Topic: Chaos and Dracula

[DraculaCronqvist]

Oh yes, I know. It would have been interesting to see if Orloks theory would have proved to be true or not. Perhaps, with humanity being all peaceful, Chaos would have stopped existing... or maybe what has once existed cannot ever be undone? We'll likely never know. (Again, thanks Konami)

That is sadly one of the weaknesses of the franchise, that the characters don't get much development. Of course, the games are great because of their gameplay, but some more explanations would have been nice.

And yes, it would be the logical extreme to his story, the ultimate hammering in of the fact that Dracula is ultimately a victim - however, if that is actually adding anything to Dracula or taking away from him is, again, debatable.

As for the semantics, yes. Because Chaos is most certainly not Dracula's master, like some guy acting from behind the scenes like a Chessmaster.

Lastly... @plottwist, please tell me you don't think that the Evil God, if that is not supposed to be Chaos, is Satan or something like that.

[Dracula9]

He doesn't think it's Satan. I'll clarify that right the hell now.

[DraculaCronqvist]

He doesn't think it's Satan. I'll clarify that right the hell now.

Good, because that would go against the lore, hard.

Alas, much of what was written here is only speculation or connecting the dots. We've been given a lot of hints and plot points, but rarely anything solid as to have definitive answers for a lot of the questions asked. Now with Konami killing Castlevania off, we will probably never have anything more than that, unless someone were to ask IGA specific questions regarding the lore.

[theplottwist]

Lastly... @plottwist, please tell me you don't think that the Evil God, if that is not supposed to be Chaos, is Satan or something like that.

100% sure it is not Satan (more or less, it's a complicated situation and this is kind of a "Schrodinger's proof"). I will... speak a bit more than I should here since I already let the cat out of the bag. For now, you're gonna have to take my word for it with no dead-on source, so feel free to discard it as bullshit for the time being. And, I cannot give too many specifics about why I shouldn't be speaking of this here. Still:

I have asked IGA about this, amongst other questions. And he answered. But the answer was really vague.

(click to show/hide)

The Evil God comes from a polytheistic religion that is not Shinto. If it's a polytheistic religion, then it's not Satan either (by most interpretations of Abrahamic religions, at least).

MY guess is Mara, original "Demon King" concept from Buddhism.

[DraculaCronqvist]

100% sure it is not Satan (more or less, it's a complicated situation and this is kind of a "Schrodinger's proof"). I will... speak a bit more than I should here since I already let the cat out of the bag. For now, you're gonna have to take my word for it with no dead-on source, so feel free to discard it as bullshit for the time being. And, I cannot give too many specifics about why I shouldn't be speaking of this here. Still:

I have asked IGA about this, amongst other questions. And he answered. But the answer was really vague.

(click to show/hide)

The Evil God comes from a polytheistic religion that is not Shinto. If it's a polytheistic religion, then it's not Satan either.

MY guess is Mara, original "Demon King" concept from Buddhism.

IF this is true, then that would fuck up the lore even more, outright bitchslap it into oblivion, in my opinion. If Chaos was not the Evil God but yet another entity behind everything, at what point would the name "Akumajou Dracula" become a complete misnomer and turn to salt in the wound of all Dracula fans?

[Dracula9]

...except Chaos' boss form has some pretty heavy, seriously plausible references to Buddhism. We have a whole thread about it, even.

Remember, nobody said the inclusion of a legitimate evil deity outright meant that deity was controlling everything behind the scenes. If we assume this theory to be true, then we have the original "Demon King."

But that guy isn't "Demon King" anymore. Dracula is.

What might one have to do to usurp that title from someone else, hm? And it's not like we see the OG Demon King retaking his throne whenever Dracula's out of commission on holiday in the Bahamas, either. That only really leaves one outcome of any plausibility. And we all know full-strength Dracula is more than capable of doing exactly what that outcome suggests.

I diverge a bit from D9 on the "conscious" aspect of Chaos, but I don't think Chaos is an ACTUAL scheming being. It's the collective unconscious of mankind, noise screaming "destruction!" over and over again.

I said Chaos wasn't sentient and lacked a true will of its own. I never said it wasn't conscious.

[theplottwist]

IF this is true, then that would fuck up the lore even more, outright bitchslap it into oblivion, in my opinion. If Chaos was not the Evil God but yet another entity behind everything, at what point would the name "Akumajou Dracula" become a complete misnomer and turn to salt in the wound of all Dracula fans?

OK here's is a (very) important deal: While Dracula was not the Demon King, someone else had to be because the laws of nature on the CV universe require it. I know this for a fact, because Celia, on DoS, explains the Demon Realm needs a Demon King lest it vanishes. It grows "rapidly weak", according to her, which is why she is so desperate to crown a Demon King. And that's only 36 years after Dracula stepped down.

