Topic: Chaos And Dracula

[Guy Belmont]

I've Replayed AOS and done the whole best ending and all that jazz. but really taking a hard look at the story, I have to think that the whole Chaos thing just robs the count of his role, that there in fact is an evil  being that he gets his power from. I really Feel that IGA was really off about that. 

Dracula is meant to be the most evil being ever, but when one finds out that he in fact has a boss so to speak, it make  one think, "ohh so he's not that great" It would have been SO much better if he had somehow tricked Chaos some how and stole his power, then its Like "shit... he can do that what else can he do"?  In the long running Cv fan Novel  I've been planning that's what I ran with. Making the Dracula a true Horror and force to be reckon with.

I know that  In LOS  that happen in a round about way that happen. But I feel that  for me at least that was a FAR better idea then having Chaos as this being that others draw power from.

 In fact Gabriel's whole quest was about obtaining  again in a round about away. So I mean is this just me, or do others feel that Chaos really Robbed Dracula of his role.

[X]

I kinda felt the same way too. It's quite common in modern Japanese story-telling to have something even bigger and badder then the current villain show up. It was never an issue decades past, but now it seems to be the 'in' thing that everyone is expected to do; even at the expense of our beloved franchises so fondly remembered. Sadly this has leeched into Castlevania as well. The so-called Chaos boss just doesn't wow me as Dracula had. Drac's the quintessential master villain of CV and he's iconic--going back decades to when the first game was released. There's are reasons why he's the King of Vampires and Lord of the Night. And not just in literature and films.

[theplottwist]

On my opinion, I think it gives his role deeper meaning both as villain and as individual.

Chaos is not "someone", a monster or demon, a "dude sitting on a throne", it is a force of human wickedness. Dracula has hinted previous to any IGA involvement that human wickedness is what brings him back. And that in itself was hinted long before that as part of the Dracula legend, that human negligence with faith ("when the power of Christ weakens") causes Dracula to return. In a way, chaos has been there since the beginning, Aria just gave it a name -- though to be honest I think making an aspect of it into a boss you can kill kinda downplays its "force of human nature you can't really do much about" factor.

Dracula is still the greatest evil there is, make no mistake. Chaos' role is just to demonstrate that humanity will never be free of Dracula's shadow while it continues acting like assholes to each other. The theme here is "humans are the real villains and only they can save themselves." Chaos can't even be "defeated", Soma just broke free from HIS part with it in a quite literal enactment of "human was about ot turn into the real villain but ends up saving himself".

Also on my opinion, thinking Dracula is some Satan acolyte or some kind of "minor Satan" robs him much more of his position as evil incarnate than just thinking Dracula taps on humans' own evil to do his thing. LoS did that, made Dracula into "not so evil as HUGE BIG BIG EVIL SATAN DADDY LOOK HOW EVIL HE IS".

[Guy Belmont]

On my opinion, I think it gives his role deeper meaning both as villain and as individual.

Chaos is not "someone", a monster or demon, a "dude sitting on a throne", it is a force of human wickedness. Dracula has hinted previous to any IGA involvement that human wickedness is what brings him back. And that in itself was hinted long before that as part of the Dracula legend, that human negligence with faith ("when the power of Christ weakens") causes Dracula to return. In a way, chaos has been there since the beginning, Aria just gave it a name -- though to be honest I think making an aspect of it into a boss you can kill kinda downplays its "force of human nature you can't really do much about" factor.

Dracula is still the greatest evil there is, make no mistake. Chaos' role is just to demonstrate that humanity will never be free of Dracula's shadow while it continues acting like assholes to each other. The theme here is "humans are the real villains and only they can save themselves." Chaos can't even be "defeated", Soma just broke free from HIS part with it in a quite literal enactment of "human was about ot turn into the real villain but ends up saving himself".

Also on my opinion, thinking Dracula is some Satan acolyte or some kind of "minor Satan" robs him much more of his position as evil incarnate than just thinking Dracula taps on humans' own evil to do his thing. LoS did that, made Dracula into "not so evil as HUGE BIG BIG EVIL SATAN DADDY LOOK HOW EVIL HE IS".

But at the end of the day it is still a being, higher than Dracula.  It lives in its own realm, and it has the power to chooses the next Dark lord. That tells me that it can think for its self. 

And again I feel that humans being the real bad guys is even more of a cop out.

And  in the end that's were he ( Dracula) draws his  power from an evil force, like how the Belmonts draw there holy power from God. as I'm to understand One of the Main themes in Cv, is the idea of A force for good and a force for evil.

The Belmonts Represent All that good. choosen By God

While Dracula On the other hand Represent All that is Evil. Choosen By Chaos

Thats  why it robs him of its role. And thats why in my work i have him kill Chaos to take his powers right at the start.

Giving him his own power making him The very inbodyment of evil in the world. And like i said thats sort what they did in LOS and they just did it better, they gave Dracula his own role.

