Topic: Chaos and Dracula

[Nagumo]

Does anyone still have the scans for Ricordanza of the God's Abyss? If so, I'd like to take a look at it.

[theplottwist]

Continuation from this discussion.

The point remains that neither Chaos nor chaos has sway over Dracula, however...
There is nothing that implies that Dracula is somehow subservient to chaos, the creature, or chaos, the evil of humanity

Considering Dracula constantly rambles about doing what he does because humanity calls him to it, this point far from stands. Later games just expand upon the "mechanics" of how humanity forces him to do it, and it's far from consensual. Quote from IGA's interview about Dracula's resurrection:

(click to show/hide)

Developers disclose Dracula's secret #3
The reason for the transformation resulting in resurrection:

Interviewer: In SOTN, Dracula was defeated but why is he still being resurrected in the later eras?

IGA: When someone is sealed in the Demon Realm only the evil part of that person is amplified. Whenever cult members perform the resurrection ritual, if Dracula himself is not willing, it is supposed that only the evil intent is resurrected.
However, it is thought of that Dracula will be given eternal repose someday.

In simpler terms: Not only chaos holds sway over Dracula through the evil intent, but if he chooses not to heed the calling of chaos, it forces Dracula to resurrect and replaces his will with the evil intent. The above interview explains why Dracula kept returning as a psychopath after his apparent repenting on SotN -- it's chaos forcing him to through the evil intent because we know from Aria it's chaos powering this evil intent. You may try to argue that he's revived as an evil husk without a soul: doesn't work like that. IGA's "Dracula will have eternal repose someday" line is very clear that he's not getting any repose. Plus, the Dominance -- the power to rule -- is bound to Dracula's soul. So it's a very important soul having a very important part of the "Demon King" equation. It IS really Dracula in there, his willpower taking the backseat to chaos driving the car through his evil intent, using him to command the demons while he waits for his "eternal repose".

And if you think I'm asspulling, again I cite Julius: He feels Soma's intent/spirit fighting the evil intent/spirit trying to take hold of his body. If Soma loses, he too becomes a passenger on his own car, now hijacked by chaos, his spirit erased by the evil intent. It takes BOTH evil intent and Dracula's soul to make the Demon King manifest.

So, you either play your part as the Demon King, or chaos will mind-rape you into doing it.

In summary: Aria shows that Soma has to fight the evil intent taking hold of him (which is a separate entity from himself as noted by Julius Belmont and Arikado, mind you), that Arikado has to keep this evil intent in check long enough for Soma to succeed, and shows that if he fails he turns evil. Against his will. And you still think Chaos holds no sway over Dracula at all?

Well, if you're not convinced now, nothing can convince you anymore.

We know that Dracula's power comes from the Crimson Stone

There is no source confirming the Crimson Stone grants any power beyond immortality and cursing the user with vampirism. It can't even steal a soul, as we see Death having to do it for the stone to be complete.

If chaos indeed was his source of power in such a literal way, he would have no need of amassing power in the first place

I don't quite get what you mean here, because one thing does not follow from the other. Becoming the Demon King is not a result of the amassing power.

Dracula amassed power before his pact with the Evil God, but he still needed the pact to enact his ultimate vengeance plan. CVIII explains that his pact was specifically because he wanted to go above and beyond and gain control over the legions of darkness. And again, to be the Demon King one doesn't need to "amass power" (more on that on the next point).

Sorry, but I don't think the multiple sources I posted require any interpretation. Chaos is stated time and again to be Dracula's power source.

I think it's more of a case of "chaos created evil creatures because humanity is evil/wished for it, Dracula killed a lot of them to become more powerful."

Literally explained to not be the case starting at CVIII. Dracula gained command over the evil creatures overnight, through a pact, not through admitedly badass devil-slaying. And it was cemented as canon by the CoD manga. He made a pact, BOOM, master of evil able to summon demons to Earth at will with a sweet-ass connection to infinite MP.

Also, Dracula lived peacefully between LoI and CVIII. So no badass devil-slaying in here either. Furthermore, your reasoning of how chaos could be the source of Dracula's power (by killing a lot of monsters) does not explain how the castle is a product of chaos. The castle is not a monster, nor Dracula is ever said to "kill a castle". The castle is made of the stuff.
 
DoS also shows pretty much what you have to do to become the Demon King: Have the Dominance, not "amassing huge power". In fact, it makes a point of saying that "having great power" is nearly irrelevant to the equation when Dmitri learns from Dracula's memories that the Demon King is not someone who has inherited magical powers, but someone who has the same ability as Soma has. They inherited Dracula's magical powers and thought themselves to be Dark Lord Candidates, but Dmitri realizes they were mistaken.

Dmitri failed to understand that Dominance comes from a pact, though. He cheated (by copying Soma's Dominance), therefore he fucked himself over and couldn't control anything.