By CVIII's time, there was ALREADY a Demon Realm for Dracula to summon demon dudes from just fine. If it needs a Demon King to exist, then one must have existed by this time. Dracula, also, becomes the Evil God himself after CVIII. What gives?

Do you get what I'm trying to say?

But that guy isn't "Demon King" anymore. Dracula is.

Exactly.

[DraculaCronqvist]

...except Chaos' boss form has some pretty heavy, seriously plausible references to Buddhism. We have a whole thread about it, even.

Remember, nobody said the inclusion of a legitimate evil deity outright meant that deity was controlling everything behind the scenes. If we assume this theory to be true, then we have the original "Demon King."

But that guy isn't "Demon King" anymore. Dracula is.

What one might have to do to usurp that title from someone else, hm?

I said Chaos wasn't sentient and lacked a true will of its own. I never said it wasn't conscious.

Well, given that the series is Japanese (unashamedly so, which is good), it is not strange that references to buddhism, shintoism and Japanese culture in general are included. Hell, even the whole "Demon King/Satan/Dark Lord" thing arose out of a mistranslation, later leading to the whole "Dracula vs Satan" thing in Lords of Shadows.

If this Evil God really is not Chaos but got his title as Demon King stripped from him... Well, that would fit *very* much into a story I've written years ago. Almost scarily so, in fact. To summarize it, Dracula, in order to become the Demon King, kills the former Demon King (since, as plottwist correctly mentioned already) there canonically had to be one pre-Dracula. In my story, it was Satan from the bible. Seems like that fanfiction was not too far off from the mark.

[Dracula9]

Remember, Dracula (originally) sought to deny God.

What better way to deny God (or at least your God) than to not only kill another god (which your God would consider false or sacrilegious), but then take his place?

[DraculaCronqvist]

Remember, Dracula (originally) sought to deny God.

What better way to deny God (or at least your God) than to not only kill another god (which your God would consider false or sacrilegious), but then take his place?

... Which would fit right into the German translation of DoS in which Dracula is once outright called the God of Evil (don't know about other translations).

I still maintain a healthy amount of skepticism towards this claim of IGA, since no source is given as to its authenticity, but it *would* fit nicely into it all.

[theplottwist]

IF this is true, then that would fuck up the lore even more, outright bitchslap it into oblivion, in my opinion. If Chaos was not the Evil God but yet another entity behind everything, at what point would the name "Akumajou Dracula" become a complete misnomer and turn to salt in the wound of all Dracula fans?

Also, I'll have you know there IS one more character with the "Demon King" title on this series. And he existed at the same time as Dracula, too.

Though lesser than Dracula (in stats and overall depiction both visually and lore-wise), Abaddon is called "Demon King of the Abyss". Meaning that yeah, there are more "Demon Kings" out there, though none probably being "ruler of all demons" as Dracula is described to be:

Description straight from Portrait.

アバドン:
疫病をもたらすイナゴ達の王。深淵の魔王

[DraculaCronqvist]

Also, I'll have you know there IS one more character with the "Demon King" title on this series. And he existed at the same time as Dracula, too.

Though lesser than Dracula (in stats and overall depiction both visually and lore-wise), Abaddon is called "Demon King of the Abyss". Meaning that yeah, there are more "Demon Kings" out there, though none probably being "ruler of all demons" as Dracula is described to be:

Description straight from Portrait.

アバドン:
疫病をもたらすイナゴ達の王。深淵の魔王

Though that could just be a typical case of "gameplay and story segregation". They needed a cool description for Abaddon and so they did this - now, it could have been also intentional, but I doubt that, since it would undermine the whole "Demong King" deal of the Sorrow duology.

I mean, according to lore, Dracula can also only be harmed by the Vampire Killer whip and his own power (which is also why Alucard can harm him, as heir to a part of his power), yet in the games, you can kill with any weapon available.

[Dracula9]

Also, I'll have you know there IS one more character with the "Demon King" title on this series. And he existed at the same time as Dracula, too.

Though lesser than Dracula (in stats and overall depiction both visually and lore-wise), Abaddon is called "Demon King of the Abyss". Meaning that yeah, there are more "Demon Kings" out there, though none probably being "ruler of all demons" as Dracula is described to be:

Just as how we asserted that Final Boss Chaos is merely one aspect of the full thing, I think "Demon King of the Abyss" is just one aspect of the full Demon Realm.

Abbadon is Demon King of his own territory, which in this case is The Abyss. He may be Demon King, but he's not the Demon King.

[DraculaCronqvist]

Just as how we asserted that Final Boss Chaos is merely one aspect of the full thing, I think "Demon King of the Abyss" is just one aspect of the full Demon Realm.

Abbadon is Demon King of his own territory, which in this case is The Abyss. He may be Demon King, but he's not the Demon King.

The point I was trying to make with my post above, thank you.

