I can understand why they're doing sequels and not main series. For each new title, Square develops a new engine, from scratch (I imagine) and develops technology for that series based around that engine. So with something like FFX-2, FFXIII-2 and Lighting Returns: FFXIII, rehashing your old code, making a couple new assets, etc. is cheaper...but it's not something us fans really want.

Kojima Pro ran into this when developing MGS4, and so they created a new engine (FOX engine) that is more flexible. I believe Capcom did the same thing with their Unity engine. I hope Square uses this approach and create a dynamic and flexible engine that they can use across multiple platforms and to develop a variety of different titles. =\
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on February 07, 2013, 10:39:14 PM
I would argue, to an extent, that Nomura doesn't help much either. Another horrible entity that, I think, is really stifling Square are the fans.

Now, I don't mean casual fans of Final Fantasy, or long term old school fans, who understand that each Final Fantasy should be unique and there shouldn't be any direct sequels. Once the game is done, you're done with that world. I mean, rabbid horrible fans that live, breathe and eat materia for breakfast.

You know the type I'm talking about; "We want more Final Fantasy VII!" "Where's Final Fantasy VII HD?" "Kyaa~ Sephiroth and Cloud are my waifu/husbando, otp, etc. etc." They cry the loudest and foulest when a FF title doesn't meet the criteria for their penultimate FF, since clearly they have the most sugoi taste (yeah, now I'm getting out of hand).

Who care if FFVII has dated graphics? It still works, you can easily get it on PSN, and possibly Steam in the future. Square has better, and more deserving titles that could use a HD remake (and in all honesty, none of them need it, because rose-tinted glasses). I understand world building is difficult business, and takes a large amount of time, but I think a lot of FFXIII's world was superfluous. FFIX's world wasn't that intricate with all sorts of weird terms, rules, etc.; and I don't think anyone really cared.

I think, for a lot of us FF fans from yesteryear, we enjoyed a compelling, and at some times, deep story. Exploring a skewed version of our world with fantastic technology, magic, or even magi-tech! Combat was never super deep, and we could always grind for hours on end to make any battle a breeze. We loved the music, the art, the characters. So...where has it all gone? Why am I suddenly trudging through a hallway where everyone is talking about these...weirdly named things? Sure the combat is unique and can be excited, but...what do I care about these people? One's a whiny brat who can't express himself, the other a half-cocked show off to cover his uncertainty. What do I care about the fate of their... Cocoon? Is that...a planet? Country? Oh wait, it's a giant biosphere thing...in the sky...with airships inside of it? What?

Back in...2005? We heard about XIII, Versus XIII and how they were going to share stuff together, and it was kind of exciting. Especially since XII was kind of a let down (it would of done a lot better on better hardware, i.e. more RAM for more environment and less loading). Then XIII came out back in...2010? Still no Versus XIII, and the title, was again, a bit of a let down. XIV came out shortly after and was a major let down. So...where was the announcement for XV (I imagine it's being held off for PS4/720 development)?

Financially, I can understand why they're doing sequels and not main series. For each new title, Square develops a new engine, from scratch (I imagine) and develops technology for that series based around that engine. So with something like FFX-2, FFXIII-2 and Lighting Returns: FFXIII, rehashing your old code, making a couple new assets, etc. is cheaper...but it's not something us fans really want.

Kojima Pro ran into this when developing MGS4, and so they created a new engine (FOX engine) that is more flexible. I believe Capcom did the same thing with their Unity engine. I hope Square uses this approach and create a dynamic and flexible engine that they can use across multiple platforms and to develop a variety of different titles. =\
I think, sometimes, the minimalist approach works better than trying to make a story and world so complex, chocked full of ideas, it becomes just too much to handle. I can understand, you have an imagination, Toriyama. Imagination is a great and wonderful thing, but you gotta know how to focus. You can't just pop out ideas and try to stuff as much as you can into a game or game world. Especially if it hinders the story. I recall people saying, "Oh, FFXIII's story makes sense to why they don't explain everything, because not only do the characters KNOW about their world's 'logic', the fast paced story(as in, they are on the run and don't have time to smell the roses) doesn't allow it!". Still, though, you have to think, any REAL, capable writer not only COULD squeeze in exposition to let the player(who is unfamiliar with the world) in on everything without resorting to the lazyass cliffnotes datalog, a REAL writer could do it so good WHILE retaining the pacing of the story.