DoS ends on the note that, if a Demon King is needed, one will appear. The effort is a simple as "surrender your body to become a vessel to ultimate evil". Granted, having huge power may give you the lead on the race for becoming the Demon King, but without the pact you're nothing.

If chaos was indeed the source of all evil or of all of Dracula's power so directly, why would it need Dracula in the first place?

Why would it need Death (read the novel)? Why would it need to influence the evil intent? Why would it need monsters? Or a castle?

Well, it's quite simple: The Demon King is the representative of evil on Earth. Arikado explains Soma can find chaos on the castle because the castle is currently on a spiritual plane. CVIII explains that the demons Dracula commands need to be summoned to Earth. Connect the dots here: Chaos needs a harbinger on the physical plane because not even its monsters can manifest on Earth without external effort, as it seems they spawn on the Demon Realm by default.

Also, again shown by the novel, chaos has a "calling" -- implying it needs something from someone. A will. So it being completelly mindless is very debatable.

We're not writing something that has not been solidified, keep this in mind. There is a chaos and it produced a Death, and one of the games goes as far as saying Death is following a greater force than Dracula's, quite likely referring to Chaos. So, while I can't say why it needs Dracula without delving into conjecture-territory, it very clearly DOES need Dracula, and needs Death to find it a master in the likelihood there isn't one.

[AlexCalvo]

While certainly not as detailed in my mind, this is essentially what I got from the games.  I always figured Chaos was the "evil deity" mentioned in Cv3's manual that Dracula makes a pact with.  I never bought that the crimson stone retconned that, because Iga was always so beholden to Cv3 and it's continuity.  Adding plenty, but taking away very little.

[Nagumo]

Does anyone still have the scans for Ricordanza of the God's Abyss? If so, I'd like to take a look at it.

I merged this topic and another topic I made myself but my post ended up at the top of the page. Quoting this for clarity's sake. 

[theplottwist]

I merged this topic and another topic I made myself but my post ended up at the top of the page. Quoting this for clarity's sake.

If someone has it, it's Shiroi.

[Nagumo]

I found a description of Chaos in the AoS NTT-PUB Official Guide.

蒼真の中に、 ドラキュラの邪悪な意志を目覚めさせつつあるもの。

A being who is awakening Dracula's evil will inside Soma.

Nothing is mentioned about it being a source of Dracula's power. Personally, I think there isn't anything more to it than what's said in the description.  It wouldn't serve much of a point. Not in the plot of AoS nor in the story of the series as a whole. Chaos already has a clear role in the story and LoI already did an adequate job of explaining how Dracula obtained his magical powers. Adding Chaos on top of that makes things convoluted and just isn't neccessary. That's why I'm very skeptical about this.   

From SotN:

アルカード
　････････。ドラキュラ城は、混沌の産物だ。その姿は一つではない。
Alucard:
This castle is a product of chaos. Its shape is not singular.

I think you're interpreting this too literally. It seems to me "混沌の"  is supposed to be an adjective. So it's more like: "Dracula's  castle is a chaotic creation".   

There's still the matter of the novel, of course, but I think there's enough reason for doubt.   

[theplottwist]

I found a description of Chaos in the AoS NTT-PUB Official Guide.
 
A being who is awakening Dracula's evil will inside Soma.

Nothing is mentioned about it being a source of Dracula's power.

Nothing is also mentioned about it being Dracula's evil will personified, right? Also nothing is mentioned about the monsters (such as Death who has an entire novel written about this subject) being born from it, too. Also nothing is said about it being sealed with the castle in 1999, or it being the root of all chaotic things. Julius' description omits the crucial information he destroyed Dracula in 1999, too.

You know very well this argument does not work in face of we knowing these kinds of information are not built from enemy lists alone, much less in one single game/media, Nagumo. "It says nothing about" doesn't mean "it says the opposite".

Also, it's thanks to this source I know at least the AoS final boss is an actual being, not just an abstract "inside Soma". I've known it for a while now, just ask Shiroi.

Personally, I think there isn't anything more to it than what's said in the description.  It wouldn't serve much of a point. Not in the plot of AoS nor in the story of the series as a whole.

Suddenly the novel is no longer canon and the point is irrelevant to the series, is this how it is?

If it didn't serve "much of a point", you'd not be trying to prove yours, first by wanting scans of the novel, then by going after Chaos' obscure enemy list description.

Yes, I get that you are saying this from your point of view. But I also have one: It has quite a lot more to it than a two-line description that doesn't confirm nor denies anything, and is VERY MUCH important to the plot of the entire series. Handwaving it as "not important" comes back to bite you...

Not in the plot of AoS nor in the story of the series as a whole. Chaos already has a clear role in the story and LoI already did an adequate job of explaining how Dracula obtained his magical powers. Adding Chaos on top of that makes things convoluted and just isn't neccessary. That's why I'm very skeptical about this.

...right here.

