Topic: Lament of Innocence isn't actually that essential to the story

[theplottwist]

Castlevania 3 doesn't ever state Trevor was or wasn't the first Belmont to fight Dracula, and no game to my knowledge ever directly addressed the matter either (i.e; there's no in game dialogue or text that outright says "Trevor Belmont was the first Belmont to face Dracula and win" until Lament's epilogue came along and... strongly implied it without actually fully committing to it with actual names, which still could leave some room for reasonable doubt and speculation.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Please respond with evidence that is from a game that is not Judgment and actually indisputably canon because it's not fucking with every single timeline by merging them together and splitting them haphazardly.

The sheer level of timeline-based whatthefuckery in that game has led me long ago to strike out anything from it as valid evidence that I will not accept in structured debate.
But if you can dig up that same point from another game, I will definitely not contest it.

[DarkPrinceAlucard]

"

 (i.e; there's no in game dialogue or text that outright says "Trevor Belmont was the first Belmont to face Dracula and win"

There doesn't need to be really since games like SOTN make it clear from recollection towards past events that clearly paint Trevor as the first to defeat Dracula otherwise there would have been mention of Sonia's battle since obviously in Legends Alucard had a big role and was there during those events, and yet ingame the only Belmont that is pointed out as being past acquainted with Alucard is Trevor. As plottwist said you would have to retcon the narrative of SOTN to even hope to possibly fit Legends into the series and I highly doubt retconning a game like Symphony would be ideal or wise. So like I said the notion of just messing with the years does not solve the issue at hand.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

otherwise there would have been mention of Sonia's battle since obviously in Legends Alucard had a big role and was there during those events, and yet ingame the only Belmont that is pointed out as being past acquainted with Alucard is Trevor.

This point is solid. I definitely buy that with no counterargument.

I'm just making the side point that the games are pretty terrible at enforcing their own continuity -- the Castlevania canon is the only one I can think of where the vast majority of continuity is upheld from the outside by production staff rather than internal continuity. Think of all the times we were unclear on a subject even after playing all the games and had to get Iga's clarification on something.

So, by the game's scripts, as written, there's very little enforcement -- just a lot of implications that people generally agreed there was a certain logical flow to. And it works because we all agree on what that flow is, but someone with a dissenting opinion could come in with their own data, run that same intellectual gauntlet, and end up in a different place from us, doubly so if they aren't familiar with any of the non-video game material.

My major point here is not to convince you away from anything, but to establish the proposition that if you're just going by what each game actually directly says verbatim, 90% of what we say on this forum would seem out and out foreign and you'd be wondering where we stumbled onto such notions because the games do such a poor job of communicating their own legend.

[theplottwist]

Please respond with evidence that is from a game that is not Judgment and actually indisputably canon because it's not fucking with every single timeline by merging them together and splitting them haphazardly.

The sheer level of timeline-based whatthefuckery in that game has led me long ago to strike out anything from it as valid evidence that I will not accept in structured debate.
But if you can dig up that same point from another game, I will definitely not contest it.

On the spirit of the good debate, I have one more. Dracula's Curse actually does tell you indirectly that Trevor was the first to destroy Dracula. I just picked an evidence that had the exact wording you needed and is far more accessible to everyone.

From CVIII's manual:

シモン・ベルモンドの時代を遡ること百余年、ドラキュラと人間との戦いは、ここから始まったのであった……。

Going back over a hundred years before Simon Belmont time, the fight between Dracula and humans starts here.

If the battle between Dracula and humans started here, then Trevor is the first person to kill Dracula by default.

This is one more against Legends, btw.

I'm just making the side point that the games are pretty terrible at enforcing their own continuity

Imagine if every single game had to keep reinforcing the history so far. Imagine the sheer size of the intros and dialogues lol

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Imagine if every single game had to keep reinforcing the history so far. Imagine the sheer size of the intros and dialogues lol

Honestly, they could easily look to comic books for inspiration as to how it's done. Stories across a given writing era are remarkably consistent with each other, and can reference each other with casual aplomb, not in a "hey look how conscious of the universe we are" way, but you can reliably expect Spider-Man to comment on something Captain America is doing much like we comment on local politics -- it's just a facet of our interconnected world.

Castlevania seldom feels that alive, if in fact it ever did to begin with. By comparison, it's more like... a series of plays all with the same framing narrative (but otherwise having little to do with each other) by a sequence of varied authors. Each is aware of and recognizes the prior author's works but the connection isn't fluid; it's wooden and stilted at best. References are made, not because they are a natural organic part of the world the story takes place in, but because it feels like some outside force deigned that the storyteller absolutely must make a reference or a connection.

The single greatest moment de vie in Castlevania was the bit where Maria is asking Alucard if he's seen Richter Belmont anywhere and, having not met Richter, he immediately recalls Trevor instead. It didn't feel forced. It was entirely natural and possibly the strongest enforcement of internal continuity by the games themselves in the series. Credit where it's due, Dawn of Sorrow and Portrait of Ruin were also chock full of it (though less well executed), but this was more due to their status as direct sequels. Still, their internal continuity was impressive for a series more typically known for its external continuity.