When I think of Toriyama, I think of this guy who, while the team is hard at work developing the game, he comes in every hour and says, "Hey guys, I have another new idea. Let's add THIS into the mix!". So, basically, he's just making stuff up as they go along, which results in this total hodgepodge of a monstrosity that is just kinda just schlumped together, with caution blown to the wind. He makes up the rules as they go along, which is pretty obvious with FFXIII-2. Chances are, Lightning Returns will bring up it's own unique set of rules that differ from that of both FFXIII and FFXIII-2. In the end, it's just Toriyama ex Machina.

I agree with the rabid FF fans. I really hate those guys. Though, you get fans like that with a lot of series. They are the gamers equivalent to kids who want candy for breakfast, lunch and dinner. You know, it's bad for kids to eat that much candy. It's one of those things you just shouldn't encourage. The lack of self control and balance really wrecks everything good in life. I mean, trends are a great example. Trends usually start off on the heels of a dying, previous trend. The new trend is fresh, and get's people's attention because it's different from the previous trend, and becomes big. Then, people within the trend want more, and more, and MORE. Oversaturation of the trend leads to overkill. The trend's days are numbered because, quite frankly, people can't control themselves. Of course, companies(be it music, fashion and such) play into the trend. It's like addict mentality. There's no savoring something good, no moderation. It's all gorging until you get sick of it. That sort of quality of humanity churns my stomach. It's like we are our own worst enemies. We wonder why we can't have good things, and it's apparent WE are the reason why we can't have good things.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: TheCruelAngel on February 08, 2013, 09:31:44 AM
(click to show/hide)

Here, here. +1, couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Lashen on February 08, 2013, 10:47:41 AM
FFV is the greatest thing ever. <_<
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Gunlord on February 17, 2013, 08:28:05 PM
Some really fascinating discussion here...while it's been a while since I played an FF game, I do have something to say about the article in Jorge's post. While the article *that* links back to is somewhat overblown (unethical videogame companies aren't exactly on the same level of harm as, say, unethical pharmaceutical companies), it raises fair points. However, I'd say that even if companies exist only to make money, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll abuse their consumers. I'm not the naive sort who believes that nice guys always finish first or that underhanded business strategies can never work, but some of the most moneygrubbing jerks in the industry have found themselves in dire straits as of late. Look at Zynga--run by a guy who once said, "I don't fucking want innovation," it started to slow down some in 2012, partially due to declining sales of its games. Bilking the consumer is not *necessarily* the best way to make money.

(BTW, Jorge, may I quote you, if necessary, in a blog post I hope to write soon? :D)
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on February 17, 2013, 08:29:20 PM
I don't mind being quoted.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Abnormal Freak on February 17, 2013, 09:39:48 PM
So long as you cite him as Boy Jorge, Sex Kitten on the Prowl.
Title: Re: The game company apologist ("Companies Exist to Make Money" excuse)
Post by: Ratty on February 17, 2013, 11:24:26 PM
While the article *that* links back to is somewhat overblown (unethical videogame companies aren't exactly on the same level of harm as, say, unethical pharmaceutical companies), it raises fair points. However, I'd say that even if companies exist only to make money, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll abuse their consumers.

Yeah I don't think the argument intended to suggest that unethical game companies are as bad as an unethical pharmaceutical companies. But that doesn't mean it isn't still bad to treat your consumers as antagonistically and with as little respect as big companies like EA and Activision are often want to do. The existence of companies like Valve show that you can still make loads of cash without treating your customers like shit. Speaking of shit Jim Sterling (who wrote that original article) started off his video blog about this subject with a strange bit of poop-centered Dead Space fanfiction. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6814-Companies-Exist-To-Make-Money (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6814-Companies-Exist-To-Make-Money)