LoI not ONCE tried to explain how Dracula obtained his magical powers. Crimson Stone = Eternal Life + Vampire Curse, not "magical powers". Chaos = Eternal Fuel + Infernal army. It's that simple. Him knowing a lot of magic doesn't mean he has access to an infinite stream of hatred mojo to cast it, which is where Chaos comes in.

Dracula is known for having pulled off impossible magic feats such as his castle, and him drawing enough fuel from Chaos to do it does a good job at explaining the castle's nature and this feat in itself (Dracula is so goddamn frightening he can use YOUR FEELINGS to build his castle, think about it). Having Dracula not use chaos as power source to built a symbol of fear and try to destroy mankind with it completelly and utterly undermines the point of "Humans are their own demise" that the series has worked to establish.

From Dracula's ending on Judgment, right after speaking of his revival cycle:


There's nothing I can do, really. Skepticism is good, but the evidence is laid, and personally, I think Chaos being Dracula's power source actually does a superior job than "eeeh he studied a lot of magic you see". The potential to Demon King has nothing to do with how many magic tricks you know.

Hopefully you'll get your hands on the novel scans and clarify it for everyone.

I think you're interpreting this too literally. It seems to me "混沌の"  is supposed to be an adjective. So it's more like: "Dracula's  castle is a chaotic creation".   

I may not be fluent in Japanese, but I think you're nuancing it to fit your interpretation, with all due respect. Not a single translator (human or robot) gave me this interpretation, ever.

but I think there's enough reason for doubt.   

Do you think the description of Death lacking the part saying he was born from chaos is enough reason for doubt? Why do I have to provide one million sources to prove my point, but only one from you that doesn't even say the contrary is "enough reason for doubt"?

I hope you understand my annoyance. It's hard to have an official work say something literally, supported by multiple other sources, then someones comes and says "nah, your just dumb".

[DraculaCronqvist]

Continuation from this discussion.

Considering Dracula constantly rambles about doing what he does because humanity calls him to it, this point far from stands. Later games just expand upon the "mechanics" of how humanity forces him to do it, and it's far from consensual. Quote from IGA's interview about Dracula's resurrection:

(click to show/hide)

Developers disclose Dracula's secret #3
The reason for the transformation resulting in resurrection:

Interviewer: In SOTN, Dracula was defeated but why is he still being resurrected in the later eras?

IGA: When someone is sealed in the Demon Realm only the evil part of that person is amplified. Whenever cult members perform the resurrection ritual, if Dracula himself is not willing, it is supposed that only the evil intent is resurrected.
However, it is thought of that Dracula will be given eternal repose someday.

In simpler terms: Not only chaos holds sway over Dracula through the evil intent, but if he chooses not to heed the calling of chaos, it forces Dracula to resurrect and replaces his will with the evil intent. The above interview explains why Dracula kept returning as a psychopath after his apparent repenting on SotN -- it's chaos forcing him to through the evil intent because we know from Aria it's chaos powering this evil intent. You may try to argue that he's revived as an evil husk without a soul: doesn't work like that. IGA's "Dracula will have eternal repose someday" line is very clear that he's not getting any repose. Plus, the Dominance -- the power to rule -- is bound to Dracula's soul. So it's a very important soul having a very important part of the "Demon King" equation. It IS really Dracula in there, his willpower taking the backseat to chaos driving the car through his evil intent, using him to command the demons while he waits for his "eternal repose".

And if you think I'm asspulling, again I cite Julius: He feels Soma's intent/spirit fighting the evil intent/spirit trying to take hold of his body. If Soma loses, he too becomes a passenger on his own car, now hijacked by chaos, his spirit erased by the evil intent. It takes BOTH evil intent and Dracula's soul to make the Demon King manifest.

So, you either play your part as the Demon King, or chaos will mind-rape you into doing it.

In summary: Aria shows that Soma has to fight the evil intent taking hold of him (which is a separate entity from himself as noted by Julius Belmont and Arikado, mind you), that Arikado has to keep this evil intent in check long enough for Soma to succeed, and shows that if he fails he turns evil. Against his will. And you still think Chaos holds no sway over Dracula at all?

Well, if you're not convinced now, nothing can convince you anymore.

There is no source confirming the Crimson Stone grants any power beyond immortality and cursing the user with vampirism. It can't even steal a soul, as we see Death having to do it for the stone to be complete.

I don't quite get what you mean here, because one thing does not follow from the other. Becoming the Demon King is not a result of the amassing power.

Dracula amassed power before his pact with the Evil God, but he still needed the pact to enact his ultimate vengeance plan. CVIII explains that his pact was specifically because he wanted to go above and beyond and gain control over the legions of darkness. And again, to be the Demon King one doesn't need to "amass power" (more on that on the next point).

Sorry, but I don't think the multiple sources I posted require any interpretation. Chaos is stated time and again to be Dracula's power source.