As I heard that IGA  said that every time the count comes back Chaos
sawaps out his personly so he only feels Evil, again showing that once again he is controled by Chaos. Unlike Gabriel or my works Dracula.

Again LOS just did it better.

But i mean thats just what i think but i feel that it takes away from The counts role

[theplottwist]

Spoiler because yeah.

(click to show/hide)

But at the end of the day it is still a being, higher than Dracula.  It lives in its own realm, and it has the power to chooses the next Dark lord. That tells me that it can think for its self.

Ok many things to unravel here.

On the scale of "evil beings", Dracula is at the top. Chaos is not a "being", and let's do this one next: The "realm" it lives in isn't actually a "realm" in the sense that this is where an actual "chaos individual" lives. It boggles my mind that the English localization team choose to name it "Chaotic Realm", but the original name of that level is actually "Chaos", just that. The level itself is a representation of chaos, the force Dracula draws power from, and not a "realm" where the "chaos dude who is a power source" is hiding.

That "chaos" enemy is indeed described as a being, but killing that being in no way implies that "chaos the force" has been destroyed. Aria implies even that the final boss is only a connection (that Dawn's bad ending shows that can be remade easier than it was destroyed). It's important to remember that chaos can produce "beings" that can act on their own, as is the case of Death.

Perhaps chaos can think or has some form of sentience, but chaos is nothing without humans. It exists because humans do, and its existence depends on humanity's choices. So, does that mean that humans are "higher than Dracula" in the villainy scale that Dracula belongs in? Of course not, I think you'll agree.

Humans are the "villains" in that they produce the evil matter, but Dracula is an actual agent that forges humanity's byproduct into his evil weapons against humans. We know that as "karma", "law of return", "you reap what you sow", etc.

And in the end that's were he ( Dracula) draws his  power from an evil force, like how the Belmonts draw there holy power from God. as I'm to understand One of the Main themes in Cv, is the idea of A force for good and a force for evil.

I'm with you here, but I don't see how Dracula having a power source for his evil deeds is bad. His magical powers have to be made of "something", and what better than they being made of "chaos" that he weaponizes to do evil?

While Dracula On the other hand Represent All that is Evil. Choosen By Chaos

Dracula isn't "chosen", he chose. Anyone can become Dark Lord, and it takes one hearing the calling of chaos to follow on these footsteps. This is what Aria and Dawn strived so hard to explain, but the first is seen as "nonsensical weeb fanfic" and the second as "useless filler".

Chaos is not going out of its way to pick someone to be its king. It is in fact issuing a calling to EVERYONE, but not everyone can listen or want to follow on that path. It's THEIR choice to become Dark Lord, not "chaos' choice".

Lament also played on that with Leon and Mathias. One had strength of character enough to refuse evil, the other didn't and chose to follow on that path, despite both having suffered similar tragedies. Played again on Curse of Darkness: Hector had strength of character enough to refuse evil, Isaac didn't and ended up a Dracula puppet, despite both having suffered similar tragedies (and Hector's was even similar to Dracula's). It is really a choice one makes that, when one notices was a bad choice, might be too late to undo. Evil is like that

As I heard that IGA  said that every time the count comes back Chaos sawaps out his personly so he only feels Evil, again showing that once again he is controled by Chaos. Unlike Gabriel or my works Dracula.

It's true that Dracula's spirit is influenced by human wickedness, but that's only after he already made the choice to be chaos' champion. Castlevania explains that humans are the only ones with the power to choose their destiny, thus dooming or saving themselves. Dracula isn't human, but he was. And when he was, he chose poorly.

And, I'm pretty sure Gabriel is also a puppet. He's a puppet to everyone from his own wife to God himself. He can't even die from holy power because God doesn't allow it. Gabriel was doomed from before he was even born, as that prophecy tells. Of the two Draculas, IGA's one is the one who had the most free-will until he gave up his humanity, on my opinion. Gabriel didn't have any free-will whatsoever even while he was human.

[zangetsu468]

I think OP is misinterpreting the ending. "Chaos" the being is the metaphysical umbilical cord which connects Dracula to the chaos residing within the hearts of men.

In AOS it's represented as an entity existing only in the higher plane of Castlevania. I know Plottwist has basically written a dissertation on this so I'm not delving any further.

[Super Waffle]

This is like one of those Soul Calibur threads where they debate if Amy and Viola are the same person.

[Guy Belmont]

Spoiler because yeah.

(click to show/hide)

Ok many things to unravel here.

On the scale of "evil beings", Dracula is at the top. There is no one above him. Chaos is not a "being", and let's do this one next: The "realm" it lives in isn't actually a "realm" in the sense that this is where an actual "chaos individual" lives. It boggles my mind that the English localization team choose to name it "Chaotic Realm", but the original name of that level is actually "Chaos", just that. The level itself is a representation of chaos, the force Dracula draws power from, and not a "realm" where the "chaos dude who is a power source" is hiding.

