Topic: An Extremely Detailed Review (with some defense!) of Portrait of Ruin

[thernz]

If you flipped PoR's levels, they'd probably mostly play the same anyway.

[Joachim]

How exactly is lazily pressing "Flip horizontal" in MSPaint more creative?

how is lazily repeating the exact same design ideas and layouts over and over again creative?

[Ridureyu]

how is lazily repeating the exact same design ideas and layouts over and over again creative?

I dunno, it worked well in... Symphony of the Night!!!!

Seriously.  "it's a totally different level, but with the same background tiles" versus "It's turned upside-down. Miraculously, the game still works." But since after I pointed out that those aren't all "the same levels," but you refuse to acknowledge this fact, then I guess this part of the conversation is at an end.


Actually, Order of Ecclesia's castle level would work pretty well if flipped upside-down, especially the clock tower with the way the spikes and magnes points are.

[Joachim]

Seriously.  "it's a totally different level, but with the same background tiles" versus "It's turned upside-down. Miraculously, the game still works."

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. are you trying to assert that the first is portrait, whereas the second is symphony, or are you trying to assert that they're both symphony? the first interpretation suffers from the fact that, within that context neither of the statements are true; the second interpretation suffers from the fact that it fundamentally misunderstands the obvious nature of Symphony's castle. It was designed with the inverted castle in mind from the very start - it wasn't just flipped because they couldn't think of anything else to do. This is obvious if you look at the design of the castle itself. that, and the second interpretation offers nothing in the form of a conclusion or observation.

ps:
you completely ignored my previous post, and with it, much of the context of what i was alluding to. here, i'll make it easy for you to understand.

previous post:
---------------------------------------------------------

I was about to post a longer response, but then I looked back and realized you pretty much only post to troll me.  "talk about pwned."  Right. There's decently disagreeing, and there's... I guess you got offended on a personal level because of something I said?

...you actually think there was some kind of personal offense, there? no. i reply to things when i feel a compulsion to do so: generally, if i have something to say. this forum does little to interest or stimulate me anymore, and i'll be honest even you only tend to do so on a cursory level - hence, why i couldn't be bothered to post anything more than that before. you failed to admit your mistake and were called out on it.

trolling is a matter of deception - this is hardly deception. this is disagreement, discussion; criticism.

I don't know man, it's not any stage that can be flip-turned upside-down and still be playable.

this is what i was getting at. they put more work into designing that one castle than they did the entirety of Portrait of Ruin's level design.

Dark Academy is a complete change from Forest of Doom, and not just because it goes right-to-left instead of left-to-right (hey, something's flipped, too!).  Different room layout,m no underground, different outdoor locations, different secrets, different atmospheric things, and completely different boss chamber.

again, these are completely superficial alterations. the level looks different (technically, so does the inverted castle), and its design is arranged differently, but the design was never interesting to begin with. no matter how different it is, it offers no difference in approach because the levels never elevate themselves beyond just big rectangles and squares. it doesn't matter if something is technically different, it matters how different it is, and what the quality of those differences are.

Certainly not the Keep, and really not the clock tower.

it certainly works, but for a different reason. it lacks the same sense of ease of flow the original castle did, because this one is trying to force you to actually use the abilities you've attained intelligently. in those cases, the level design was not designed for you; it was designed for itself, and you simply have to go through it. its intentionally challenging you with something difficult to navigate, on a conceptual level - which is more than i can say of anything we've had since, aside from some of OoE's more brilliant moments. in many ways, it is kind of the level design equivalent of Harmony's soundtrack - difficult to wrap your head around, but still brilliantly constructed.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

"Joachim" brings up some interesting points, specifically regarding the overall design.  However...

this forum does little to interest or stimulate me anymore

Right, it does so little to interest you that you evade a long-term ban and log in from an alternate account to post, Giz.
Well, if it's so uninteresting, then be gone from it and do not return.  I've been waiting for a reason to ban you again, and you just gave it to me.  Good day.

[thernz]

por left sotn right

[Ridureyu]

P.S. I do love Symphony. But almost lal of its flaws come with the inverted castle, even though it IS fun.  The thing is, there are really five (well, four) MetroidVanias that REALLY re-use stuff.


Symphony of the Night has the inverted castle.  The game design is such that it's still okay, although there are some issues (most involving lack of plot and levelling imbalance)

Harmony of Dissonance has Castle B.  In SOME rooms, the changes are awesome.  In others, practically indistinguishable. it's easy to forget what's where.

Aria of Sorrow has the Abyss.  The Abyss sucks in Aria of Sorrow, although at least it has good enemies.  It's only a small place, though.

Portrait of Ruin has the last four paintings. Recycled graphic design, but (mostly) new maps.  The circus area is just about the same, though.

Order of Ecclesia reuses MOST "stage" templates once.  You have two forests, two mountain roads, two big houses, two mountain/cave paths, two underwater areas...

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

SotN needs moar horizontal mirroring.

[Ridureyu]

Fun thing to do with the Duplicator:

Equip Meal Tickets on both hands.  FOOD FOUNTAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Munchy]

Well...

And these were all from just one thread.  Which wasn't even about Portrait of Ruin.

Hey!!! It's me!!! Yaaaay I'm famous1111

My main complaint was the lack of globetrotting that Bloodlines did a lot of. I did complain as well about the lack of utilization of the WWII setting, but yeah, story has never been Castlevania's strong suit, so it's not like PoR is unique here. (And boooy would that have caused localization problems in Europe.)

[Ridureyu]

Yeah, it could've used fsome WWII bits.  Thich brings up the question about those portraits.  ARE you travelling around the world?  The last portrait takes you to a physical location, not a made-up world inside the painting.  Or is it a bit of both?  I mean, City of Haze is very clearly Victorian London. And since this is Castlevania, they probably meant 1940s London.  13th Street is also probably London, although I'm almost willing to bet they thought it was "New York."  Forest of Doom always struck me as Germany's Black Forest, the circus stages are war-torn France (likely), and Egypt is obvious.

Hm, a thought.  Brauner really resembles Orlok from Nosferatu.  Nosferatu was produced in the 1920s.  Did Brauner become a vampire before then and influence the movie, or was it just happy coincidence?

[thernz]

I don't think they should've used the portrait idea at all. It just made the areas so detached. That was kinda a flaw in OoE too with the world map. There wasn't a cohesive bind between the areas, which I think is pretty important to a metrovania's level structure.

[Munchy]

Well, I think Brauner was named for the WWII era painter Victor Brauner, who... looked more like Bela Lugosi Dracula anyway, last time I checked. Who knows.

One of the things I love about Castlevania are all these little bits of trivia that turn out to be bizarrely influenced by real-life trivia. If that makes sense.

This reminds me, I kinda wish some new Castlevania would use those film-reel holes on the sides of the screen for an introduction. I loved that touch in the first three.

[Ridureyu]

That is totally awesome.  So, Gille de Rais(how is that pronounced again? Jee-de-rye?), Elizabeth Bathory(Bartly. hehehe) and Victor Brauner walk into a bar...

[Renonsgoods]

You know you're taking these games too seriously when you start criticizing level geometry in such minute detail.  Or maybe I'm just a lot simpler when it comes to what I enjoy in these games.....I'm usually too busy killing and jumping to worry about how fantastic/dull the shape of the rooms are.  PoR, OoE, SotN....all very fun games, and all very solid additions to the Metroidvania legacy IMO.  They all still take a back seat to SCIV, but I digress...