Literally explained to not be the case starting at CVIII. Dracula gained command over the evil creatures overnight, through a pact, not through admitedly badass devil-slaying. And it was cemented as canon by the CoD manga. He made a pact, BOOM, master of evil able to summon demons to Earth at will with a sweet-ass connection to infinite MP.

Also, Dracula lived peacefully between LoI and CVIII. So no badass devil-slaying in here either. Furthermore, your reasoning of how chaos could be the source of Dracula's power (by killing a lot of monsters) does not explain how the castle is a product of chaos. The castle is not a monster, nor Dracula is ever said to "kill a castle". The castle is made of the stuff.
 
DoS also shows pretty much what you have to do to become the Demon King: Have the Dominance, not "amassing huge power". In fact, it makes a point of saying that "having great power" is nearly irrelevant to the equation when Dmitri learns from Dracula's memories that the Demon King is not someone who has inherited magical powers, but someone who has the same ability as Soma has. They inherited Dracula's magical powers and thought themselves to be Dark Lord Candidates, but Dmitri realizes they were mistaken.

Dmitri failed to understand that Dominance comes from a pact, though. He cheated (by copying Soma's Dominance), therefore he fucked himself over and couldn't control anything.

DoS ends on the note that, if a Demon King is needed, one will appear. The effort is a simple as "surrender your body to become a vessel to ultimate evil". Granted, having huge power may give you the lead on the race for becoming the Demon King, but without the pact you're nothing.

Why would it need Death (read the novel)? Why would it need to influence the evil intent? Why would it need monsters? Or a castle?

Well, it's quite simple: The Demon King is the representative of evil on Earth. Arikado explains Soma can find chaos on the castle because the castle is currently on a spiritual plane. CVIII explains that the demons Dracula commands need to be summoned to Earth. Connect the dots here: Chaos needs a harbinger on the physical plane because not even its monsters can manifest on Earth without external effort, as it seems they spawn on the Demon Realm by default.

Also, again shown by the novel, chaos has a "calling" -- implying it needs something from someone. A will. So it being completelly mindless is very debatable.

We're not writing something that has not been solidified, keep this in mind. There is a chaos and it produced a Death, and one of the games goes as far as saying Death is following a greater force than Dracula's, quite likely referring to Chaos. So, while I can't say why it needs Dracula without delving into conjecture-territory, it very clearly DOES need Dracula, and needs Death to find it a master in the likelihood there isn't one.

At least until SotN, Dracula's intention to kill off humanity is very much consensual. He does not need to be "mind-raped" as you put it to do anything. His hatred for humanity is laid bare and needs no amplifying, nor does he need further incentive. Now, that chaos, meaning the evil of humanity, overrides Dracula's will post-SotN, that is very much possible and outright stated by IGA, so no argument there. However, this only means that chaos, as humanities evil made manifest, controlls Dracula's actions by making it impossible for him to let go of his hatred. It's still very much Dracula that does everything, however. So to argue just how much he or Chaos are in control is now a matter of semantics, based on this. Without Dracula, Chaos would not be able to do anything at all, since it cannot take the position of Demon King for itself, obviously.

As for the Castle being a creature of Chaos... Well yes, but Dracula made it. It is made out of chaos, but made by Dracula and changing according to his will. Again, if Chaos had such an overwhelmingly powerful presence and influence, it would not need Dracula. If it could build a Demon Castle on its own and do things like this, the main enemy would be named Chaos, not Dracula.

The Power of Dominance is required for the Demon King to be, true, but you cannot have domain over all evil by being weak. While Dracula did not "need" to amass power to become the Demon King, it was very much needed in fulfillment of his goals. If you are at the top, but not the strongest, someone will eventually conspired to take that place from you, as Galamoth evidently tried (and failed miserably, too). I maintain that only having the Power of Dominance alone is not sufficient for the position. Furthermore, if the Power of Dominance *is* the only requirement, this means that only Dracula *can* be the Demon King, as nobody else is in posession of this power. This would render Arikado's words at the end of DoS moot, for if the Power of Dominance, which only Dracula has, is required, then nobody could ever become the Demon King - thus, the position would be eternally empty. So it can't be that the Power of Dominance is the only requirement because otherwise, Arikado would not be worried. Or are you saying that a pact with Chaos would automatically grant the Power of Dominance? That is pure speculation. If it was truly as easy as this, anybody could become the new Demon King.

Also, the Demon King is *not* the representation of evil on Earth, but of evil in general. Never is it mentioned that Dracula is just the big man on Earth, but generally. At no point is it ever said that his soul, when send back to the Abyss/Hell, he's suddenly subservient to Chaos or Satan or whatever have you, which he would be if he was only respresenting Earth's evil. As for Death, it would not need a master if Chaos was already a capable master, which is evident that it is not, for lack of a will.

I'd like to stress this point in particular. Even if it *did* have some sort of will, it absolutely *needs* Dracula to do anything at all, so while chaos might influence Dracula's thirst for vengeance, it's a symbiotic relationship at best and not, as you make it sound like, Chaos ordering Dracula around or being a higher power than him. It's the fuel, the evil made by humans, but never is it mentioned in having some sort of concious. A source does not decide if or when it is used. It just is.