EDIT: Another thing comes to mind. Souma beat Chaos, but as he is evidently not as powerful as Dracula was, this again raises the question on how an entity like Chaos could control and override Dracula's own will, if he was truly unwilling. With his massive power, he could beat Chaos, even if bereft of his absorbed souls. It is evident that Chaos cannot assume control of another without a fight, as it did need to fight and defeat Souma for him to become the Demon King.

I think, in the end, this is all read way too much into it. While IGA states that only Dracula's evil intent is amplified and brought back from the Abyss, I think he didn't mean it in such a literal way as the boss, Chaos, assuming control of Dracula and overriding his will. I believe IGA meant that the evils of humanity bring Dracula back and make him evil again. They create their own doom by having evil desires, which empower Dracula and make him reborn every 100 years or so. The Chaos in-game is not an all-powerful demon, but simply a "battle in the center of the mind" taken literally for the players to enjoy a final boss, I believe.

[Dracula9]

While IGA states that only Dracula's evil intent is amplified and brought back from the Abyss, I think he didn't mean it in such a literal way as the boss, Chaos, assuming control of Dracula and overriding his will. I believe IGA meant that the evils of humanity bring Dracula back and make him evil again.

Those two things are literally one and the same. Boss Chaos is only an extension of Full Chaos which applies most immediately to Dracula/Soma. It's tied to him like Edward Elric's Gate is tied to his alchemy and his alone. If Ed can destroy his own personal Gate, why can't Soma destroy his own personal Chaos?

Another thing comes to mind. Souma beat Chaos, but as he is evidently not as powerful as Dracula was, this again raises the question on how an entity like Chaos could control and override Dracula's own will, if he was truly unwilling.

Soma had the humanity that Dracula lacked. Humanity and goodness is what has kicked Chaos' ass through Dracula all these centuries--why is Soma the exception?

With his massive power, he could beat Chaos, even if bereft of his absorbed souls. It is evident that Chaos cannot assume control of another without a fight, as it did need to fight and defeat Souma for him to become the Demon King.

Where is it listed Dracula could actually beat Chaos? He can beat the evil god that held reign before him, but a singular all-powerful entity and an amalgamated pseudo-all-powerful entity that will continue to exist and grow as long as humans have the ability to be assholes are not even close to being the same thing.

Imagine Menace, which was an amalgamation of all the evil souls and shit in Dmitrii, right? But this time it grows perpetually because it's fed by humans, and can more or less recover itself from injury as quickly as it's injured because its power is fed by humans perpetually. Soma already expresses that regular Menace is too dangerous and powerful to get out of the Abyss--imagine a Menace playing on God Mode with all the cheats turned on. That's more or less Chaos. You can't kill what exists in a perpetual state, you can only kill parts of it, which will eventually come back if the proper fuel source continues to burn.

Boss Chaos is Dracula's "part," and it continued to come back because Dracula kept coming back. But if Dracula can't come back anymore (in the form of Soma refusing the resurrection cycle), then killing that part of Chaos will kill that part for good, because its fuel source has run dry.

And Chaos assumed D I R E C T C O N T R O L all the time without a "fight." Not-evil Dracula might not have wanted to wake up this or that particular time, but that's hardly a "fight." You never saw a resurrected Dracula struggling with an internal battle of the mind and will, did you?

Dracula gets "overtaken" by Chaos because that's the deal he unwittingly signed himself on to. Whether or not he's actually "strong enough" to best it in combat isn't even a factor. You can't punch a malignant tumor out of your body no matter how physically adept you are, and that's exactly what Chaos is to his soul.

You wanna live forever and have all this dark power? Great, here's a really fucking big monkey for your back. No, you can't pull it off by yourself. Don't even bother trying. Not even that Sinbad trick with the wine will help you here. Hey, no complaints. This is what you signed up for. It's your own fault for not reading the terms and conditions closely enough. Deal with it.

They create their own doom by having evil desires, which empower Dracula and make him reborn every 100 years or so.

Hundred years thing is absolutely 100% false. It's mere happenstance that people rez him in roughly that timeframe. He's not bound to any resurrection schedule beyond how quickly the dark priests and cultists can bring his ass back.

The Chaos in-game is not an all-powerful demon, but simply a "battle in the center of the mind" taken literally for the players to enjoy a final boss, I believe.

Nobody ever said Boss Chaos or even Full Chaos was all-powerful. Boss Chaos is a physical manifestation of a singular facet of the whole thing, and thus can be slain accordingly under the right conditions (which Soma meets). It's not a mind-battle by any stretch of the imagination. If it were a mind-fight, there would be absolutely no need for a Chaos Realm, a portal to the Chaos Realm, an uber-powerful Chaos Realm Portal seal that only Dracula (and apparently Julius but it's Julius and fuck you he does what he wants) can pass through, and a magical conduit to Chaos sealed again in an empty solitary chamber behind a special boss door addled with presumably stupid powerful magic (what else was all that lightning on it?).

By all means believe this, it certainly makes for a cool perspective on the final boss, just know that there's nothing even remotely supporting it as plausible.