As an example, consider the difference between hearing a story told by a Korean War vet and the hearing that same story told to you on the Military History channel. The Vet is going to mention Reggie from the 103rd, and how Reggie wrote to his girlfriend every day and how he hated the jello they served at the mess "hall". He'll talk about the fighting and the strategies of course, but in their due time as it's less important to his story. The Military History documentary flips the equation. It's not gonna consider Reggie from the 103rd. It's going to focus on Brigadier Whatshisname and his brilliant use of decoy operations and clever troop movements to outfox the enemy. The priorities are different.

As Castlevania has a very strong external continuity, it comes across more like that Military History documentary. But then you have those moments, with Alucard, Soma, Jonathan, etc., and you get stuff from the guys who were actually there, talking about past events organically like they're actually part of a living breathing world with its own history, like a really well developed comic book does. And then things shift, jarringly, back to the History Channel version of continuity.

And I find myself wishing that we had the more personal and interconnected living history side of Castlevania all the time.

That's why I hope the Netflix series continues past Trevor and covers AT LEAST Simon, Leon, and Richter as well. In most fandom circles, they are often considered "the most important" Belmonts, and the Netflix show has the potential to nail the living history angle that the games have usually flubbed on.

[Shinobi]

There doesn't need to be really since games like SOTN make it clear from recollection towards past events that clearly paint Trevor as the first to defeat Dracula otherwise there would have been mention of Sonia's battle since obviously in Legends Alucard had a big role and was there during those events, and yet ingame the only Belmont that is pointed out as being past acquainted with Alucard is Trevor. As plottwist said you would have to retcon the narrative of SOTN to even hope to possibly fit Legends into the series and I highly doubt retconning a game like Symphony would be ideal or wise. So like I said the notion of just messing with the years does not solve the issue at hand.

Can't say how is it less different from Metal Gear series. MGS4 doesn't have any reference from MGS: Peace Walker or MGSV ground Zeroes/Phantom Pain which while the latter two came out after MGS4 they were set in the events before MGS4(nothing mentioned there about Militaires Sans Frontieres, Diamond Dogs, Skullface, etc. plus the Metal Gears before Metal Gear 1 & 2 looks way more advance)  and yet they are still part of Metal Gear canon.

[DarkPrinceAlucard]

Can't say how is it less different from Metal Gear series. MGS4 doesn't have any reference from MGS: Peace Walker or MGSV ground Zeroes/Phantom Pain which while the latter two came out after MGS4 they were set in the events before MGS4(nothing mentioned there about Militaires Sans Frontieres, Diamond Dogs, Skullface, etc. plus the Metal Gears before Metal Gear 1 & 2 looks way more advance)  and yet they are still part of Metal Gear canon.

Well the difference there is while those games where made later after MGS4 there is the fact that those where made with the INTENTION of being part of the established MGS canon so that it why it would be more excusable there.

But with the CV series Legends was meant to be part of its own separate canon that would have continued on with the unreleased Dreamcast game and most likely purposely stepped on the toes of the mythos because the guys in charge had no intention of it being canon in the first place.

[AlexCalvo]

I can't believe there are still people who defend Legends...  I mean it wasn't even that good of a game.  It screwed up the timeline of Alucard's birth and Lisa's death.  It didn't give us any information about the origin of anything.  It was literally just a quickly made cash in of SoTN's popularity.  LoI might not be perfect but it is certainly a better game and much better origin story that is far more consistent with established canon and ties all the important elements of the mythos together quite nicely.

[Nagumo]

Most of the ire aimed at Legends is because it doesn't fit with the rest of games very well. However, as DarkPrinceAlucard already alluded to, Legends might have been just doing its own thing. There's evidence its intial inclusion in the timeline was accidental and that this did not reflect the intention of the developers at all (at the very least it seems to ignore both CV3, the first two GB games, and SoTN). If you view it as its own story, it's just fine.

[Shiroi Koumori]

I will always view Legends as a Gaiden (side story) since it was not made by the main team. Plus the inclusion of Alucard happened because the ladies who worked on the Legends team love him (I got this from a Japanese magazine interview somewhere out there, maybe Mr. P's site)

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Mr. P's site

Goddamn is that even still around?
It's been forever since I last looked -- I don't even remember the URL.

[X]

Mr. P's Castlevania realm is still around. Pretty sure the guy updates it regularly as I've just visited the site.

[Nagumo]

I will always view Legends as a Gaiden (side story) since it was not made by the main team. Plus the inclusion of Alucard happened because the ladies who worked on the Legends team love him (I got this from a Japanese magazine interview somewhere out there, maybe Mr. P's site)

Oh, that's really interesting because I've never read an interview from someone from the Legends team. I've checked Mr P's site but I couldn't find anything. Do you perhaps remember anything else that might be useful in tracking this interview down?

[Belmontoya]

I don't think there was an established "main team" at that time.