I think the explanation is a far simpler one. Dracula's power is fueled by the evil of mankind, is influenced by it so he cannot let go of his hatred but is still acting on nobody's authority but his own. Souma's fight against Chaos is a battle of himself against Dracula, just in a more literal sense.

[theplottwist]

It's still very much Dracula that does everything, however.

Ahhh, but then he's not acting out of free will, is he? Surely not.

We can argue semantics all day: Fact is he is not acting by himself and chaos DOES hold sway over his mind as soon as Dracula defies it.

the main enemy would be named Chaos, not Dracula.

The main enemy of humanity IS Chaos, dude, through Dracula. The entire theme of the series is "humans will destroy themselves if they don't mend their ways". Dracula is the punishment sent by chaos to men. Hence why he's the incarnation of evil.

I'm not trying to downplay Dracula at all. He is and will always be the God of Evil, bowing to no other Satans or Pazuzus. His hand is what commands all demons to bow, and his cunning is what made him into what he is.

His history with chaos is something for him to figure out. But as far as everyone is concerned, Dracula is the actual harbinger of armaggedon, as chaos can't do it by itself.

"Dominance must be defended by the strong" point

But of course, I never said the contrary. In fact, making the pact alone is probably not as simple as screaming at the heavens for it to come down. Death, too, would never side with a weakling to carry out Chaos' will, I think.

BUUUUT you're forgetting this: Correlation doesn't imply causation. This is the point. Even a weakling can become the Demon King if he knows how. He may not be able to sustain it, but he did become the Demon King, didn't he? Strength is still pretty much irrelevant.

"Only Soma can be the Demon King because only he has the Dominance" point

That was not what I said, nor is this correct. If you understood this, know this was not my intention.

We don't know the specifics of Dracula's pact, but nowhere it is said someone else can't make it and ALSO be bestowed by the Dominance. We know Soma has it, ok, but what if someone else walks Dracula's path? Death says it himself: The one who answers the calling of chaos is fit to continue Dracula's name. The novel is about Death dealing with the fact Soma wants nothing to do with this, but also having to defend the throne so a proper Demon King will come.

So there you have it. I do believe it is entirely possibly for there to be two Dominance wielders at the same time (much like was briefly the case with Dmitri and Soma -- Dmitri only failed because he tried to cheat).

Also, the Demon King is *not* the representation of evil on Earth

You took this shit too literally. Dracula is the representation of evil on Earth because only he can walk the earthly plane and summon the chaotic legions to Earth, and not because "there's only evil literally on Earth". My hairs go GREY of knowing Dracula reigns atop the Demon Realm as the incarnation of evil (SotN manual) just as fine as he does on Earth or on Hell (OoE).

I'd like to stress this point in particular. Even if it *did* have some sort of will, it absolutely *needs* Dracula to do anything at all, so while chaos might influence Dracula's thirst for vengeance, it's a symbiotic relationship at best and not, as you make it sound like, Chaos ordering Dracula around or being a higher power than him. It's the fuel, the evil made by humans, but never is it mentioned in having some sort of concious. A source does not decide if or when it is used. It just is.

The relationship is far from symbiotic when chaos decides to screw Dracula's free will to make Dracula destroy everyone even after he repented.

"You agree with me? Ohhh I love you. Oh, you suddenly disagree with me? Guess what, you have no choice." <<< This shit is not symbiotic.

I think the explanation is a far simpler one. Dracula's power is fueled by the evil of mankind, is influenced by it so he cannot let go of his hatred but is still acting on nobody's authority but his own.

Sorry, I can't agree with this. Even when Dracula has decided by his own authority to NOT revive, he has no choice. He cannot escape, and cannot choose to ask for help. This, to me, sounds like he became a puppet at a certain point and only ever had an illusion of choice while he agreed to carry out chaos' destruction. Pacts have prices, y'know. And it's a common trope for the character making the pact to notice a bit too late they can't and could never escape it.

[DraculaCronqvist]

Ahhh, but then he's not acting out of free will, is he? Surely not.

We can argue semantics all day: Fact is he is not acting by himself and chaos DOES hold sway over his mind as soon as Dracula defies it.

The main enemy of humanity IS Chaos, dude, through Dracula. The entire theme of the series is "humans will destroy themselves if they don't mend their ways". Dracula is the punishment sent by chaos to men. Hence why he's the incarnation of evil.

I'm not trying to downplay Dracula at all. He is and will always be the God of Evil. His hand is what commands all demons to bow.

But of course, I never said the contrary. In fact, making the pact alone is probably not as simple as screaming at the heavens for it to come down. Death, too, would never side with a weakling to carry out Chaos' will, I think.