That "chaos" enemy is indeed described as a being, but killing that being in no way implies that "chaos the force" has been destroyed. Aria implies even that the final boss is only a connection (that Dawn's bad ending shows that can be remade easier than it was destroyed). It's important to remember that chaos can produce "beings" that can act on their own, as is the case of Death.

Perhaps chaos can think or has some form of sentience, but chaos is nothing without humans. It exists because humans do, and its existence depends on humanity's choices. So, does that mean that humans are "higher than Dracula" in the villainy scale that Dracula belongs in? Of course not, I think you'll agree.

Humans are the "villains" in that they produce the evil matter, but Dracula is an actual agent that forges humanity's byproduct into his evil weapons against humans. We know that as "karma", "law of return", "you reap what you sow", etc.

I'm with you here, but I don't see how Dracula having a power source for his evil deeds is bad. His magical powers have to be made of "something", and what better than they being made of "chaos" that he weaponizes to do evil?

Dracula isn't "chosen", he chose. Anyone can become Dark Lord, and it takes one hearing the calling of chaos to follow on these footsteps. This is what Aria and Dawn strived so hard to explain, but the first is seen as "nonsensical weeb fanfic" and the second as "useless filler".

Chaos is not going out of its way to pick someone to be its king. It is in fact issuing a calling to EVERYONE, but not everyone can listen or want to follow on that path. It's THEIR choice to become Dark Lord, not "chaos' choice".

Lament also played on that with Leon and Mathias. One had strength of character enough to refuse evil, the other didn't and chose to follow on that path. It is in fact a choice one makes that, when one notices was a bad choice, might be too late to undo. Evil is like that

It's true that Dracula's spirit is influenced by human wickedness, but that's only after he already made the choice to be chaos' champion. Castlevania explains that humans are the only ones with the power to choose their destiny, thus dooming or saving themselves. Dracula isn't human, but he was. And when he was, he chose poorly.

And, I'm pretty sure Gabriel is also a puppet. He's a puppet to everyone from his own wife to God himself. He can't even die from holy power because God doesn't allow it. Gabriel was doomed from before he was even born, as that prophecy tells. Of the two Draculas, IGA's one is the one who had the most free-will until he gave up his humanity, on my opinion. Gabriel didn't have any free-will whatsoever even while he was human.

Right, Right I've put this very badly,  the way I've understand it is

Chaos is satan in the world Of CV, he wickedness , born from humans or not is still an evil force and the count gave in to that  force.
But that force is still calling to everyone. so it does have will.
So even if humans give birth to it,  it sill has a goal their for it still must  think for its self. and its trying to find someone to do its bidding. The count heard the call and came to it.  But in the end it was still chaos will and plan its way of livening.
 thats what i always saw it as.
This is not me being "come at me bro"  I just what to understand.

[theplottwist]

This is not me being "come at me bro"  I just what to understand.

Oh no, I didn't see it like that. I hope I didn't come off like that either. It's all good

[Guy Belmont]

Oh no, I didn't see it like that. I hope I didn't come off like that either. It's all good

No, god no. its just sometime hard on the internet  show ones meaning.

[Dracula9]

there's a much easier way to explain chaos, assuming you're familiar with berserk

CV's chaos is very nearly literally the same as berserk's idea of evil, right down to dracula's choice and relationship to chaos being almost identical to griffith's in this frame of reference

[BLOOD MONKEY]

there's a much easier way to explain chaos, assuming you're familiar with berserk

CV's chaos is very nearly literally the same as berserk's idea of evil, right down to dracula's choice and relationship to chaos being almost identical to griffith's in this frame of reference

dracula is still a more likeable character than griffith

[Dracula9]

dracula is still a more likeable character than griffith

debatable

[zangetsu468]

dracula is still a more likeable character than griffith

I don't believe Dracula is as likeable, he's more iconic because he's been around for a lot longer. But Griffith is the ultimate antagonist to any series, he is layers of complexity wrapped in an enigma, adorned in shiny armour that is causality.

This is why I like Mathias, he is no Griffith, but unlike Vlad, he wasn't born into nobility waiting to inherit a throne. He was a human who has acquired god-like powers through his own means.

There's a lot to like about characters with a strong enough will to rival deities and gods. (yes, we like Belmonts and Guts too)

[Nagumo]

I'm going to be contrarian and offer my own interpretation of the Dracula-Chaos relationship. Simply put, I think the games suggest Chaos is Dracula's evil side, which is being fed by humanity's negative emotions. I don't think it's accurate to say Chaos is a higher being who manipulates Dracula. However, the two did become seperated after the 1999 event, after which Chaos awaited the return of Soma, so the the two could become whole again. The opening of AoS alludes as such: "The pitch black sun is holding chaotic darkness together, trying to rouse a sleeping soul as if looking for its missing other half...  "