BUUUUT you're forgetting this: Correlation doesn't imply causation. This is the point. Even a weakling can become the Demon King if he knows how. He may not be able to sustain it, but he did become the Demon King, didn't he? Strength is still pretty much irrelevant.

That was not what I said, nor is this correct. If you understood this, know this was not my intention.

We don't know the specifics of Dracula's pact, but nowhere it is said someone else can't make it and ALSO be bestowed by the Dominance. We know Soma has it, ok, but what if someone else walks Dracula's path? Death says it himself: The one who answers the calling of chaos is fit to continue Dracula's name. The novel is about Death dealing with the fact Soma wants nothing to do with this, but also having to defend the throne so a proper Demon King will come.

So there you have it. I do believe it is entirely possibly for there to be two Dominance wielders at the same time (much like was briefly the case with Dmitri and Soma -- Dmitri only failed because he tried to cheat).

You took this shit too literally. Dracula is the representation of evil on Earth because only he can walk the earthly plane and summon the chaotic legions to Earth, and not because "there's only evil literally on Earth". My hairs go GREY of knowing Dracula reigns atop the Demon Realm as the incarnation of evil (SotN manual) just as fine as he does on Earth or on Hell (OoE).

The relationship is far from symbiotic when chaos decides to screw Dracula's free will to make Dracula destroy everyone even after he repented.

"You agree with me? Ohhh I love you. Oh, you suddenly disagree with me? Guess what, you have no choice." <<< This shit is not symbiotic.

Sorry, I can't agree with this. Even when Dracula has decided by his own authority to NOT revive, he has no choice. He cannot escape, and cannot choose to ask for help. This, to me, sounds like he became a puppet at a certain point and only ever had an illusion of choice while he agreed to carry out chaos' destruction.

Dracula is very much acting on his own will. Only post-SotN he is not. Granted, how much that really leaves him in control is debatable.

However, what you are doing is arguing against Dracula as a whole. By arguing for Chaos to be in control, Dracula becomes no more than a puppet, a victim, rather than the All-powerful Demon King that he's consistently portrayed as. He cannot be the God of Evil and be a puppet at the same time. So either he's the God of Evil or he's a victim of Chaos' scheming and Chaos is the true God of Evil. It can't both be true.

Lastly, Dmitrii did not fail because he tried to cheat, but because his soul was not strong enough to contain the Power of Dominance. It was not the act of cheating in itself that made him fail. As for there being more people to have the Power of Dominance... Highly unlikely. If this could be, why would it be? Why, if Chaos really is in control like you claim, would Chaos grant this power to two beings only for them to end up fighting for the mantle of the Demon King? Also, it is never mentioned anywhere that the Power of Dominance comes from Chaos. It could simply be Dracula's inherent trait.

[Dracula9]

Chaos is not "in control" insofar as it's sentient and malevolent and actively trying to wreck shit.

It's the personification/representation/manifestation of all of humankind's various evils. It only acts true to its nature. According to whatever thing we could call Chaos' mind, it was made from all these countless desires for evil and violence and bloodshed, so these things must be what humankind wants to happen, so it (Chaos) "acts" accordingly.

Dracula says time and again that it was the will of humans that brought him back yet again. And this is exactly the role Chaos plays. It's not some evil overseer acting behind the scenes with its foul agenda pulling Dracula's strings. It doesn't force him to return because of its own will (which I don't necessarily think it has), it forces him to return because of its nature as the sum of humanity's evils.

Dracula is the big dog on doing all the evil shit Chaos is made of, therefore for Chaos to do as its nature commands, it's simply easiest to bring back Dracula.

Dracula is inexorably bound to Chaos because of the pact(s) he made. Therefore whatever the "will" of Chaos is, he must follow whether he wants to or not. Humans act like turds and try and revive Dracula? Chaos is being called upon again by the very things that formed it, so out of consequence and proxy the uber-powerful demon master it's bound to is called upon in tandem. It's simple cause-and-effect because Dracula and Chaos are symbiotically bound.

Chaos is not like an angry parent yanking their kid out of bed and forcing them to get up and go to school, or whatever. That's not how it works. Rather, Chaos is more akin to an obsessive-compulsive mannerism that can't really be controlled fully--much like a person with OCD feeling compelled to incessantly, say, scratch their neck (regardless of whether or not they WANT to scratch their neck), Dracula is compelled to wake up when the Chaos Alarm Clock goes off whether he's down to clown or not.

Pre-SotN, Drac was totally down with embracing his role alongside Chaos (whether he was even AWARE of this relationship is unknown AFAIK). SotN happens, he realizes and repents his sins, and no longer wants to come back. But because of his relationship with Chaos, he's coming back whether he wants to or not. But since Dracula's soul is comprised of two very specific aspects (the "Mathias" aspect and the "Dracula" aspect, the latter of which is more his "Chaos-oriented" persona), the unwilling aspect ("Mathias") becomes overshadows by the willing aspect ("Dracula"), because for Chaos it's simply the path of least resistance to put Dr. Jekyll to sleep and wake Mr. Hyde up, because Mr. Hyde is agreeable to mayhem and havoc.

So in sum, Chaos isn't actively twisting Dracula's arm to wake his ass up post-SotN. It's simply more akin to an OCD quirk that Dracula has no real control over that happens regardless of his intent.

[DraculaCronqvist]

Chaos is not "in control" insofar as it's sentient and malevolent and actively trying to wreck shit.

It's the personification/representation/manifestation of all of humankind's various evils. It only acts true to its nature. According to whatever thing we could call Chaos' mind, it was made from all these countless desires for evil and violence and bloodshed, so these things must be what humankind wants to happen, so it (Chaos) "acts" accordingly.

Dracula says time and again that it was the will of humans that brought him back yet again. And this is exactly the role Chaos plays. It's not some evil overseer acting behind the scenes with its foul agenda pulling Dracula's strings. It doesn't force him to return because of its own will (which I don't necessarily think it has), it forces him to return because of its nature as the sum of humanity's evils.

Dracula is the big dog on doing all the evil shit Chaos is made of, therefore for Chaos to do as its nature commands, it's simply easiest to bring back Dracula.

Dracula is inexorably bound to Chaos because of the pact(s) he made. Therefore whatever the "will" of Chaos is, he must follow whether he wants to or not. Humans act like turds and try and revive Dracula? Chaos is being called upon again by the very things that formed it, so out of consequence and proxy the uber-powerful demon master it's bound to is called upon in tandem. It's simple cause-and-effect because Dracula and Chaos are symbiotically bound.

Chaos is not like an angry parent yanking their kid out of bed and forcing them to get up and go to school, or whatever. That's not how it works. Rather, Chaos is more akin to an obsessive-compulsive mannerism that can't really be controlled fully--much like a person with OCD feeling compelled to incessantly, say, scratch their neck (regardless of whether or not they WANT to scratch their neck), Dracula is compelled to wake up when the Chaos Alarm Clock goes off whether he's down to clown or not.

Pre-SotN, Drac was totally down with embracing his role alongside Chaos (whether he was even AWARE of this relationship is unknown AFAIK). SotN happens, he realizes and repents his sins, and no longer wants to come back. But because of his relationship with Chaos, he's coming back whether he wants to or not. But since Dracula's soul is comprised of two very specific aspects (the "Mathias" aspect and the "Dracula" aspect, the latter of which is more his "Chaos-oriented" persona), the unwilling aspect ("Mathias") becomes overshadows by the willing aspect ("Dracula"), because for Chaos it's simply the path of least resistance to put Dr. Jekyll to sleep and wake Mr. Hyde up, because Mr. Hyde is agreeable to mayhem and havoc.

So in sum, Chaos isn't actively twisting Dracula's arm to wake his ass up post-SotN. It's simply more akin to an OCD quirk that Dracula has no real control over that happens regardless of his intent.

And this, I agree with. Perhaps it was just the wording of plottwist, but as you stated so fittingly, Chaos is not in control as an intelligent being with its own agenda. I mean, if we go down that route, the one who ultimately is in control is humanity itself. If humans would wish no more for evil things to happen, chaos would cease to exist and thus, no more problems.

[theplottwist]

Dracula is very much acting on his own will. Only post-SotN he is not. Granted, how much that really leaves him in control is debatable.

80% agreed. This last "how much that really leaves him in control" isn't debatable. IGA said if Dracula is not willing, evil intent takes over, period. We never ever see Dracula ever react against it from OoE until Portrait.

However, what you are doing is arguing against Dracula as a whole. By arguing for Chaos to be in control, Dracula becomes no more than a puppet, a victim, rather than the All-powerful Demon King that he's consistently portrayed as. He cannot be the God of Evil and be a puppet at the same time.

Why not? If the evil intent is taking over and forcing Dracula's revival, this does make Dracula a victim. He can still be the evil god while still being a victim of his own deeds, who said being an evil god is all flowers? Because, let's face it: This ENTIRE ordeal is fault of his weak moral fiber -- something contrasted with the Belmonts. When Leon choose humanity, Mathias choose vengeance. When Alucard and Lisa choose humanity, out goes Dracula making evil pacts with evil gods. His morals are questionable ever since the now-retconned selling of Alucard's soul in CVIII, dude. Dracula has an ENORMOUS ego, and this is his punishment for it.

Let us not forget that Dracula is quite the tragic, victimized character too. All woes of the world fall on him as he perceives himself being wronged at every turn. This is just one more instance of that -- the greatest instance of that. His reincarnating as Soma is the chance to stop his ego bullshit and try to find his redemption at last.

Lastly, Dmitrii did not fail because he tried to cheat, but because his soul was not strong enough to contain the Power of Dominance.

What does Soma soul have that Dmitri's does not?

Hint 1: One of then made a proper pact.
Hint 2: It's not enormous magical powers, because Soma is quite far from being as powerful as Dracula was when HE obtained Dominance centuries back.

Why, if Chaos really is in control like you claim, would Chaos grant this power to two beings only for them to end up fighting for the mantle of the Demon King?

Why would Soma fight for the mantle of Demon King, again? I thought he wanted nothing to do with it, no?

Also, it is never mentioned anywhere that the Power of Dominance comes from Chaos. It could simply be Dracula's inherent trait.

Cite me where I said the Power of Dominance is bestowed by Chaos. Have you noticed everytime I mention the pact, I don't say "Chaos" but instead "Evil God"?

I'll let you in on a tiny secret: There is a reason for that. I'm pretty sure the Evil/False God of this pact is not Chaos. And this is no sarcasm -- I have a really, really strong reason to think it's not Chaos.

D9 explain Chaos

Fucking this.

I diverge a bit from D9 on the "conscious" aspect of Chaos, but I don't think Chaos is an ACTUAL scheming being. It's the collective unconscious of mankind, noise screaming "destruction!" over and over again.

[Dracula9]

Plot and I are of the same general opinion on this, so it would seem ultimately simply a disagreement on the semantics used.

Chaos is just that, a force without a truly unique will of its own.

Its iteration in Aria as a foe is not a case where it suddenly gained its own will and acted independently; rather, it's following the same thing it's always followed--Dracula is the best thing for me to do what I do, so wake Dracula up. And Dracula is now Soma, and Soma needs to be "killed" so that his original Soma personality gets overwritten by the Dracula persona, and then everything's hunky-dory for Chaos.

Imagine being in Chaos' shoes. You're, in a sense, married to this dude for the better part of a thousand years, all of a sudden boom, he's gone and you two get divorced via a severance package. Then you sit alone under house arrest for ~40 years, unable to do much of anything, and suddenly he's back...but not how he used to be. You gotta talk some sense into him, get him to come back to you, he's all you've ever known. But he isn't responding to entreaties, so you're left with no options but to try and use force to strongarm him into coming back.

This extended metaphor is more or less Aria's Chaos. It's still nonsentient and lacking a unique will of its own, and its former master has returned to its dwelling-place but isn't willing to accept it again. Much like a wild animal being teased with its favorite food, it reacts increasingly violently to get what it wants. And so we have our final boss.

What does Soma soul have that Dmitri's does not?

Hint 1: One of then made a proper pact.
Hint 2: It's not enormous magical powers, because Soma is quite far from being as powerful as Dracula was when HE obtained Dominance centuries back.

There's no need for hints.

Soma has humanity, Dmitrii does not. Dmitrii only cares about power--more specifically, his power. Sure, as he explains to Soma, there's nothing inherently wrong with him simply wanting to better understand himself and his abilities. But his lack of humanity and willingness to sacrifice anyone and everyone to that end is what makes him come up short.

Chaos, as we know, is the product and manifestation of human desire. It's not inherently evil, and it's not inherently good either. Chaos is chaos, and chaos is neutral. It can be used for either side. In CV, it's used for the side of evil pretty much universally.

So when you have two dudes that could "take" it, and one is just another power-hungry asshat like all the rest, his fate comes as no surprise. Dmitrii has nothing going for him that the thousand years of dark priests and evil humans and even Dracula himself had going for them long before Dmitrii even existed.

But that's precisely the catch. Chaos has all those centuries of those evils. Dmitrii has 36 years. Should come as no surprise he can't control it, because it's an amplification of his own sins on a scale fathoms beyond his frail human shell.

Soma, on the other hand, has two distinct advantages.

The first is his humanity. Chaos might have a thousand years of sin and evil powering it, but it doesn't have much experience with goodness and humanity. And as we've seen time and again, all the forces of Chaos aren't enough to beat just one person with a strong enough moral fiber.

The second is that he has Dracula's soul. Where Dmitrii lacks those centuries of amassed power, Soma has them. He doesn't have active control, of course, but he has them nonetheless, and they likely act as a sort of buffer between his true soul and the power of Chaos. Dmitrii had no such buffer, and as a result Chaos' power tore him asunder and utterly destroyed him. His soul simply wasn't powerful enough to balance out.

Soma has a good heart, Dominance, and the Chaos buffer that Dracula's soul provides him. It's absolutely no surprise why he comes out on top.

Also, let's remember that Chaos itself has no active part in the Candidates' power struggle. That's all the acts of humans. Chaos doesn't give a shit who comes out on top, only that the person who ultimately "takes" it is strong enough to handle it.

[theplottwist]

And this, I agree with. Perhaps it was just the wording of plottwist, but as you stated so fittingly, Chaos is not in control as an intelligent being with its own agenda. I mean, if we go down that route, the one who ultimately is in control is humanity itself. If humans would wish no more for evil things to happen, chaos would cease to exist and thus, no more problems.

You do realize this is the plan of Olrox, right?

I'm not even kidding.